279 replies to this topic

[AEgg]

Rhazien, on 21 June 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

There is no grey area in the case outlined by the OP. He stated:

I'm not talking about the OP. Obviously if he said something or had powered up recently or was doing, well, anything, that's a separate case from someone who is either disconnected or powered down facing a wall for more than 2-3 minutes.

Mudhutwarrior, on 21 June 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

In the rules it's a bannable offense for giving a teammates position. Then it states intentionally powering down or going out of bound without participation for repeated abuses. Obviously one is worse than the other by PGI's own language.

People can be new and trying things. One of the instructions to pop up in the wait screen is about powering down. You read it and you try it. You try it a lot if your new.

I never have seen any instructions telling you to give away a teammates position when they are powered down or hiding.

Honestly one has to be a complete moron not to see the difference here.

Guess that's the difference, you only care about what PGIs rules are, I care about what's right. At least on my side there's a debate to be had, but if you only care about "the letter of the law", for lack of a better term, there's nothing to discuss.

[Mudhutwarrior]

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

I'm not talking about the OP. Obviously if he said something or had powered up recently or was doing, well, anything, that's a separate case from someone who is either disconnected or powered down facing a wall for more than 2-3 minutes.



Guess that's the difference, you only care about what PGIs rules are, I care about what's right. At least on my side there's a debate to be had, but if you only care about "the letter of the law", for lack of a better term, there's nothing to discuss.

Treason is always the greater crime in comparison. That is pretty easy to figure out. I'm not talking Snowden treason. He has a moral argument in a free society. I am talking treason so as not to be bored or other selfish reasons like in real life people selling out for cash and gifts.

Don't understand how hard that is to figure out except I see people trying to justify torture too. Maybe its polluting high crimes with justifications trickling down?

As far as letter of the law goes I may be strict in that sense because I live under color of law in real life, understand and appreciate the problem with that.

I do care about whats right. Just not your idea of whats right. Law is the foundation of civilized society. The corruption of law into color of law signals its downfall and breakdown of civil discourse. Your asking for more color of law. I am fully against that for the reasons above.

[Wildstreak]

@OP
Welcome to Mechwarrior Online, the game where a number of the playervbase consider themselves so important, they care more about getting to the next match than letting someone use ambush tactics.
You are not alone.

I once wound up a lone Locust against 2+ enemies, I chose a spot to hide waiting for an ambush. Despite telling people in chat what I was doing, a couple gave me up and I got killed easy thanks to that sell out.

I also watched a lone Raven-3L with ECM, last guy on our team, make a stand against a few enemies. The oppsing team complained in chat about the Raven griefing, meanwhile I heard a dead teammate giving the Raven advice. I chatted back the Raven was not greifing, the opposing team got nasty in chat claiming he was, they would report it and I should shut up and turn off General Chat so they could do as they wished. While this happened, they lost another guy to a sniping attack. Despite that loss, they did not learn and kept chatting back about reporting the Raven. They eventually got lucky and killed him, still I had to report the incident due to threat of reporting because the Raven was fighting back sniper/ambush style with advice and proved it by nailing someone.

But this is MWO where some of the players claim ambush tactics are attempts, "to preserve your KDR," even in the face of proof such claims are bogus. Then these same accusers will go on to claim they know everything about military combat and this game acurrately reflects it, one claim being ambush fighting never happens in real life.

Then they complain they cannot use their Mech.

Expect more of this, not a lot but it will keep happening. This is not a game that rewards using some actual combat techniques even if you communicate with your team.

Nazar24, on 19 June 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

People are more inclined to not reveal your position if you share your plan in the chat, something like "don't sell me, i am not hiding".
If you don't people gonna assume that you are just preserving your k/d by letting the time run out, or that you are afk.

edit: also, no offence but typing "i' m going to hide with honor" in chat is just asking for it.

Actually they will give you away. The desire to jump into the next match seems to take precedence over team concepts.

Hukkama, on 19 June 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

so buy multiple mechs of the same variant with the same load outs and modules and everything is what you are suggesting

Clan, you can get more than oen variant, configure each with the same pods and weapons thus having multiple copies of the same build most of the time with few exceptions.
IS you run different variants with different loadouts.

[Alardus]

Funny that PGI allows dead people to see co-ordinates with F9 in order to team treason.

[LordNothing]

sometimes you do see the last mech go to town on the remaining baddies and through great skill and shear force of will manage to win. when that happens you never see them hide and shut down for minutes at a time. those who actually have the skill to mop up 3 or more mechs usually get down to buisness without waiting for them to scatter.

i see it as derelection of duty when you shut down and hide. there was a time when you did that in the military and they shot you on sight. and you cant play the team card either because hiding so you can fight them by yourself is not team play.

[Mystere]

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

You totally missed the point of my post.

No I did not.

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Both people are breaking the rules, that's a given. (There's a big difference between shutting down and hiding and actually trying to win. I'm assuming the player is either AFK or has been shutdown and not moving for more than a few minutes so it's obvious they aren't coming back).

Given that, one person does it for either personal gain (preserving KDR) or as deliberate griefing. The other person is doing it to help the 23 other players finish the match faster. One of these is clearly worse than the other.

Wrong. Only one is definitely breaking the rules, and it is not the person shutting down/hiding.

What surprises me though is that you seem to have been in this game for almost 3 years now and yet you still do not know what PGI meant by "non-participation".

[AEgg]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

sometimes you do see the last mech go to town on the remaining baddies and through great skill and shear force of will manage to win. when that happens you never see them hide and shut down for minutes at a time. those who actually have the skill to mop up 3 or more mechs usually get down to buisness without waiting for them to scatter.

i see it as derelection of duty when you shut down and hide. there was a time when you did that in the military and they shot you on sight. and you cant play the team card either because hiding so you can fight them by yourself is not team play.

Maybe if PGI renamed "Non Participation" "Desertion" in their rules write up people would see your point.

As far as I can tell they're just hung-up on the "team treason" phrase. Probably wouldn't even see some of these arguments if PGI had called it "snitching" instead.

Funny how words twist peoples perceptions on the same issue so much.

Edit- I got ninja'd

Mystere, on 21 June 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

No I did not.




Wrong. Only one is definitely breaking the rules, and it is not the person shutting down/hiding.

What surprises me though is that you seem to have been in this game for almost 3 years now and yet you still do not know what PGI meant by "non-participation".

Let me clarify this: I'm NOT concerned with the posted rules. This entire argument is over what's right, not what the existing rules are.

Simpler version:

1. Is it right to hide in a corner or disconnect with no intent of returning or trying to win the match, when you are the last man on your team. (and it's not conquest)
2. Given that the last player will not be attempting to play, and you can be fairly certain of this (i.e. they've been AFK for more than three minutes and don't respond to text, or are a DC), is it right to give away their position to save everyone in the game some time?
3. Which crime is worse, reporting the player who is hurting their team by not playing, or the player giving away the position, hurting no one (except arguably the deserters KDR, which doesn't mean anything anyway for obvious reasons)

Edited by AEgg, 21 June 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[Mystere]

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

Guess that's the difference, you only care about what PGIs rules are, I care about what's right. At least on my side there's a debate to be had, but if you only care about "the letter of the law", for lack of a better term, there's nothing to discuss.

You are actually missing both the so-called "spirit and the letter of the law".

Mudhutwarrior, on 21 June 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Don't understand how hard that is to figure out except I see people trying to justify torture too. Maybe its polluting high crimes with justifications trickling down?

When a country totally justifies and accepts torture, yes it does pollute everything else.

[Mystere]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

sometimes you do see the last mech go to town on the remaining baddies and through great skill and shear force of will manage to win. when that happens you never see them hide and shut down for minutes at a time. those who actually have the skill to mop up 3 or more mechs usually get down to buisness without waiting for them to scatter.

i see it as derelection of duty when you shut down and hide. there was a time when you did that in the military and they shot you on sight. and you cant play the team card either because hiding so you can fight them by yourself is not team play.

I'm sorry but one of my best matches ever involved me in a 1x3 with still 8 minutes left. The first 6 minutes of those were spent hiding, powering down, watching and stalking the enemy, and planning my moves. The next 110 seconds were spent killing them. That meant I had 10 seconds more to spare. The people all calling to just offer myself up to die probably had their jaws drop below ground level at the end.

That fight net me 6 kills, the first 3 were all ECM carriers: a DDC, a 3L, and a 5D.

[AEgg]

Mystere, on 21 June 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

I'm sorry but one of my best matches ever involved me in a 1x3 with still 8 minutes left. The first 6 minutes of those were spent hiding, powering down, watching and stalking the enemy, and planning my moves. The next 110 seconds were spent killing them. That meant I had 10 seconds more to spare. The people all calling to just offer myself up to die probably had their jaws drop below ground level at the end.

That fight net me 6 kills, the first 3 were all ECM carriers: a DDC, a 3L, and a 5D.

Big difference between watching/stalking the enemy and hiding. At least in my experience, most of the people that shut down just to hide do so while staring at a wall and don't move or power up, ever.

Though to be honest even that is quite rare anymore. Maybe once every hundred or so games. More often the last player either tries or runs out of bounds.

[GeistHrafn]

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Let me clarify this: I'm NOT concerned with the posted rules. This entire argument is over what's right, not what the existing rules are.

Your (or anyone else heres) idea of what's "right" is irrelevant.
It is not up to any player to decide whats right or wrong, to decide if a player is hiding without the intention of returning to the fight, or whether he's setting up an ambush. It's just not up to any player to make that call.
The rules are clearly posted. Enforcement of those rules is handled by PGI. It is up to us to report folks that break the rules. That's it. I can't believe that people are somehow unclear as to what the rules are!

[Zoid]

I see this all the time on the forums but suspiciously never in-game. Every time someone is hiding shutdown, it's either for a purpose and the team supports/encourages them (conquest win for example) or it's someone being a jerk and trying to preserve their KDR. Never have I seen someone actually fighting who gets reported, but somehow this same thing shows up on the forums over and over.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Basically its no different that putting Traitors on a list to be legged, backshot and artied. Because we decide its the "right" thing to do. We know better than PGI and can take rule enforcement into our own hands. Right?

[AEgg]

Rhazien, on 21 June 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Your (or anyone else heres) idea of what's "right" is irrelevant.
It is not up to any player to decide whats right or wrong, to decide if a player is hiding without the intention of returning to the fight, or whether he's setting up an ambush. It's just not up to any player to make that call.
The rules are clearly posted. Enforcement of those rules is handled by PGI. It is up to us to report folks that break the rules. That's it. I can't believe that people are somehow unclear as to what the rules are!

Ummmm, this is a forum. The entire point of a forum is for discussion.

There's not really anything to discuss about the rules other than whether they are right or not.

Zoid, on 21 June 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

I see this all the time on the forums but suspiciously never in-game. Every time someone is hiding shutdown, it's either for a purpose and the team supports/encourages them (conquest win for example) or it's someone being a jerk and trying to preserve their KDR. Never have I seen someone actually fighting who gets reported, but somehow this same thing shows up on the forums over and over.

The argument is over whether it's OK to report someone who is clearly hiding for KDR or disconnected. Nobody ever said you should report someone who is still trying to play, and I've never seen that happen.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Never have I seen someone actually fighting who gets reported"

I have in the last week. His position was betrayed because his team mate decided he wasn't being aggressive enough.

Stupidest part was we were 30 points from racking up 750 in Conquest.

[Mystere]

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Big difference between watching/stalking the enemy and hiding. At least in my experience, most of the people that shut down just to hide do so while staring at a wall and don't move or power up, ever.

But I do at times stare at the wall precisely to dissuade the "impatient" from doing something "stupid".

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Though to be honest even that is quite rare anymore. Maybe once every hundred or so games. More often the last player either tries or runs out of bounds.

If it's rare, then why join the never ending big stink about it?

Also, many are probably intentionally running out of bounds precisely because of these highly self-important twits who would rather harass the last player than just quit the match.

[Mystere]

Rhazien, on 21 June 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

I can't believe that people are somehow unclear as to what the rules are!

Well, torture is internationally recognized as illegal. But, that fact was so inconvenient to some self-important twits they decided it should be made "legal", many loudly expressed support, and the rest gave their consent via their very notable silence.

Edited by Mystere, 21 June 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[AEgg]

Mystere, on 21 June 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

But I do at times stare at the wall precisely to dissuade the "impatient" from doing something "stupid".




If it's rare, then why join the never ending big stink about it?

Also, many are probably intentionally running out of bounds precisely because of these highly self-important twits who would rather harass the last player than just quit the match.

To your first question, because I see it as a question with such an obvious answer I can't really follow why it's such a big issue. If the last player is disconnected or hiding and it's clear they aren't coming back, what's the problem with giving away their position? They made the choice to lose the match (or their PC crashed), why not save everyone, including them, some time?

To your second, I don't think I've ever seen harassment of the last living player. I seriously doubt that's why people run out of bounds. More likely they just don't want to give the other team a kill (though I'm pretty sure you still get assists for suicides anyway, so running out of bounds doesn't really accomplish even that).

Maybe we're talking about different things?

Lets say you can be sure the player has no intention of returning to the game. I'll even use the most obvious case, someone who disconnected. Do you see anything wrong with reporting their position? (And I mean in the more figurative sense of "wrong", not whether it's against PGI's rules or not).

Next case is someone who you can't be sure about, you just died and spectate took you to the last mech, shutdown in a corner. Is reporting their position wrong?

I'd say No to the first question and Yes to the second. In the second case, you don't have enough information yet. If you try chat and get no response and three to five minutes tick down (or there's only a minute or two left in the match and it's not conquest), I'd change that to a "probably not".

[Mystere]

AEgg, on 21 June 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

To your first question, because I see it as a question with such an obvious answer I can't really follow why it's such a big issue. If the last player is disconnected or hiding and it's clear they aren't coming back, what's the problem with giving away their position? They made the choice to lose the match (or their PC crashed), why not save everyone, including them, some time?

To your second, I don't think I've ever seen harassment of the last living player. I seriously doubt that's why people run out of bounds. More likely they just don't want to give the other team a kill (though I'm pretty sure you still get assists for suicides anyway, so running out of bounds doesn't really accomplish even that).

Maybe we're talking about different things?

Lets say you can be sure the player has no intention of returning to the game. I'll even use the most obvious case, someone who disconnected. Do you see anything wrong with reporting their position? (And I mean in the more figurative sense of "wrong", not whether it's against PGI's rules or not).

Next case is someone who you can't be sure about, you just died and spectate took you to the last mech, shutdown in a corner. Is reporting their position wrong?

I'd say No to the first question and Yes to the second. In the second case, you don't have enough information yet. If you try chat and get no response and three to five minutes tick down (or there's only a minute or two left in the match and it's not conquest), I'd change that to a "probably not".

I've been known to do nothing for minutes at a time, other than staying in a hidden position while watching, and relocating to hide again if necessary. Do you know what my usual response is to those who impatiently ask what I am doing? It's "STFU or get the hell out of what's left of MY GAME!".

Edited by Mystere, 21 June 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Here is the bitter truth. Your time is not more valuable than the other 23 people. If disagree, then cry to PGI, and when they don't support your position (no pun intended), come cry to the forums.
I see we have already come full circle.