126 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Kyocera, on 13 June 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

I definitely agree with 50% speed loss simply because it's totally warranted.

I'm 100% neutral between clammers and spheroids but for a Spheroid to be STD engine carries a massive weight penalty, almost too much to mitigate in the grand scheme of balancing. Clammers have an XL by default but will survive 1x ST blowout but not 2x.

Still though, despite locked engine types I think that (in the grand overall balance of things) the Clams have the overall advantage.

I truly do think (when it comes to 1:1 balancing) that IS needs a knees up.

if this happens then all IS quirks will have to be Nerfed by 50%,
or all Clan Quirks would have to be Buffed by 50%,

Why? because with out that IS would Dominate,
also many Clan Mechs would be useless once you lost a ST,
for Clan Lights KFX & ADR speed would Drop to 48kph,
NVA MDD SMN & GAR speed would drop to 40Kph,
so like being legged, but on ST loss,

so if they did this and you go Clan,
(CT or St or Leg = Death),

[Armorine]

Khobai, on 13 June 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

You already lose half your internal DHS plus all the DHS in the side torso and arm. Its already severe. How much more of a penalty do you want on cooling?

I would rather see something like engine crits added. Part of the problem with not having engine crits is you have to fully destroy both side torsos to take out the engine. Where in tabletop a clan mech can die if it has one destroyed side torso and then its engine suffers a critical hit.

i back you here 100 percent. cooling penalties will have little affect on a clanner thats suffered a blowout. need somthing besides just protecting that side to protect the CT. engine crits would make it way more interesting. maybe they could even add a TINY chance for overloads from major crit engine hits. ...... maybe im just dreaming though

[Tincan Nightmare]

Mystere, on 13 June 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

Haven't you noticed yet? No penalty is enough unless it outright kills the Clan Mech, or makes it practically so.

In the mean time, I'll go butcher some poor souls in the solo queue to vent ...

I know that usually when it comes down to balance issues it usually splits down to players that are pro IS/Clan going back and forth throwing claims/rants at each other, but don't you think this statement is somewhat unreasonable? As its currently stands an IS mech dies when it loses a side torso with XL, while the Clan mech just shrugs it off and keeps going. Yes it loses any weapons/equipment in that arm or torso, but it still can move and fight while the IS mech is dead. So is it so unreasonable that their be some penalty to losing a large portion of your engine?

[Alan Davion]

Mystere, on 13 June 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Don't be fooled. That is what their constant and endless whining is all about -- make you and PGI give in in frustration. Don't fall for it. Be resolute. We already know PGI is very weak-kneed.

The same goes for you.

I call BS.

If PGI were as weak-kneed as you say they are, they would in all likelihood have went ahead and re-opened the Phoenix mechs for sale even after the poll ended.

Maybe if people would just STFU about some of the stupid, inane crap that they think needs to be fixed, when in actuality it doesn't, and complain about the stuff that really /does/ need to be fixed, and I'm talking the core game mechanics, maybe then we'd all get some real results, and we'd all be a lot happier.

For instance, fix the GD hit-reg system and stop this stupid 'shoot the front, damage the rear' bologna.

[Nightshade24]

If IS get LFE's / Clan XL like changes.
Then you better swing all IS quirks the other way.

Can you not comprehand what an XL stalker would be on the battlefield?

The thing is as it stands IS XL's and Standards have plenty of advantages to the Clans
Ranging from the fact Standards are more durable then Clan XL's and the ability to change engines.

IS light mechs will be around 3 times more harder to kill making it nearly impossible to fend of a light rush in CW anymore (which IS can only do, clans do not have the ability to do light rushes in CW)

I mean this is rather in my mind a stupid change. I have around 140 mechs and around about 100 of those are IS. I use standard and xl engines on all sorts of chassis and the only reason IS xl engines look bad is due to the meta perspective.


Oh and I do not think most of the IS armour quirks should exist. For eg the battlemaster 2C... has more armour then a 100 ton mech while being a 85....

[Andi Nagasia]

Engine Crits Exist By the way,
was playing a TBR lost my RT was getting hit by IS AC5 on HPG,
had CT armor, got hit 3 times, 1st lost last of CT armor and some damage,
the other 2 hits killed me, which is imposable if Engines cant be Crited,

Yes i have Video i just havent Uploaded it to youTube as i thought it was common,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 June 2015 - 08:58 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Oh and I do not think most of the IS armour quirks should exist. For eg the battlemaster 2C... has more armour then a 100 ton mech while being a 85....

some armor quirks would make sense though.

like I fully support the atlas' side torsos getting armored up more.

Quote

Engine Crits Exist By the way,
was playing a TBR lost my RT was getting hit by IS AC5 on HPG,
had CT armor, got hit 3 times, 1st lost last of CT armor and some damage,
the other 2 hits killed me, which is imposable if Engines cant be Crited,

Engine crits dont exist. 100% sure on that.

Its possible you suffered an ammo explosion if you were carrying ammo.

Edited by Khobai, 13 June 2015 - 09:00 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Pjwned, on 13 June 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

I agree there should be an extra penalty, but I don't agree with 50% speed loss because that's excessive.

Anything less and people wouldn't care. Most clan mechs being shot dont even twist lol

Timber is running around at 90
10% 81kph (still faster than most IS heavy mechs
20% 72 kph (most my heavy mechs are about this speed)
30% 63 kph (little slower than pre speed tweak)
40% 54 kph (dire speed)
50% 45 kph little faster than a legged mech. (not 15kph when getting shot) It can still fight but its hurting.


I wouldn't care about dropping a side until 40% Most the game i will be running full speed anyway.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 June 2015 - 09:20 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 13 June 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Engine crits dont exist. 100% sure on that.

Its possible you suffered an ammo explosion if you were carrying ammo.

Not true, they exist.

They just have no effect other than that 15% Crit damage bonus.




As for the topic, no higher than 20% penalties. You're losing 2 of 10 pieces of engine shielding; not part of the engine itself.


Also...for the IS Light engine, make it follow TT engine rules. Same engine you'll find in Clams, with choices. Multiple of mech tonnage.
Don't like it? Don't keep Mr Gargles constrained with his 400.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 13 June 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Engine crits dont exist.

Its possible you suffered an ammo explosion.

i had ammo but its wasnt Ammo explosion that kiled me but AC5,
also i didnt have any ammo in my CT which was the last thing shot out,

[Mystere]

Tincan Nightmare, on 13 June 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I know that usually when it comes down to balance issues it usually splits down to players that are pro IS/Clan going back and forth throwing claims/rants at each other, but don't you think this statement is somewhat unreasonable? As its currently stands an IS mech dies when it loses a side torso with XL, while the Clan mech just shrugs it off and keeps going. Yes it loses any weapons/equipment in that arm or torso, but it still can move and fight while the IS mech is dead. So is it so unreasonable that their be some penalty to losing a large portion of your engine?

The only reasonable suggestion I have seen so far is implementing real criticals.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I drive almost pure IS. I do not want this... it would render every STD build obsolete. Considering that most builds are essentially helpless once they've lost both side torso sections, there'd be no reason not to run XL on everything except the very tankiest of Atlas and Cent configs or... well, pick your favorite zombie here. Right now, it's nice that some 'Mechs benefit from each type of engine, and that some can go either way.

If Light Fusion engines ever make it in, the same problem will crop up. I'd lay good money that usage of STDs would drop to virtually nil overnight- it's a handful of slots for enough tonnage to squeeze in a few more weapons or sinks. 95% of the time, that's going to outweigh the risk of death if you lose both sides... if that weren't the case, then TBRs would not have been the apex heavy chassis for as long as they were (and arguably still are), with such easily destroyed STs.

The advantage of an IS chassis in this game is that you can modify everything but the hardpoints and hitboxes to suit your needs. Clan 'Mechs have an inherently tanky and lightweight engine design, coupled with ES and FF that take up half the normal slots, and hardpoints that can be mixed and matched to taste. That's a good foundation for balance and variety. IS engines do not need buffing, except in the area where all engines need buffing- to make the first 10 DHS on every chassis true DHS rather than having to mount 1-6 1.4 sinks externally under a 250 rating.

Other than that, keep 'em as they are. There are valid reasons to take STD or XL, and it is often a tough choice... and it should remain so. That's the price we pay for being able to actually change our engines out for the rating we want or need.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 June 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

Have you ever considered that the IP itself might be wrong? There are a few "oops" moments in the IP that they had to band-aid over with new TROs or fluff inclusions to explain the discrepancy. The LB-10X is the only LB that is lighter and longer-ranged than its AC counterpart, for example, because they realized how broken that would be if applied to the entire range. They even had to completely redo Battle Value because the old system was not tuned for the lop-sided tech bases, and as far as I've read the 2.0 system still isn't quite up to the task.

Besides, MWO already is a generic mech shooting game. The only true BattleTech-related items are the 'Mechs and the item names. There's no story here, no asymmetrical warfare, no lore-consistent player or equipment behavior, and there won't be any. Live with it, enjoy what it does right, and let the game be made the best for what it is instead of trying to bend it into something it will not ever be.

With that out of the way, I have a big, fat NO to making IS XL behave identically to CXL. That's super lame.

Well, I'm just so sick and tired of all of these calls for nerfing Clans into the ground and buffing the IS to invincibility. Just ten more freaking days and I'm outta here to enjoy my summer traveling ... some on the beach ... with great food ... and great wine ... and my spanking new Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog when I get back.

Edited by Mystere, 13 June 2015 - 09:12 PM.

[Dr Hobo]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 13 June 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

I drive almost pure IS. I do not want this... it would render every STD build obsolete. Considering that most builds are essentially helpless once they've lost both side torso sections, there'd be no reason not to run XL on everything except the very tankiest of Atlas and Cent configs or... well, pick your favorite zombie here. Right now, it's nice that some 'Mechs benefit from each type of engine, and that some can go either way.

If Light Fusion engines ever make it in, the same problem will crop up. I'd lay good money that usage of STDs would drop to virtually nil overnight- it's a handful of slots for enough tonnage to squeeze in a few more weapons or sinks. 95% of the time, that's going to outweigh the risk of death if you lose both sides... if that weren't the case, then TBRs would not have been the apex heavy chassis for as long as they were (and arguably still are), with such easily destroyed STs.

The advantage of an IS chassis in this game is that you can modify everything but the hardpoints and hitboxes to suit your needs. Clan 'Mechs have an inherently tanky and lightweight engine design, coupled with ES and FF that take up half the normal slots, and hardpoints that can be mixed and matched to taste. That's a good foundation for balance and variety. IS engines do not need buffing, except in the area where all engines need buffing- to make the first 10 DHS on every chassis true DHS rather than having to mount 1-6 1.4 sinks externally under a 250 rating.

Other than that, keep 'em as they are. There are valid reasons to take STD or XL, and it is often a tough choice... and it should remain so. That's the price we pay for being able to actually change our engines out for the rating we want or need.

It would be nice if engine heatsinks properly worked after all this time. It's been how long now? I remember the days of old when DHS didn't work at all...

[Monkey Lover]

FupDup, on 13 June 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

That might sound good on-paper, but in gameplay that would seriously suck to play. For example, an Adder or Kit Fox would be restricted to 58.3 kph...ouch.

A Clan XL nerf should absolutely be a part of the solution, but just nerfing the CXL alone can't solve our issues. Technically, if we look at it on-paper, you could say that even making the Clan mech DIE with its side loss would still be superior to an IS XL engine, because it only takes 2 critical slots per side torso instead of 3...that's a pretty dangerous line of thought to embark upon.

Ouch is right but running a mech at 58.3 wouldnt suck. It would just be much harder and would make you care about not losing a side. I have ran around at 40kph with the stupid 15kph when getting shot. 58kph is more than doable for few minutes out of the whole game.

[Andi Nagasia]

Monkey Lover, on 13 June 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

Ouch is right but running a mech at 58.3 wouldnt suck. It would just be much harder and would make you care about not losing a side. I have ran around at 40kph with the stupid 15kph when getting shot. 58kph is more than doable for few minutes out of the whole game.

Problem for Clan Lights, STORY TIME
so i was playing an Adder Energy Build,
poked out to shoot, fired laser, before i could finish my Duration and turn away,
TDR put 3LL in my Face, my ST was like Ok i can die now right, ok dieing now, POP,...
so 1 poke and i was 1 ST down half my Weapons down but at least i could get the hell out,
with 30%-50% speed reduction, my Adr would have been going 48Kph, so no running away,

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 13 June 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

Well, I'm just so sick and tired of all of these calls for nerfing Clans into the ground and buffing the IS to invincibility. Just ten more freaking days and I'm outta here to enjoy my summer traveling ... some on the beach ... with great food ... and great wine ... and my spanking new Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog when I get back.

Well, the IS do need a buff. The two sides should be on equal footing in practice even if they go about killing the enemy in a different manner. That manner was intended to be with zerg rush numerical superiority, but that's been thrown out the window by PGI so we have to do it with a different set of trade-offs, most likely applied to the number and performance of items they can mount on their machines versus the items the Inner Sphere can mount on theirs.

The problem I see on this forum is that "nerfing Clans into the ground" seems to be an obfuscation of "Clans aren't as obviously better than Inner Sphere as the lore says they should be and I am upset by it."

Dr Hobo, on 13 June 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

It would be nice if engine heatsinks properly worked after all this time. It's been how long now? I remember the days of old when DHS didn't work at all...

What do you mean by work properly? Are you referring to how engine sinks are 2.0x while the rest are 1.4x, that the initial 10 aren't all in the engine, or something else? I wasn't around during the Closed Beta.

Andi Nagasia, on 13 June 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

Problem for Clan Lights, STORY TIME
so i was playing an Adder Energy Build,
poked out to shoot, fired laser, before i could finish my Duration and turn away,
TDR put 3LL in my Face, my ST was like Ok i can die now right, ok dieing now, POP,...
so 1 poke and i was 1 ST down half my Weapons down but at least i could get the hell out,
with 30%-50% speed reduction, my Adr would have been going 48Kph, so no running away,

I once poked out to shoot with my Locust, saw a Gauss Jager, and whirled around to tank the damage to the arm. With a 30-50% speed reduction, I would still be dead.

[Monkey Lover]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 June 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

Problem for Clan Lights, STORY TIME
so i was playing an Adder Energy Build,
poked out to shoot, fired laser, before i could finish my Duration and turn away,
TDR put 3LL in my Face, my ST was like Ok i can die now right, ok dieing now, POP,...
so 1 poke and i was 1 ST down half my Weapons down but at least i could get the hell out,
with 30%-50% speed reduction, my Adr would have been going 48Kph, so no running away,

You lost a 1/3 of you mech why should you be able to run away. Every IS light mech i own would have been dead. At least running at 53.5 with speed tweak is better than death.



If this is really about balancing the clan xl,std and is xl. You should be happy about using them in your clan mechs. At what point would you trade for a IS xl or std?

I would change all my std and xl out for a clan xl with a 50% speed decrease if it lost half the side.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 June 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

I once poked out to shoot with my Locust, saw a Gauss Jager, and whirled around to tank the damage to the arm. With a 30-50% speed reduction, I would still be dead.

20T LCT(Duel Gauss) vs 35T ADR(3LL) Comparison not fair

[Destoroyah]

The Clan XL engines is the single most prominent piece of equipment the clans use that give them such a large advantage. Cause it's like they are getting all the benefits of the IS XL with only 10% of the drawbacks.

A possible alternative would be to buff the IS engine tech a bit but I do agree the clan XL needs a slight agility nerf like 10% when they lose a side cause the engine is effectively damaged so shouldn't work at full potential.

For IS XLs add like 10% Structure to the side torso's.
IS Standards would add a lot more like 30-40% additional structure to compensate for it's drawbacks.
And when Light Fusion Engines are released they perform just like clan XL's but I think they are slightly heavier then IS XL's.
When Clan Standard Engines come out there needs to be something that makes them feel worth the trade for all that weight they are losing though I think Clan Standard engines are lighter the IS Standard Engines.

So this is the Basis of my suggestion.

Standard XL - High risk for great weight saving, but are slightly more durable then LFE and ClanXL.
Clan XL and Light Fusion Engines - Lower risk then Standard XL's but suffer penalties as the engine is damaged.
Standard Engines - Low speed and weight Saving, but compensates with great durability.

This way every engine has a purpose.