191 replies to this topic

[Mirkk Defwode]

Johnny Z, on 10 June 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

I think 3 years in not alot of time to make a video game in this very new industry. I also think this game is far from complete and is far from being the triple A game it should be. I also think this may be one of the best Triple A games some day, maybe top 3 to 5. Mechwarrior could even get right to the top in time with some awsome expansions, but again that takes time.

Mechwarrior is already at the top for meaningfull character customization which is the mechbay.(room for improvement)

Also at the top with great combat along with maybe a few others. (room for improvement)

Mechwarrior lacks just about everything else at the moment.

3 Years is more than adequate time to develop a title.

Pillars of Eternity was developed in around 2 years.

A Solo developer working on Void Destroyer produced it in 16 Months. He's still making adjustments and adding content but his core systems were in place and working about 2 months after a successful Kickstarter.

Annual AAA titles condense the work flow by adding tons of personnel which I recognize PGI can't do. But their development pace as compared to most Indie devs is actually fairly slow based on observations across the industry.

Now I don't know their total headcount, pipeline, or workflow so I can't say the issues they are having with productivity aren't rooted in some way there.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Kiiyor, on 10 June 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

...
Not only can they never please everyone - they can never please ANYONE that assumes a combative stance at the start of a discussion. "So, Russ, you really feel that the current snails pace of development is acceptable?" Did you really phrase it that way? What the crap kind of question is that? How would you react if someone spoke to you that way? I can answer it for you: probably with anger, or more appropriately, you wouldn't answer it at all. If that's the way you phrased it here, I think I can predict the tone you used when you spoke to Russ.

Why would he bother replying to a questions that is so clearly framed to start an argument? If you want to have a discussion, at least make it worth his time to hit the character limit for a tweet.

Sigh. Man, my high horse is teetering today.

While the majority of posters here understand how to phrase questions and engender discussion, there is unfortunately a very vocal minority that don't want a 'discussion' - they want to burn an effigy.

While I agree with your message, I think their activity being so much greater on other social media outlets but not engaging on the forums. Even when they have the means to truly moderate responses. Admin permissions for this forum would allow you to outright delete non-constructive posts or edit junk that is inflammatory.

There have been many valid discussions on the forums that were insight and informative with good suggestions. Often those are even moderated by the forum users that could help aid in the design direction toward what users are hoping for.

I've seen my share of vitriol on these forums as well. And I agree that's an issue with a grossly embittered group of players that are very vocal about their dissatisfaction.

I can honestly say though balance conversations with Stjobe are insightful. Even my debates with Joseph Mallan as we often have opposing views are valuable. More often than not we don't resort to name calling. I've personally been part of extensive threads that have as much sarcasm and vile insults slung about as they do good information. The economic thread that went on for 30+ pages was invaluable as to qualitative feedback for the current rewards system and how the end user is seeing. We don't have the quantitative numbers to evaluate it from the other side to find that middle ground.

[EvilCow]

Mirkk Defwode, on 11 June 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Admin permissions for this forum would allow you to outright delete non-constructive posts or edit junk that is inflammatory.

This is not the problem.

Mirkk Defwode, on 11 June 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

There have been many valid discussions on the forums that were insight and informative with good suggestions. Often those are even moderated by the forum users that could help aid in the design direction toward what users are hoping for.

This is the problem.

[Alistair Winter]

EvilCow, on 11 June 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

This is not the problem.

This is the problem.

Yeah, I think people forget about the massive, massive number of constructive threads made in 2012 and 2013 when the players were very optimistic and enthusiastic. If you go through the archive, you find hundreds, maybe thousands of threads where the OP spent hours looking at some gameplay balance issue, with statistics and graphs and suggestions for improvements, or really detailed ideas for what Community warfare should be like, what future maps should look like, what the Clan Invasion should be like. And then dozens of people would actively engage in constructive discussion to add to these ideas.

The constructive, positive threads didn't disappear over night, nor was the community always the way it is today. But over time, people realized that actual player input was so minimal that it simply wasn't worth their time. And today, when people bring up issues they want to fix, they're told that they're beating a dead horse. Which is often true, but it does explain the lack of constructive threads compared to 2012 and 2013.

[Mirkk Defwode]

EvilCow, on 11 June 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

This is not the problem.

This is the problem.

I agree aggressive moderation through the deletion of posts that are of a non-constructive nature or editing them to only feature the constructive feedback isn't an issue. Just means whoever is the moderator will endure a lot of contempt from the people who end up getting moderated for their comments.

But threads like http://mwomercs.com/...munity-warfare/ shouldn't be outright ignored. There is good constructive feedback in there. There also isn't a whole lot of vile backlash and several people have commented on those that are not putting in constructive feedback to either change their wording or shove-off. This is what the community should be doing if we want to see improvements...

Alistair Winter, on 11 June 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I think people forget about the massive, massive number of constructive threads made in 2012 and 2013 when the players were very optimistic and enthusiastic. If you go through the archive, you find hundreds, maybe thousands of threads where the OP spent hours looking at some gameplay balance issue, with statistics and graphs and suggestions for improvements, or really detailed ideas for what Community warfare should be like, what future maps should look like, what the Clan Invasion should be like. And then dozens of people would actively engage in constructive discussion to add to these ideas.

The constructive, positive threads didn't disappear over night, nor was the community always the way it is today. But over time, people realized that actual player input was so minimal that it simply wasn't worth their time. And today, when people bring up issues they want to fix, they're told that they're beating a dead horse. Which is often true, but it does explain the lack of constructive threads compared to 2012 and 2013.

I was around during some of those constructive threads, and I wrote a few of them myself. One of the reasons I stopped was because there was no impression that anything being said by anyone was getting a whole lot of acknowledgement.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 11 June 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I think people forget about the massive, massive number of constructive threads made in 2012 and 2013 when the players were very optimistic and enthusiastic. If you go through the archive, you find hundreds, maybe thousands of threads where the OP spent hours looking at some gameplay balance issue, with statistics and graphs and suggestions for improvements, or really detailed ideas for what Community warfare should be like, what future maps should look like, what the Clan Invasion should be like. And then dozens of people would actively engage in constructive discussion to add to these ideas.

The constructive, positive threads didn't disappear over night, nor was the community always the way it is today. But over time, people realized that actual player input was so minimal that it simply wasn't worth their time. And today, when people bring up issues they want to fix, they're told that they're beating a dead horse. Which is often true, but it does explain the lack of constructive threads compared to 2012 and 2013.

This bittervet remembers. Pepperidge Farm remembers too.

[Kristov Kerensky]

LordBraxton, on 11 June 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

no they didn't. they really didn't at all. they've never listened.

Actually, PGI did and still does listen to the players, they just don't listen to YOU, you being the small vocal minority on the forums who KNOW what it takes to make this game great, just ask them, they'll tell you, complete with glossy full color 8x10 photographs, spreadsheets, and complex graphs all based on their knowledge and data gained by asking Mr Fluffy.

We got 3d PoV because the PLAYERBASE wanted it. We had what, 9 thousand of us on the forums who voted against it, but that's not the playerbase, that's a minority population inside the playerbase.

Lots of people interact with PGI without using the forums, they have done so since before CB and will continue to do so. Obviously they are able to get through to PGI better than the people on the forums, ever stop to wonder WHY that is so?

I look at the Suggestions section and I laugh, seriously, I laugh at what I see. All the data and 'truths' presented there by people who don't have a friggen clue, they see a 2x3" section of a 100x100' painting and presume to know what the full image is. I see that in General and other sections of these forums, I've been seeing it since these forums first started up. And I see it in other game forums as well, it's not peculiar to the MWO playerbase, it's pretty widespread.

THIS IS NOT OUR GAME!

Do try and remember that boys and girls, this is PGI's game, not ours, they simply allow us to play it and occasionally listen to our suggestions, when they fit in with their own ideas and plans, but it is NOT our game.

The OP got blocked on Twitter due to his aggressive attitude, that's crystal effing clear. Might want to remember that, if you go being all aggressive and have nothing constructive to actually say, STFU, you will not get the results you wanted, unless getting blocked IS your objective.

[Almond Brown]

Rhazien, on 10 June 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

I completely respect people quitting, temporarily or otherwise.

What I can't respect is throwing a temper tantrum on the forums before doing so. Reasons are fine, but a half page QQ fest isn't.

Worst of the lot, the people who complain, threaten, and b***h only to do it again the next week, never actually quitting. That just becomes thread after thread of the same crap.

And I always wonder, if in WarThunder (it was used as an example above) the Planes and Tanks were not considered as actual Content, like many say the Mechs of MWO aren't actual Content, then what the **** would the content of that game be? Just the Maps?

How can a Map be "awesome" when you fly and fight over it at 25,000 feet in an airplane? Must be some cool airports I guess.

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 June 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Pjwned, on 10 June 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

A big part of the "PGI sucks" attitude comes from their refusal to fix many long-standing issues and general incompetence with the work they do actually bother with. If they stepped it up and actually bothered fixing things like terrible, almost never used weapons then the "PGI sucks" attitude would be much less prevalent.

It's an attitude that PGI brought upon themselves.

So your panties are still "bunched" over Flamers and Machine Guns then? Flamers, I got you, but late in a Match, after some heavy enemy contact, one of the things I hate the hear the most in my damaged Mech is MG fire... It really pisses Betty off, and I don't like when Betty gets all crabby.

As to the OP. It really is best to learn to pick your "battles", versus just fighting about "everything". Just ask that kid who cried Wolf a lot... Ok wait. You will have to ask his Uncle as it ended poorly for him as well.

[Almond Brown]

TLBFestus, on 10 June 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

People need to remember who caused the "negative" attitude of the community in the first place.

When closed beta started it was all rosy and hugs all around.

It took some time between broken promises, insults to the Founders, and general mismanagement for PGI to create the skeptical group that exists today despite the rallying cry of the White Knights for this game.

I love the game, I just don't have any trust at all for the Developers. Funny thing is I know they love our money, but even then they still seem determined to slowly strangle us to death.

Only the weak minded and easily excited Founders decide that they had been "insulted". Sorry, not all the Founders felt they were insulted, ever. But keep making **** up, that is what this place is very very good at... and it works too apparently.

[Johnny Z]

Almond Brown, on 11 June 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Only the weak minded and easily excited Founders decide that they had been "insulted". Sorry, not all the Founders felt they were insulted, ever. But keep making **** up, that is what this place is very very good at... and it works too apparently.

His reply is not correct but legit "Founders" deserve respect for sticking with Mechwarrior this long and remaining positive and constructive if they did manage to do that. Even those that got impatient deserve to to be humoured a bit since although 3 years isnt a long time, it is a long time to wait for a full AAA game that Mechwarior was said to become.

Founders that just got in to be a bad influence and create negativity, well they should be ignored.

[Almond Brown]

Lindonius, on 10 June 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

This thread is hilarious!

Well done all involved.

Yup. In a nutshell. Russ, the owner of the Company is expected to spend 9 hours on the Forums, then 9 hours on Tweeter, and spend 6 hours sleeping a day to appease all the hard done by players of MWO.

Not sure when he is supposed to actually manage the business... but the players don't give a rats arse about that right.... LOL!

[Almond Brown]

Deathlike, on 10 June 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I'll put it this way.

Russ never ceases to amaze me.

That is why, we'll have more or less what we already have in 2015, going into 2016.

I'm starting to forget what the point of CW Phase 3 is, due to the non-interaction about it.

And I will bet $25.00 US dollars that Russ is constantly amazed by how all the "ArmChair Dev's" on these Forums think they ******* somehow know better...?

We need some folks to post their Game Dev related resumes and currently operational games on here so we can help with them, like they want to help PGI...

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 June 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MW2 was in dev for 5 years before it went gold, still released with a lot of bugs, but it did do amazingly well.

WoW was in dev for even longer, released with a metric crapton of bugs, still doing well today and STILL not a finished product.

MW3 was in dev for less than 2 years, bombed.

MW4 was in dev for less than 2 years, commercially viable, not a success.

Yes, you can indeed put out a minimally viable product in a very short time frame, but that product will be crap, the history of video games is full of wonderful examples of this.

[Almond Brown]

Alistair Winter, on 10 June 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

That was a major leap of inference on behalf of the OP. He basically said "Russ, you should stop talking to fans on Twitter and start talking to them on the forum", to which Russ responded "Ok, I'll stop talking to you on Twitter."

So rest assured, Russ didn't actually say that he didn't intend to communicate on the forums.

Then again, we kind of noticed that he's not posting on the forums anyway

So monthly updates and Town Halls posted by Russ here don't count? The biggest issue is Russ figured out that he cannot win, even when in agreement with 98% of folks on here becasue of the other 2%. Sadly, the butthurt among us are also very mobile and he has to deal with them everywhere he goes, not just here.

Why should he have to deal with the same "{Richard Cameron}" about the exact same **** in more than one place.

As noted. This was the place to be and then the toxic came. Sadly "toxic" chases Dev's (on most forums given enough toxic time) and there is not apparent way to remove the toxin. if we truly want the Dev Team back, then it is incumbent upon the Forum Community to flush out the Toxin. Good luck with that.

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 June 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 June 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

How is that better? Thats the reply Id expect from a 13 year old

When dealing with children, even adults have to come down to their maturity level sometimes so what is said really sinks in...

[Deathlike]

Almond Brown, on 11 June 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

And I will bet $25.00 US dollars that Russ is constantly amazed by how all the "ArmChair Dev's" on these Forums think they ******* somehow know better...?

Well, I am readily assured that Russ doesn't know best either, due to various actions or inactions to certain things (and many of it non-balance related)... I mean we "could" use past examples (non-MWO related), but that is neither here nor there.

Quote

We need some folks to post their Game Dev related resumes and currently operational games on here so we can help with them, like they want to help PGI...

You don't need to have a "game dev" diploma or certification to know some semblance of balance. Using that argument is fallacious in itself, due to many games and mods don't need that level of "experience". You work a mechanic in... however best you can, and then work the numbers around that. It's not complicated. I doubt many people that do modding have "a degree in gaming" (these things are real), but people who play a lot of different games tend to have a vision of sorts of how it should be balanced (despite the imperfections).

However, you cannot STRICTLY use spreadsheet numbers to do balance. For instance, IS Large Pulse Lasers were tweaked before launch... and it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this particular change was mostly a nerf and the only excuse used was that it had to be "normalized".

Oddly enough, the same person directly involved with the LPL change tried to make a crazy-moment level change to the Clan ER Large... and increased 3 factors that would make the weapon untenable for the majority of players. Fortunate for us, he was removed (is he still removed?) from doing balance in this game.

The thing is, you might have a degree or a job in field, but doesn't mean you're good at doing it. In gaming, people must play a lot of a matches and have a overview/global perspective at how balance affects things. While I do write articles stating things (it's my POV and therefore my opinion), but I try to be objective and clear what's wrong with a particular weapon or mech, and state my case... and not trying to strictly play SpreadsheetWarrior. I have to play MANY games to get a feel... while playing with good and not-so average players. It's always an ongoing discussion and thought, but I'm willing to defend my position which is what I rarely see done in any balance related post by PGI.

TL;DR You don't need a degree to figure out what's wrong in the game, but you also can't be totally myopic and always agree with what PGI says either.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 June 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Sarlic]

Remember folks: the only reason why this game is still alive is because some are crazy enough to spend thousands, litterally thousands of dollars for a loved franchise.

I get it for tabletop cards. But this game? Not really.

Sturdy old playerbase!

I just love it when PGI announce things we should have been in the game since day one as a 'new feature.'

But hey; it's your money.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 June 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Kristov Kerensky, on 11 June 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

*gold defense force post

You're a stranger, so what do I care? Thanks for being 110% presumptuous.

Considering I see forum regulars in almost every match I'm in, I think the forums represent more than a vocal minority.

Russ only listens to positive feedback, if you critique him, he gets defensive.

Just because they are 'professionals' doesnt mean they know what theyre doing.

I work in the mental health field, and trust me, most of the psychiatrists I deal with are hacks. These are people with their PHD's, but they dont stay up to date with research, and that's why there are hundreds of thousands of people addicted to benzos in this country with no knowledge of the nuerological side effects.

PGI is an arrogant company, like all young money. Even if theyll be broke in a year, they sure spent a lot on their facilities, just look at all the money blown on their office decorations alone. lol. there's where my founders cash went!

PGI has a track record of ****** games, and have made huge strides backwards with MWO since closed beta. PGI is all quantity no quality. We have tons of mechs, a few more maps, but markedly worse graphics and immersion.

IT'S OK THOUGH! They'll never listen to me, and I sure as hell won't listen to you after that drivel, so these forums really do exist to just vent into a vacuum.

I don't have the answers for PGI, we parted mindsets almost 3 years ago, so in my eyes PGI has dug a hole that theyre gonna end up rotting in.

Edited by LordBraxton, 11 June 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Deathlike, on 10 June 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I'll put it this way.

Russ never ceases to amaze me.

That is why, we'll have more or less what we already have in 2015, going into 2016.

I'm starting to forget what the point of CW Phase 3 is, due to the non-interaction about it.

we finnished phase 2 ? so what was it and what is phase 3 ?