669 replies to this topic

[Pando]

michaelius, on 13 January 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

Well it's not like we have much need for quad ac mech ever since cataphract was introduced either.

Please. This baby can sport...

2x AC/20's
Max armor
Endo
Max engine
7 tons of AC/20 ammo
Kick out 80.4 kph

Tell me this is just another cataphract.

Oh, and you can rock quad U/AC5's.

[VagabondHT]

Pando, on 13 January 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Please. This baby can sport...

2x AC/20's
Max armor
Endo
Max engine
7 tons of AC/20 ammo
Kick out 80.4 kph

Tell me this is just another cataphract.

Oh, and you can rock quad U/AC5's.

You also forgot to mention that the arms are in a better possition compaired to the phract.

[Mr 144]

Pando, on 13 January 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Please. This baby can sport...

2x AC/20's
Max armor
Endo
Max engine
7 tons of AC/20 ammo
Kick out 80.4 kph

Tell me this is just another cataphract.

Oh, and you can rock quad U/AC5's.

Meh...Let's just say "Cata" then...

AC/20...
Whack-a-pult:
+Extremely 'safe' AC/20 mounts
+'Best' Torso Twist/Speed
-Limited up/down movement
-no XL option
Jager-whacker:
+XL allows higher speed
+Vertical Targeting
-Vulnerable Mounting Locations

Dakka Dakka...
Jager ( 2xUAC/5 + 2xAC/2 )
+Speed
+Convergence
+Higher Mounts
-Heat
-Mismatched Projectile
Phract-4X ( 2xUAC/5 + 2xAC/5 or AC/2s )
+5 tons
+option for AC/5s
+Heat
-Speed
-Low mount points
Phract-Ilya ( 3xUAC/5 + 3xML )
+Extreme Burst DPS Potential (Luck of the Jam)
+5 tons
+single ammo type
-convergence

Uniqueness... (cannot be duplicated on another chassis)
JM6-A:
2xUAC/5
2xASRM6
2xML
~70kph (with tweak)

Aside from the JM6-A, I just don't see what the Jager brings to the table that any 'Cata' cannot do at least equally. Sure, there's finer points in playstyle that may be appealing, but nothing groundbreaking like the 'phract brought to the game. I think the main factor will be in convergence vs. arm vulnerability. Some things like 4xUAC/5 people like to dream about are simply not viable at 65 tons.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 13 January 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Vincent Lynch]

I'm wondering if a 4xAC/2, 2 LL JagerMech would work fine.

[Pando]

VagabondHT, on 13 January 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

You also forgot to mention that the arms are in a better possition compaired to the phract.

Didn't need to mention that detail. Phract's are like "T-Rex" arms IMO

Vincent Lynch, on 14 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

I'm wondering if a 4xAC/2, 2 LL JagerMech would work fine.

Want me to post a build?

[Pando]

Mr 144, on 13 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Meh...Let's just say "Cata" then...

AC/20...
Whack-a-pult:
+Extremely 'safe' AC/20 mounts
+'Best' Torso Twist/Speed
-Limited up/down movement
-no XL option
Jager-whacker:
+XL allows higher speed
+Vertical Targeting
-Vulnerable Mounting Locations

Dakka Dakka...
Jager ( 2xUAC/5 + 2xAC/2 )
+Speed
+Convergence
+Higher Mounts
-Heat
-Mismatched Projectile
Phract-4X ( 2xUAC/5 + 2xAC/5 or AC/2s )
+5 tons
+option for AC/5s
+Heat
-Speed
-Low mount points
Phract-Ilya ( 3xUAC/5 + 3xML )
+Extreme Burst DPS Potential (Luck of the Jam)
+5 tons
+single ammo type
-convergence

Uniqueness... (cannot be duplicated on another chassis)
JM6-A:
2xUAC/5
2xASRM6
2xML
~70kph (with tweak)

Aside from the JM6-A, I just don't see what the Jager brings to the table that any 'Cata' cannot do at least equally. Sure, there's finer points in playstyle that may be appealing, but nothing groundbreaking like the 'phract brought to the game. I think the main factor will be in convergence vs. arm vulnerability. Some things like 4xUAC/5 people like to dream about are simply not viable at 65 tons.

Mr 144

Well. I would take the Jager over the Phract because of my personal play-style preferences.

I'll go ahead and share some builds here. If you would like Mr 144 make your phract builds and post them so visual people can see the differences.

[Vincent Lynch]

Pando, on 14 January 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Want me to post a build?

Hehe, I can make the build myself, in my head, or on a sheet of paper anytime.
What I meant was, I wonder how it would "feel" like in battle, especially due to the fact that it will on one side run quite hot (I don't want to give it a much smaller engine than that it comes with, so it won't have too many DHS), on the other side pack a serious punch on all ranges, with "dakka factor". Especially since AC/2 and LL are both weapons I did not try yet.

On the build: 4 tons saved on transition from AC/5 to AC/2 will allow replacing one medium Laser with a large one. a 245 XL engine weighs (factoring in the 10th heat sink) 7.5 tons less than the 260 standard, so upgrading the second laser to large and adding a 4th ton of AC ammo will still leave me with 2.5 tons free. Also using Endosteel, I can have a total of 11 tons of armor, which isn't maxed but quite good. (1 ton more than a stock Catapult-C1.)
Since the AC/2s require just 1 slot each, it might be possible to also add Ferrofibrous.
(Whether I'd rather have a 225Xl engine and add AMS remains to be considered.)

Note that a 4 AC/5+2ML loadout weighs exactly as much as a 4AC/2+2LL loadout, but you run out of ammo way sooner.
That's also why I think we won't see that many of these 4xUltra AC/5 loadouts so many people are talking about, because they would either be very slow to take enough ammo, or have glass armor (or both).

[Mr 144]

Pando, on 14 January 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Well. I would take the Jager over the Phract because of my personal play-style preferences.

I'll go ahead and share some builds here. If you would like Mr 144 make your phract builds and post them so visual people can see the differences.

No need to post mechlab pics as far as I can tell. I already listed the pros and cons of the builds, the rest should be obvious.

The quad UAC/5 build is not viable. A single UAC/5 needs 2-3 tons of ammo to feed it properly. 4 tons of ammo for 4 guns is just rediculously low. A triple UAC/5 Ilya caries 10 tons of ammo + it's 3xMLs. The 4xJager build would be useless VERY quickly. Even with 100% accuracy, thats only 500 maximum damage output.

As I mentioned with the AC/20 build, a CataPult can do it too, while keeping the 20s much more proyected in it's side torsos. There's the increased vertical targeting on the Jager, but thats it.

Quad AC/2s ? Knock yourself out I guess, but that's my last choice for a build and nothing a 4x can't pull off. The Jager is probably a better choice for quad 2s, but I wouldn't run that build anyhow.

Mr 144

[William Warriors]

Pando, on 13 January 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Please. This baby can sport...

2x AC/20's
Max armor
Endo
Max engine
7 tons of AC/20 ammo
Kick out 80.4 kph

Tell me this is just another cataphract.

Oh, and you can rock quad U/AC5's.

No it can't. the arm does not have enough critical space to do it. Even if it can, slow speed and armor like a light mech = Suicide mech to pilot.

One shot of two gauss rifle slugs or Ac-20s shell is enough to kill it

Edited by William Conrad, 14 January 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Vincent Lynch]

William Conrad, on 14 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

No it can't. the arm does not have enough critical space to do it. Even if it can, slow speed and armor like a light mech = Suicide mech to pilot.

Actually it can. The JagerMech has no lower arm actuators, an Ultra AC/5 takes 5 slots, 2*5=10, everything fine.
But yes, a JagerMech doing that will either get one-shot, or a Stalker can run in circles around it.

[Pando]

Mr 144, on 14 January 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

No need to post mechlab pics as far as I can tell. I already listed the pros and cons of the builds, the rest should be obvious.

The quad UAC/5 build is not viable. A single UAC/5 needs 2-3 tons of ammo to feed it properly. 4 tons of ammo for 4 guns is just rediculously low. A triple UAC/5 Ilya caries 10 tons of ammo + it's 3xMLs. The 4xJager build would be useless VERY quickly. Even with 100% accuracy, thats only 500 maximum damage output.

As I mentioned with the AC/20 build, a CataPult can do it too, while keeping the 20s much more proyected in it's side torsos. There's the increased vertical targeting on the Jager, but thats it.

Quad AC/2s ? Knock yourself out I guess, but that's my last choice for a build and nothing a 4x can't pull off. The Jager is probably a better choice for quad 2s, but I wouldn't run that build anyhow.

Mr 144

To me there is no advantage putting an ac/20 in the side torso apposed to the arm. The insignificant plausible armor difference between 10-20 points is hardly an advantage if you're capable of moving 50% faster. Mounting the weapons higher allowing you to fire over cover hardly exposed is a huge advantage over the catapult having to expose a good top half of the mech' to fire. Also, as you mentioned the ability to fire on a vertical axis is huge too.

It will probably be the better sniper because of the weapon locations.

[Xenok]

What no talk of a jagger with dual guass cannons on higher points that can more accurately aim on a vertical axis? This thing will make a very good gauss sniper.

[Pando]

Xenok, on 15 January 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

What no talk of a jagger with dual guass cannons on higher points that can more accurately aim on a vertical axis? This thing will make a very good gauss sniper.

Well I agree. But according to some its a disadvantage.

[Adridos]

Pando, on 15 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Well I agree. But according to some its a disadvantage.

Your arms can be easily shot off like the Catapult's ears. A major disadvantage to the Catapult, gauss rifles of which are really safe.

[Vincent Lynch]

Xenok, on 15 January 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

What no talk of a jagger with dual guass cannons on higher points that can more accurately aim on a vertical axis? This thing will make a very good gauss sniper.

The reason we were not talking about that is simple: A dualGauss JagerMech has no advantage over a dualGauss Catapult, because both can mount XL engines.
A dual AC/20 JagerMech has a HUGE advantage over a dual AC/20 Catapult, because that catapult can not mount an XL engine and will therefore be either very slow or glass-armored.

Edited by Vincent Lynch, 16 January 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

I'm still not sure why the Devs went with putting this one in the game. It has the same tonnage as the Catapult, but the weight of ballistics weapons means it has to devote much more towards basic weapons than other 65-ton mechs, making it difficult to use those multiple-ballistic hardpoints. The mech practically -requires- an XL engine to be viable, and there are only three variants of the mech that we know of, making any kind of mastery of the mech more difficult than others (at least with the Catapult, you have 4 variants to work with). In addition, using the mech in its base form is suicide, so the base price has to be paid knowing you will be spending still millions more C-Bills to get it into shape to actually be used...a little like buying a broken car at new car prices in a showroom.

In the TT game, this wasn't the case because the mech had a specialized role to play that didn't force it to engage other 'mechs. However, there are no aircraft in MWO and every battle is with mechs, so choosing this mech to introduce instead of a Grasshopper, or one of the SLDF 3025 retrofits is odd. It just seems like a mech without a mission in MWO, especially when it seems to be filling the place of far more useful mechs like the Warhammer (yes, I know they can't use the classic design, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have made something like it for the Heavy class).

About the only thing I can see making this mech worthwhile would be if they had plans for it to feature something to represent its advanced radar systems, like maybe having it be immune to ECM effects.

[Adridos]

^^Well, this mech can do 4xUAC/5. Catapult and Ilya can't compare.

And I'm fairly certain we'll even see something like 6xAC/2.

[Triordinant]

MARCH 19!

[Mr 144]

Adridos, on 21 January 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

^^Well, this mech can do 4xUAC/5. Catapult and Ilya can't compare.

And I'm fairly certain we'll even see something like 6xAC/2.

I really wish people would stop saying this. The Jagermech cannot do 4xUACs. They'll fit for sure, but there isn't enough tonnage for ammo to be viable. Anyone who's run an Ilya or CTF-4X knows this, and those have 5 extra tons.

Mr 144

[Wolf Ender]

Vincent Lynch, on 16 January 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

The reason we were not talking about that is simple: A dualGauss JagerMech has no advantage over a dualGauss Catapult, because both can mount XL engines.

Don't forget that with a Catapult running XL engine and Gauss makes you substantially easier to kill. If your side torso gets beat down enough there is a HIGH risk of Gauss explosion and since you're running that XL, you are instantly dead

Jagermech with arm mounted gauss can run an XL and still survive a gauss explosion

Edited by Wolf Ender, 24 January 2013 - 11:00 PM.