98 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Herr Vorragend, on 22 June 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

I'm with bishop Steiner. The uac5 should never jam at the first shot.
Maybe they could adjust the numbers a bit. Have jam quite often.

The mechanic of chaining the jam rate to the heat isn't a good idea. This would lead to even more frustration than the jam rate alone does. Maybe there should be a chaining to the numbers of uacs (of the same kind) that are equipped. But only minimal like about 5%per gun.
Lets say: a global jam rate of 10% (for one gun) and every more adds 5% on top of that

Unless I'm trying to give it wide open fire.

Sorry but when firing at double the effective fire rate your weapon should jam when it damn well feels like it. Just as it does in real life.

[zazz0000]

Great mechanic! PGI can't do it. They tend to go for the "Don't fix what's not broken" approach on things that are "Pretty much broken". Shoe string and bubblegum, and it'll hold.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 June 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Unless I'm trying to give it wide open fire.

Sorry but when firing at double the effective fire rate your weapon should jam when it damn well feels like it. Just as it does in real life.

Well, not the first shot though .

Game mechanics aside, the first shot fired is being fired under normal conditions (since you haven't had the chance to double tap yet). The first shot might as well be the standard A/C5 at that point. That's why the first shot (in my eyes anyway) should be immune to jamming.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 June 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

I agree with Bishop. I think the random jam mechanic is fair (especially for a 1 ton improvement over the standard A/C5). The gun is effectively overtaxed and just can fail at any time. The first trigger pull jam is BS, do maybe that can be addressed, but that's it.

I know people are going to hate me for this (what's new, right?), but isn't MASC kind of the same thing as an Ultra Cannon. I mean MASC over stresses the artificial muscle that moves a mech for added speed. I thought it also had a random fail chance in the field. It could cripple a mech and/or destroy the MASC system.

I'm sure there are people who know far more about MASC than me, but I figured it would have a random chance to do leg damage no matter how often or long it was used.

Sorry for the deviation on topic, it just got me thinking about a seemingly similarity between Ultras and MASC when it comes to the risk in overtaxing a system to make it perform better with a risk.

Regarding MASC, if you fail the check, your Mech's legs lock up and that's it, until you can get it in for repairs, that Mech isn't going anywhere under it's own power. No damage to the legs or anything, you just need a repair crew with special equipment to get your immobilized Mech off the field now, provided it's still YOUR Mech and not the salvage of whomever you were facing

I'm rather glad PGI didn't go with the fail/lock mechanic for MASC, as it's an EVERY time you engage MASC, you have to check for the failure, it can happen the first time you use it or the 100th time, and you aren't going anywhere from that point on, I can NOT see that being even remotely acceptable to the MWO playerbase, can you?

As to the random jam of uACs and happening on the first trigger pull...that IS annoying, and rounds SHOULD be fired when that happens, but it SHOULD still be capable of happening. I've had weapons jam upon first jacking a round into the chamber, there was no getting off a first shot, but that's not something you see with large autocannon, that's more a sidearm thing, sometimes you'll see it with semi or full auto's from manufacturers who shouldn't be making weapons however.

uACs jam due to the vibration of the weapon caused by it's faster firing, simple as that. It's not heat, it's not bad manufacturing, it's the vibration of the weapon that causes the ammunition to not feed into the chamber properly. It shouldn't happen on the first trigger pull and it shouldn't happen on the first double tap either. But at least we don't actually have the TT rule of you only get that double tap IF the 1st shot hit the target

[Almond Brown]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 June 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well, not the first shot though .

Game mechanics aside, the first shot fired is being fired under normal conditions (since you haven't had the chance to double tap yet). The first shot might as well be the standard A/C5 at that point. That's why the first shot (in my eyes anyway) should be immune to jamming.

And as a point of pure interest. Since the gun can be unjammed (5s later) it is not the gun that malfunctioned, but the ammo loader or ammo itself. Thus, yes in fact, the FIRST shell to load can load in a way as to cause a Jam. It is after-all, a random chance event.

[HollowBassman]

Maybe we need to add a rng jam-chance/malfunction to all weapons? The UACs could keep their relatively high percentage chance of jamming and all other weapons could have a very,very low percentage chance of jamming/malfunction. Adds realism as all equipment is capable of failing at any time in real life.

[Whatzituyah]

I guess my correct response to this is that I redline MASC all the time atleast they put a reticle shake on it but still. I use masc to stop instantly in the Gladiator I use Masc instantaneosly accelerate I use it to try to get out of trouble I am guilty of red lining it. If UAC had a bar like that I bet I would red line it aswell this is why it has a random jam chance. But lets say if we had the lowest jam rate possible for the first time you double tap then it doubled, tripled, and quadrupled till it jammed then it resets sounds like a great compromise to me also should reset if you dont double tap in awhile.

[Kristov Kerensky]

HollowBassman, on 22 June 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Maybe we need to add a rng jam-chance/malfunction to all weapons? The UACs could keep their relatively high percentage chance of jamming and all other weapons could have a very,very low percentage chance of jamming/malfunction. Adds realism as all equipment is capable of failing at any time in real life.

Problem is, jamming for ballistics, which is all that would be susceptible to jamming, generally doesn't happen for large bore weapons, it's just not something that happens with them. The uACs jam for, don't laugh!, game balance purposes in TT. The uAC5 for example gives you, at the cost of 1 ton, 2 AC5s worth of damage output per turn. You have to hit with the first shot to get the double tap, and there's a chance it can jam when you do that, and that's how they balanced out the fact that you literally doubled your damage output for 1 ton. They used 'vibration from the rapid fire' as the realistic reason for the jamming, not taking into account the fact that that's not how that works, probably because the guys writing this stuff back then didn't have an effing clue how weapons actually work. I mean come on, they use CLIPS to feed these autocannons!

Whatzituyah, on 22 June 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

I guess my correct response to this is that I redline MASC all the time atleast they put a reticle shake on it but still. I use masc to stop instantly in the Gladiator I use Masc instantaneosly accelerate I use it to try to get out of trouble I am guilty of red lining it. If UAC had a bar like that I bet I would red line it aswell this is why it has a random jam chance. But lets say if we had the lowest jam rate possible for the first time you double tap then it doubled, tripled, and quadrupled till it jammed then it resets sounds like a great compromise to me also should reset if you dont double tap in awhile.

I have redlined my MASC 2 times now, once on purpose after all my weapons had been stripped, I just charged into the enemy and ran around with my MASC going until I ripped my own legs off while they tried to hit me, fun stuff! Second time I hit MASC and JJs and my damn key got stuck and I redlined.

Otherwise, the very easy to hear warnings let me know exactly when I need to let off the MASC, and knowing how quickly my legs will come apart when redlined makes me REAL quick to left off the MASC when I hear those warnings.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

Anyone with one whiff of Common Sense will say "NO".

hahahahaha, two posts above yours I basically wrote the exact same thing. But at least people agree with you.

I'm just kidding of course. I just found the following pages amusing.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Bishop, your thoughts on my rework?

in my Example i using the Bar(M1918) as a reference,
as the Barrel get Hotter(from continuous fire) the Internal Mechanisms get hotter,
as the heat increases they become more Pliable and chance of Shell Misfire and Feed Jam increases,
nether Ammo Feed Jam or Shell Detonation Misfire arnt pretty things to watch happen,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 June 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[LordNothing]

i posted how i think things should work in post #18. so this is more of a rehash. but the other post discribed a balancing method that im not going into again.

jam chance should be on a curve. there is a 'bar' but its more of a variable and not a thing displayed on the hud. every shot you do adds one to the counter. the counter decays over time. the time needed to decay from max jam chance to zero is one cd cycle. the value then maps to the curve each time the gun is fired to give the jam chance. since jam chance decays over time you can space out your double/tripple taps to further reduce your jam chance (though reducing your dps). heres the example curves for each weapon.

...................jam chance
shots,..........uac2,...........uac5,...........uac10,..........uac20
0,................0%,...............0%,..............0%,...............0%
1,................10%,.............15%,............25%,.............33%
2,................25%,.............66%,............100%,...........100%
3,................75%,...........100%
4,................100%

uac2 has an optimal tripple tap, quad tap is risky, 5th tap always jams
uac5 has an optimal double tap, tripple tap is risky, 4th tap always jams
uac10 and 20 can double tap with high jam chance, neither can tripple tap without jamming.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 June 2015 - 06:19 PM.

[Hellcat420]

If they change the uacs like this they should also go back to the tabletop rule where once a uac jams its done for the rest of the game, no more invisible magic gnome techs to unjam them mid match. Uac are too much reward not enough risk over normal ac as it is. A heat bar will be even less risk

Edited by Hellcat420, 22 June 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 June 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

@Bishop, your thoughts on my rework?

in my Example i using the Bar(M1918) as a reference,
as the Barrel get Hotter(from continuous fire) the Internal Mechanisms get hotter,
as the heat increases they become more Pliable and chance of Shell Misfire and Feed Jam increases,
nether Ammo Feed Jam or Shell Detonation Misfire arnt pretty things to watch happen,
Edit-

While it's not a bad idea, I just feel it's too complicated a solution for a simple problem.

If the weapon simply did not jam on the first trigger pull, or as long as proper cooldown was followed, I feel the UAC would be totally fine as is.

Yours is detailed and very thorough, but IMO, it's a matter of the KISS principle (and no, I don't mean to Rock n Roll all night, and party every day). Simple and addressed to the heart of actual issues, and not people preferences, is the way to go.

Considering the tonnage cost over a standard AC there is absolutely nothing wrong with the RNG jam as is, if one knew they could use it as intended, without jamming unless on double tapped, in which case, yes you run the risk.

Sorry, probably not what you wanted to hear.

[Joseph Mallan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 June 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well, not the first shot though .

Game mechanics aside, the first shot fired is being fired under normal conditions (since you haven't had the chance to double tap yet). The first shot might as well be the standard A/C5 at that point. That's why the first shot (in my eyes anyway) should be immune to jamming.

When you say first shot, do you mean the very first trigger pull in the for that weapon in teh match? If so... well, I have had weapons jam on that shot too. If weapons jammed with some rhyme or reason we could just eject the offending casing before it jammed!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

When you say first shot, do you mean the very first trigger pull in the for that weapon in teh match? If so... well, I have had weapons jam on that shot too. If weapons jammed with some rhyme or reason we could just eject the offending casing before it jammed!

Yea, basically the very first trigger pull shouldn't jam. I would imagine a freshly deployed mech with 1 in the chamber shouldn't have had a load error at the mechbay before it left. I'd imagine jamming due to a load malfunction could happen after that.

It would be nice though if the game treated it as a load error though. As it is, the jam happens when you pull the trigger.

I'd rather the jam happen after the shot left, and while the new round is being loaded. That way if the weapon shows the Ultra ready to fire, you know it will fire. Once the firing is complete, then the gun can jam and halt the cool down. To me, that still cuts DPS due to random jam chance, but helps take some frustration out if the mechanic because if you know the gun shows ready, it will fire.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

When you say first shot, do you mean the very first trigger pull in the for that weapon in teh match? If so... well, I have had weapons jam on that shot too. If weapons jammed with some rhyme or reason we could just eject the offending casing before it jammed!

Uh oh, here comes the realism brigade...

Fine, weapon jams whenever it wants, and just like in real life, you can't unjam the weapon until you field strip it or have mechanics take care of it. Simply put, the weapon is useless for the rest of the match. Buuuuuuut then people would complain that this would make the weapons useless and never put on mechs. Oh the tears! So much for realism.

First, don't cherry pick "realism" in a "fantasy" shooter that can't explain how the ammo in the toes of a mech magically crawl all the way up through internal skeletal structure and muscle myomers into the weapon into the torsos or arms. Second, don't cherry pick being ok with everything else PGI's using bars to help the player use (Gauss Charge, Heat Indicator that ONLY shuts off past 100%, the new MASC bar) while the only thing left to RNG chance is the UAC jam rate. Not only is that biased, it's stupid.

[Kristov Kerensky]

00ohDstruct, on 23 June 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Uh oh, here comes the realism brigade...

Fine, weapon jams whenever it wants, and just like in real life, you can't unjam the weapon until you field strip it or have mechanics take care of it. Simply put, the weapon is useless for the rest of the match. Buuuuuuut then people would complain that this would make the weapons useless and never put on mechs. Oh the tears! So much for realism.

First, don't cherry pick "realism" in a "fantasy" shooter that can't explain how the ammo in the toes of a mech magically crawl all the way up through internal skeletal structure and muscle myomers into the weapon into the torsos or arms. Second, don't cherry pick being ok with everything else PGI's using bars to help the player use (Gauss Charge, Heat Indicator that ONLY shuts off past 100%, the new MASC bar) while the only thing left to RNG chance is the UAC jam rate. Not only is that biased, it's stupid.

Have you got a coherent logical point to make or do you just like to keep bashing people directly and indirectly?

uACs have a random chance to jam as a balance point, a carry over from the TT system where it originated from for the exact same reason, balance. uAC5 is 1 ton heavier than an AC5, but it gives you literally double the firepower, so there's a drawback to that, random jam chance. Bypassing that by giving us a visual indicator of WHEN it will jam totally defeats the entire purpose of the jam chance in the first place, which is exactly why it's being asked for, so that the jamming can be be totally ignored!

Here's an idea, come up with a sound logical reason why this balancing feature should be removed OTHER THAN you want it gone, ok?

[Andi Nagasia]

@Bishop
You know how I am I'd rather you be honest with me and tell me your thoughts,
Then you tell me what I want to hear and the topic get nowhere,

[Navy Sixes]

MikeBend, on 09 June 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

I kinda like UACs the way they are now - random jam is a high risk, high reward. Bad if you have only 1 UAC, good if you have 2, superb, if 3 or more. I have been running 2xUAC5 Shawk for ages, and without random jams, that thing would be a monster. Which is bad, imo. No need to lower TTK.

Agreed. I can see the appeal for some, but that 15% chance of a jam is the price one pays for that kind of firepower. I think the reason it bothers so many people is the RNG-factor. You can't really plug the UAC5 into a spreadsheet and calculate its meta-potential as it stands now. It's something you can't control or account for, and that drives some people batty.