68 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

"Fire support"

Making your teammates tank for you, so you can stay fresh and get high scores while losing.

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 June 2015 - 04:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rushin Roulette, on 18 June 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Umm. there is no danger close for LRMs. The only danger close situation you get in MWO at all is for consumable Airstrikes and Artillery strikes. Everything else is pinpoint damage (Even if it is spread out with missiles, each missile still targets the mech and not the aproximate area where the mech is standing).

If you want to play LRMs effectively, you are not sitting in the back lobbing bottels at locks, you are actively in the fight repositioning yourself accordingly, depending on how the fight commences. If you are 500 meters behind your own team, you are more in danger of hitting your teammates who cross your LRM line of fire that you would be if you had direct line of sight to the enemy (As you would also see if any teammate were in danger of crossing the flightpath before he actually does this).

Your danger close argument is therefore invalid in the particular situation of MWO (not in real life though, as the immense ranges of modern artillery fire support means that it takes more than 10 seconds for the opponents to reach the artillery position )

Danger close is that range where LRMs bounce right off the enemy armor (>120 Meters)for my definition, not the normal one I know . So you want LONG range missiles to be used in its close range only???

Sjorpha, on 18 June 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

"Fire support"

Making your teammates tank for you, so you can stay fresh and get high scores while losing.

Fire Support second line of attack. the one behind the guys taking fire... so the enemy... can't... get to ...the cannon cocker.

Why yes You described fire support correctly.

[Lugh]

Sjorpha, on 18 June 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

"Fire support"

Making your teammates tank for you, so you can stay fresh and get high scores while losing.

Why aren't you doing this? It's always better to be the guy NOT taking fire and shooting the other guy...

[Joseph Mallan]

Lugh, on 18 June 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Why aren't you doing this? It's always better to be the guy NOT taking fire and shooting the other guy...

[UrsusMorologus]

Sjorpha, on 18 June 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

"Fire support"

Making your teammates tank for you, so you can stay fresh and get high scores while losing.

Uh yeah that's the difference between attack mech and support mech, the first is able to engage in symmetrical combat due to extra defensive capabilities that let them win trades (eg, large number of hit-points, ECM cloak, speed, JJ mobility, ...), while the support mechs have nothing and must use asymmetrical tactics in order to avoid dying right away.

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 18 June 2015 - 05:52 AM.

[InspectorG]

Rushin Roulette, on 18 June 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

If you want to play LRMs effectively, you are not sitting in the back lobbing bottels at locks, you are actively in the fight repositioning yourself accordingly, depending on how the fight commences. If you are 500 meters behind your own team, you are more in danger of hitting your teammates who cross your LRM line of fire that you would be if you had direct line of sight to the enemy (As you would also see if any teammate were in danger of crossing the flightpath before he actually does this).

Your danger close argument is therefore invalid in the particular situation of MWO (not in real life though, as the immense ranges of modern artillery fire support means that it takes more than 10 seconds for the opponents to reach the artillery position )

This is why the smaller more mobile LRM boats are moar viable in a Pug, the HBK, Treb, Quickdrawl...

They can move, even run-n-gun, with the team on a moving front line. Closer to the action = faster LRM delivery.

When i HBK-J, im just behind the brawl, either trying to sneak shots in or just pounding on the guy who is exposed.
Trying the same in my Warcock LRM/wub hybrid...with mixed results. Those low *ss arms...

[Madcap72]

Rushin Roulette, on 18 June 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Umm. there is no danger close for LRMs. The only danger close situation you get in MWO at all is for consumable Airstrikes and Artillery strikes. Everything else is pinpoint damage (Even if it is spread out with missiles, each missile still targets the mech and not the aproximate area where the mech is standing).

If you want to play LRMs effectively, you are not sitting in the back lobbing bottels at locks, you are actively in the fight repositioning yourself accordingly, depending on how the fight commences. If you are 500 meters behind your own team, you are more in danger of hitting your teammates who cross your LRM line of fire that you would be if you had direct line of sight to the enemy (As you would also see if any teammate were in danger of crossing the flightpath before he actually does this).

Your danger close argument is therefore invalid in the particular situation of MWO (not in real life though, as the immense ranges of modern artillery fire support means that it takes more than 10 seconds for the opponents to reach the artillery position )

There is a danger close for LRMS since they can team kill. There is a legit basis for watching when your firing when your own team mate is tangling. In fact, when I play lights or fast mediums and have missiles coming at me, I run around enemy mechs and use them as meat shields. So on that you are wrong, there is a distance at which incoming missiles are "danger close" when used as supporting fire.

Also, your "500m behind the team" argument is silly due to the flight physics of LRMS. The farter back you are, the higher the max ordinate, and the steeper the angle of attack towards the enemy that reduces thier available amount of cover, increases the likelihood of head and CT hits, and reduces chances of what you described in friendlies walking in the target line.


Do you even LURM bro?



#lurms4lyfe

[Ted Wayz]

So I agree with many points made in this post, although the Kintaro is my favorite missile boat. I usually stay LOS at around the edge of the battle. 1 v 1 I will extend to 400m, to lessen the effect of medium range weapons, and kite.

If I am in an assault missile boat like the Stalker or Awesome (the Zeus I usually apply the strategy above due to its mobility) I try and stay within 200m of the front line. The missile payloads are bigger but less frequent, so the range is better for keeping the target shaking. The range also allows for use of their secondary weapons.

In both of the above I can get my own locks. Never count on others to get you locks.

But I will reward people who give them. I will always fire a courtesy volley to give the spotting bonus (if it hits). If they maintain the lock I will start my barrage at 1100m (LRM range module) and keep it up until we are engaged close. If lucky I will usually exhaust 900-1620 missiles in a match.

That is what I consider fire support.

[Krivvan]

UrsusMorologus, on 17 June 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

There's no good reason for being up front with LRMs or Gauss or ERPPC.

Being unable to aim is something else

Less time for the enemy to casually step away from the shot. So yes, there is actually a very good reason to be up near the front with LRMs and Gauss and ERPPC.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 June 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

As a former Fire Support Mech Pilot, What makes it harder for good fire support to be provided is lack of target locks.

If you're relying on your team for target locks, you're a bad fire support mech pilot.

[Krivvan]

Lugh, on 18 June 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Why aren't you doing this? It's always better to be the guy NOT taking fire and shooting the other guy...

Because it means your team dies faster.

The way this game works is that you want to present as many mechs to the enemy at once as possible. Every single mech that is not getting shot at at all is hurting the team's overall pool of health. This means that your mechs will die faster and you will be outnumbered faster.

You want 12 mechs all heavily damaged. You do not want 6 dead mechs and 6 fresh mechs.

This does not mean that you have to be all up close all the time, but it means that you have to at least draw some fire, including long range fire, at least to make the enemy have to turn towards you. This applies even when you're in a Light mech.

This is also one of many reasons why LRMs are crap.

Edited by Krivvan, 18 June 2015 - 05:41 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

"What Is Fire Support?" is the name of a topic in the MW:O General Discussion forum that quickly devolved into yet another "LRM's Suck!" thread.

Yawn.

[Slepnir]

Lugh, on 18 June 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

Nope. It's not. Anytime you are more than 500m (that's one square) from your team you are not in range to support the team.

Why? The enemy will be ~500m from your team when the engagement begins. Which leaves YOU at 1300m to 1500m from the enemy.

This means that the precious time you spend 'repositioning' the enemy team's support is pouring fire on your guys while you are not.

You are mistaken, I was referring to being 800-11000m from the TARGET.
that obviously places me closer to my own team. in fact unless I am self TAGing for LRMs I rarely try to get closer than 6-700m.

if I.have direct fire energy weapons with 1300m+ range or LRMs with 1100m I am going to use that advantage to do damage to targets I can hit.

That's what mechs like the awsome and warhawk were specifically designed to do.

[Dinochrome]

Hailz All:

I always find intelligent support mech conversations interesting mainly because they do have a place in the game. The role changes as the mechs that are the latest and greatest present themselves and as the maps are added. Support mechs are not LRM boats, rather they are mechs with medium to long range direct fire weapons and one or two LRM 10-15's determined by your chosen mech chassis. Because we can't configure a mech for a given map we have to be more general in our weapons load outs. A current support mech has to be mobile, camp out somewhere and lob LRM's and you die. Moving with your lance, fighting with direct fire and when opportunity presents itself give someone the gift of an LRM 15 salvo. That is a current support mech.

V/R Dinochrome

[ScarecrowES]

I largely disagree with the OP regarding the proper use of fire support mechs. Ultimately, fire support should always be positioned away from the main friendly force and should never be near enough that enemies in a direct engagement with said force can exact significant damage on the fire support teams.

Fire Support mechs have 4 basic jobs:
1) Suppress enemy forces by providing direct or indirect fire on enemies and positions that causes the enemy to retreat to cover or flee outright.
2) Provide sustained damaged on enemy units, with particular emphasis on priority targets, fleeing/weak targets, or targets in coverage from friendly units.
3) Support friendly unit manuevering through suppression or distraction.
4) Provide for area denial through selective application of fire.

None of those jobs is best done anywhere near the team, and some of them can't be done near the team at all.

Unfortunately, many players who build fire support mechs build them wrong (focusing only on LRMs for instance. No, your 1200 LRMs are helping noone), or simply can't play them properly. And many think fire support is limited to merely LRMs, even though it includes myriad other ranged systems, and even short ranged harrasser builds. On the other hand, most non-support players have no concept of what fire support does or how to use it effectively ("GET YOUR OWN LOCKS1!!!1!") The rare guy who builds a mech purely as a FO to support ranged fire support often finds there are no support mechs on the team, because most support players have given up and gone meta.

So yeah... the OP found a bad support player, but that doesn't make support a bad role.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Madcap72, on 18 June 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

There is a danger close for LRMS since they can team kill. There is a legit basis for watching when your firing when your own team mate is tangling. In fact, when I play lights or fast mediums and have missiles coming at me, I run around enemy mechs and use them as meat shields. So on that you are wrong, there is a distance at which incoming missiles are "danger close" when used as supporting fire.

Also, your "500m behind the team" argument is silly due to the flight physics of LRMS. The farter back you are, the higher the max ordinate, and the steeper the angle of attack towards the enemy that reduces thier available amount of cover, increases the likelihood of head and CT hits, and reduces chances of what you described in friendlies walking in the target line.


Do you even LURM bro?



#lurms4lyfe

Exactly, I have a build that is very effective at 500 all day long, Dual Gauss, dual ERLL and dual Lrm 5s. Like stated above if your in a brawl I want my missles at the greatest apogee to minimize collateral damage. If humping them in close chances are I am hitting my brawlers too.

Besides when you push and die I can back out an range all day long. Gotten multiple kills doing just that.

If I bring a Brawler I will be with you. If not I play the machine I am driving at optimum ranges.

[Madcap72]

5x LRM Catapult...

This


IS


FIRESUPPORT!!!!!!

[Joseph Mallan]

Krivvan, on 18 June 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Less time for the enemy to casually step away from the shot. So yes, there is actually a very good reason to be up near the front with LRMs and Gauss and ERPPC.


If you're relying on your team for target locks, you're a bad fire support mech pilot.

When I had an average of 7 FpS I had no idea what kind of player I was. Until I killed a enemy Mech with a 4 bit screen and allies who gave great targeting instructions. So spare me your failed attempt at being a tough guy. Being able to get your own targets is fine, but fire support is used from out of LoS usually in combat. and since it is a combat game... Sit down.

[xengk]

Sjorpha, on 18 June 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

"Fire support"

Making your teammates tank for you, so you can stay fresh and get high scores while losing.

"Fire Support"
That guy who is hosing the direwolf you try to face tank, so that you don't die.

[Joseph Mallan]

xengk, on 23 June 2015 - 02:05 AM, said:

"Fire Support"
That guy who is hosing the direwolf you try to face tank, so that you don't die.

My best friend on the map!

[bad arcade kitty]

>"Fire Support"
>That guy who is hosing the direwolf you try to face tank, so that he has a chance to secure your kill.

fixed for teh great justice