1- No one runs the SDR-5K in CW, and even then, you need AT LEAST an XL 255 (remove the extra DHS, and keep only 2 JJs, get FF to fit a 3rd JJ in there) SDR-5K
I knew i was doing this one wrong, but by that point it was so late i couldn't even figure out where i was loosing the math at
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2- NO ONE slaps a STD 300 on the Dragon. Not when you can add an XL 360 and still SAVE 1.5 tons (or 350 for 2.5 free tons) for more ammo. Not to mention that you need DHS with the 2xAC5s. DRG-1N (13 Million)
I avoid XL engines whenever possible, as they shorten the mechs lifespan. There's nothing worse than being hit by an LB-X or MG and seeing "engine destroyed" with the paper doll still showing armor in most locations, and one open side torso that's still yellow. Plus if i leave out the XL i can use the entire left side as a bullet sponge for those occasions when someone strips all the armor off of my right arm and i have to protect the guns.
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3- The TDR 9S build is kinda respectable, but the more common ones are this one: TDR-9S, and this one: TDR-9S both at 9 million.
The only difference i see between the build i posted, and the second one here (at least as far as i can tell) is that i forgot to front load the armor, which was laziness on my part, i'll admit; and that you dropped 1 ton of armor to take the engine up one size. I don't see the point of doing that personally, i mean adding an extra 1.7 mil to the price tag, just to pick up 3 kph?
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4-STK-4N STD 300 is almost mandatory, you need the improved torso twist in there. Also, why on earth is there a command console in there?
The CC adds a zoom bonus that stacks with X4 zoom mod, and gives a crit bonus. You can just as easily up ton the engine with the weight, but i was going for lowest cost, and engine replacements are the most expensive thing you can do to a mech. What does grab my attention is that you mentioning that changing engine affects torso twist range. This is something i didn't know, and i've been playing sense the bases in Assault where just red hash marks on the ground. It defiantly argues in favor of more advanced tutorials in this game.
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So the lights and mediums are more expensive on the IS side, heavies can go either way, and so do assaults (unless you want to compare the STK to the DWF, which is flawed, the KGC, is the counterpart of the DWF. STK matches up against the WHK, and they're very close in price (a 1-2 Million difference).
Ok, seeing the amount on engine swapping that goes on i now know why the cost swings the way it dose.
I wholeheartedly support implementing restrictions of some form as a barrier to entry for CW. I won't rehash what has already been said, but CW is endgame content and should be treated as such. People in awful trials and brand spanking new players have no place in an environment where good equipment, team coordination as well as individual skill is so critical to success.
Taking aside the concept of restrictions, I also feel like the presence of the matchmaker and Elo have no place in CW in any form. One of the draws in CW is that it's a dynamic, player driven mode. We choose (within a discrete domain) which planets to attack and defend, which units go toe to toe, and where our allegiances lie. Elo would potentially limit who and how you fight. Adding some form of Elo influence to CW is a band-aid meant to treat a problem that can be solved by ensuring that players participating in CW have a certain proficiency in the game. Incidentally, that proficiency level is served by adding a barrier to entry.
I've ready plenty of posts like these, and got intimidated into not even trying the CW due to being a solo player. i'd like to play, but i don't have any one to play with me or show me the ropes. Until I do, it sounds to me that CW is basically an arena for only pre-made groups to participate in. Would a solution be to sort the groups so that only pre-mades play pre-mades, and pugs play just pugs? As I've never played...maybe the population is too low to sort like that.
On a completely different subject: one I'm just curious about; If both sides were even in pilot skills and organized etc...would IS now have an even shot of winning a CW versus the clans? Or is the clan tech still to much of an edge at this point? In solo play all I still mainly see Ebon jags and Dires, and T-wolves stalking the grounds.
I've ready plenty of posts like these, and got intimidated into not even trying the CW due to being a solo player. i'd like to play, but i don't have any one to play with me or show me the ropes. Until I do, it sounds to me that CW is basically an arena for only pre-made groups to participate in. Would a solution be to sort the groups so that only pre-mades play pre-mades, and pugs play just pugs? As I've never played...maybe the population is too low to sort like that.
Try join an unit.. Or just hang in one of the many public TS servers available, there should be plenty of people willing to help you
The population is indeed to low to have any sort of queque segregation.
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On a completely different subject: one I'm just curious about; If both sides were even in pilot skills and organized etc...would IS now have an even shot of winning a CW versus the clans? Or is the clan tech still to much of an edge at this point? In solo play all I still mainly see Ebon jags and Dires, and T-wolves stalking the grounds.
Absolutely. The IS meta mechs (You know, certain Stalker and Dragon variants for example..) more than match the best Clan 'Mechs. I will tell you something more: at long/medium range, they even have an advantage over Clan 'Mechs. For some weird reason.. (quirks).
I've ready plenty of posts like these, and got intimidated into not even trying the CW due to being a solo player. i'd like to play, but i don't have any one to play with me or show me the ropes. Until I do, it sounds to me that CW is basically an arena for only pre-made groups to participate in. Would a solution be to sort the groups so that only pre-mades play pre-mades, and pugs play just pugs? As I've never played...maybe the population is too low to sort like that.
On a completely different subject: one I'm just curious about; If both sides were even in pilot skills and organized etc...would IS now have an even shot of winning a CW versus the clans? Or is the clan tech still to much of an edge at this point? In solo play all I still mainly see Ebon jags and Dires, and T-wolves stalking the grounds.
CW solo is murder, your own.
As a solo in the group game, you are relegated to fill out the rare 11man. Not fun for the solo and not fun for the 11man.
WHat you should do, is read through the Faction threads. Find a Unit that plays like you do and join them. Not only the added benefit of knowledge from the Unit to show you the ropes, people to drop in the pub and cw queue, and a team to belong to and play with. Not to mention friendships. It IS worth it for so many reasons to join a unit and play with others in a game that revolves around a group dynamic.
I knew i was doing this one wrong, but by that point it was so late i couldn't even figure out where i was loosing the math at
No problem XP. I was a bit confused myself, looking at the build thinking "it looks alright. Why is it different from mine?"
Tywren, on 21 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:
I avoid XL engines whenever possible, as they shorten the mechs lifespan. There's nothing worse than being hit by an LB-X or MG and seeing "engine destroyed" with the paper doll still showing armor in most locations, and one open side torso that's still yellow. Plus if i leave out the XL i can use the entire left side as a bullet sponge for those occasions when someone strips all the armor off of my right arm and i have to protect the guns.
On most mechs I would agree there, but the DRG has such tiny side torsos that it's a crime to not use the XL 360. The increased speed, and faster torso turn rate give it a lot more survivability in this case (Weird I know, but think of the dragon like an over-sized commando)
Tywren, on 21 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:
The only difference i see between the build i posted, and the second one here (at least as far as i can tell) is that i forgot to front load the armor, which was laziness on my part, i'll admit; and that you dropped 1 ton of armor to take the engine up one size. I don't see the point of doing that personally, i mean adding an extra 1.7 mil to the price tag, just to pick up 3 kph?
The distribution of the armor doesn't really matter for the sake of this discussion, the upgraded engine matters though. 3 Kph isn't really why we squeeze as big of an engine as possible on the 9S. It's the increased agility of the mech. Bigger engine size allows for faster torso twisting, which is gold for corner shooter like the 9S
Tywren, on 21 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:
The CC adds a zoom bonus that stacks with X4 zoom mod, and gives a crit bonus. You can just as easily up ton the engine with the weight, but i was going for lowest cost, and engine replacements are the most expensive thing you can do to a mech. What does grab my attention is that you mentioning that changing engine affects torso twist range. This is something i didn't know, and i've been playing sense the bases in Assault where just red hash marks on the ground. It defiantly argues in favor of more advanced tutorials in this game.
Sorry, I meant torso twist rate (the speed). That was a phrasing fail on my end.
Tywren, on 21 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:
Ok, seeing the amount on engine swapping that goes on i now know why the cost swings the way it dose.
It's much closer than people suspect. Although the entry fee is where the biggest impact will be. As you mentioned earlier, IS mechs /seem/ cheaper (for quite a few), while clan mechs /seem/ more expensive (for quite a few).
SolarCleric, on 21 June 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:
I've ready plenty of posts like these, and got intimidated into not even trying the CW due to being a solo player. i'd like to play, but i don't have any one to play with me or show me the ropes. Until I do, it sounds to me that CW is basically an arena for only pre-made groups to participate in. Would a solution be to sort the groups so that only pre-mades play pre-mades, and pugs play just pugs? As I've never played...maybe the population is too low to sort like that.
You're actually the kind of solo pilot I'd want on my team in CW. That post of yours says it all. It shows that you're thinking on a larger scale than just "I can haz damage?". The suggestion for solo-only queue isn't really going to solve anything, because it not only clashes with how CW is supposed to function, but it doesn't offer a shelter for solo rambos (no. 1 problem in CW. Not solo PLAYERs, solo RAMBOS).
I dropped solo in CW, I can confidently say that maybe 80% of my CW drops have been solo. However, I didn't play as a solo.
Best thing you can do in CW to improve your chances of winning is to just hop onto a teamspeak server for your faction. Check the House Kurita forums, and jump in there. Run into a bunch of other people, and work things out. Even that tiny amount of coordination can really swing things in your favor. You don't even need to join a unit, if you don't want to. Just log in, find some folks, drop with them, and coordinate.
Solo player vs. solo rambo explanation
Spoiler
A solo player is someone that is not dropping as part of a group. However, I use the term to refer to pilots that are dropping alone, but willing to work with the rest of the team to score a win.
Solo rambo on the other hand, is a huge problem. Generally speaking, they will not work with the team, they will always go off by themselves, and they are a hindrance, more than a benefit. If you can't reign them in, then let them die on their own, and accept that you are a pilot short.
These are the guys who will charge 1v5, get rolled, and then blame the team. It doesn't matter if it's CW, or the public queue, they're always a problem. Those are the solo pilots that no one wants on their team, no matter the mode.
SolarCleric, on 21 June 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:
On a completely different subject: one I'm just curious about; If both sides were even in pilot skills and organized etc...would IS now have an even shot of winning a CW versus the clans? Or is the clan tech still to much of an edge at this point? In solo play all I still mainly see Ebon jags and Dires, and T-wolves stalking the grounds.
Oh no. Things are more even now. Some IS mechs still have stupid crazy quirks on them that allow them to be a real threat for clan tech at range. I hope they get toned down a bit (STK-4N). Over all, here's the GENERAL way the techs are working:
1- Short range:
Spoiler
Lasers: IS (because they are colder, they fire more often, offsetting their weaker damage)
Ballistics: (Generally IS, unless the clan mech is using UACs. With the new burst speed fix, they are practically PP FLD)
Missiles: (Clan edge)
2-Medium Range:
Spoiler
Lasers: Bit of a 50/50. (IS lasers suffer in damage, but compensate by sammability. If using hit and run, IS wins. Staredown clan wins)
Ballistics: IS edge. (UACs start to spread their damage more at this range, so less accurate, but still a lot of firepower heading downrange)
Missiles: Only LRMs work at this range, and the edge goes to clan here, by a couple of inches.
3-Long Range:
Spoiler
Lasers: Goes to clans for the most part
Ballistics: Goes to IS. (PP FLD is consistent for IS, and so they take it, IF they can place the shot. Clan wins at gauss vs. gauss, that's it.)
Missiles: IS. (Sledgehammer LRMs, though heavier, and bigger, are more effective against AMS here.)
Try join an unit.. Or just hang in one of the many public TS servers available, there should be plenty of people willing to help you
Nope. Kurita TS is basically deserted, for one. And I dare assume that for most of the other IS teamspeak servers, the situation is similar.
As far as I see it, IS units or even organized non-unit players simply don't play anymore. Probably not as interested in playing what Russ has quite openly designated as the "supposed to lose" side. Leaves IS pugs to be slaughtered by Clan 12-mans, which is sure to work wonders for long-term motivation and viability, as pointed out in this thread. (IS vs IS warfare is dead as a doornail, so all that is left for IS players interested in CW is the Clan front.)
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Absolutely. The IS meta mechs (You know, certain Stalker and Dragon variants for example..) more than match the best Clan 'Mechs. I will tell you something more: at long/medium range, they even have an advantage over Clan 'Mechs. For some weird reason.. (quirks).
Not saying this is the be-all, end-all of comparisons, but this - as the most widely used tier list - is dominated by Clan machines. If you say that the most heavily overquirked, meta-built IS machines can just about keep up with common Clan mechs which are frequently much lighter (which is highly important in CW) you are closer to the truth.
I think what really would help a lot would be if the "looking for group" function would be remodeled, for now it's very basic.
1. Name you're group, or add a small describtion "Attack on "planet" or "Come in here for Missile+Narc/lightwolfpack"
2. every group should have a voIP room as soon as the group is formed, it's 2015 a "chat" (super basic chat function in this chase) doesn't do it anymore. Groups should be able to discuss setups and loadouts before the match starts without having the need for a teamspeak. that should be a given in my opinion.
We do lack guidiance for newer players in MWO badly, on that we probably all agree.
But i disagree with everything which make the usability for new players more diffcult aka any form of restriktion which keeps people away from CW.
A new player derps his cadetbonus (like we all did on our fist try).
He buys a mech which he finds fancy and doesn't care much about the variant or quirks (like we all did, if quirks had been arround that time).
He slaps on a loadout which he thinks is fun to play (like we all did).
New this new player will almost 100% certainly will get butchered in CW. But not if he's in a good group, even with less experience, yolo loadout like a 140 std raven or XL awesome.
If that player could join a group with Voip from the beginning it would make everything so much easier.
"hello sir, what mechs you got? oh really, well we go with it then."
"do you have a radar derpivation module for that mech? no? okay, we have tim, matt and joe with ecm, they are in your lance, stay close to them and you'll be fine"
So instead of thinking about resriktions and limitations, we should think about the exact opposite and how we could help them instead.
Having to play a certain amount of drop on the publicquery for pugs does not help, that doesn't teach anything about teamworks, it doesn't explains anything about tactics for CW, it doesn't explain the maps nor dropships,
They may learn how to pilot their mechs, yes. but they will die in a focusfire in less then 6 seconds regardless of how good they can pilot.
Nope. Kurita TS is basically deserted, for one. And I dare assume that for most of the other IS teamspeak servers, the situation is similar.
Have you tried the NS server?
Koshirou, on 22 June 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:
As far as I see it, IS units or even organized non-unit players simply don't play anymore. Probably not as interested in playing what Russ has quite openly designated as the "supposed to lose" side. Leaves IS pugs to be slaughtered by Clan 12-mans, which is sure to work wonders for long-term motivation and viability, as pointed out in this thread. (IS vs IS warfare is dead as a doornail, so all that is left for IS players interested in CW is the Clan front.)
That's the thing though, have you looked at the CW map lately? Clans are not winning easily, and in fact lose plenty of matches (it's just that the most active factions right now are mostly clans. Most units have stopped doing big drops for many reasons (burn out, summer ... etc.) however, one of the big ones is the fact that unit pilots don't like slaughtering pugs. It's about as challenging as fighting turrets, sometimes. (there are times where the matches are excellent though). Not to mention that plenty of us want more context in CW. Make those planets worth something.
Not saying this is the be-all, end-all of comparisons, but this - as the most widely used tier list - is dominated by Clan machines. If you say that the most heavily overquirked, meta-built IS machines can just about keep up with common Clan mechs which are frequently much lighter (which is highly important in CW) you are closer to the truth.
Clans have 3 mechs to choose from: TBR, SCR, and EBJ. IS has more variety, and our competitive mechs can keep up, if not out-perform some of the clan builds (the DRG-1N might be silly, but 12 of them are a huge problem to deal with for even good teams).
I think what really would help a lot would be if the "looking for group" function would be remodeled, for now it's very basic.
They were given the tools they asked for and they are not used in any meaningful way to justify the expense. Wasted money for the most part, except for Faction Chat.
These tools were "needed" by these players to put them on even footing with other groups.
As it turns out, the lack of these tools were excuses for why these players were loosing. With or without the tools, they still loose. So, it was not the availability, or lack of, these tools that makes a difference. It was/is the players themselves.
So, adding or changing the functionality of these tools, based off how they are not used, will not make any difference. More wasted time and money for something that will not be used by the people that said they wanted it and needed it.
That's the thing though, have you looked at the CW map lately? Clans are not winning easily,
Say what?
The clans have conquered about 58 planets in the past week alone. The IS has conquered one. Immediately at the beginning of an attack phase, you always see several attack queues filling up on multiple planets. It's been days since I have seen even a single IS attack queue (which naturally led nowhere since it is not possible to conquer a planet with a single queue.)
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Clans have 3 mechs to choose from: TBR, SCR, and EBJ.
HBR too.
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IS has more variety, and our competitive mechs can keep up, if not out-perform some of the clan builds
If your reading of the relative power of Mechs follows the same logic as your reading of the CW map, I reserve my right to doubt your conclusions.
NS is the top unit of House Kurita. In fact, they are a big part of the DCMS.
Koshirou, on 23 June 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:
Say what?
The clans have conquered about 58 planets in the past week alone. The IS has conquered one. Immediately at the beginning of an attack phase, you always see several attack queues filling up on multiple planets. It's been days since I have seen even a single IS attack queue (which naturally led nowhere since it is not possible to conquer a planet with a single queue.)
That still has more to do with the fact that you get more pugs on the defense queue clogging up border planets, and causing losses. When IS units fight against clan units, the matches go significantly closer. (This is actually another big problems people have had with CW since the beginning. Kurita was losing planets to Smoke Jaguar despite their units winning most of their drops against the jaguars, because for every two drops they win, the pugs lose 4).
Koshirou, on 23 June 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:
HBR too.
I stand corrected, they have 4 mechs to choose from.
Koshirou, on 23 June 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:
If your reading of the relative power of Mechs follows the same logic as your reading of the CW map, I reserve my right to doubt your conclusions.
That's fine. It's just that there's a big difference between looking at the meta mechs list, and not even fully processing the whole thing, and piloting the mechs, in action, and seeing how they work in the mode.
NS is the top unit of House Kurita. In fact, they are a big part of the DCMS.
Get current. NS has not been in House Kurita for a month now. Suffice to say, I'm a little more on top of things as far as HK goes than you are.
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That still has more to do with the fact that you get more pugs on the defense queue clogging up border planets, and causing losses.
You said that "Clans are not winning easily". A simple look at the current CW developments says that they are winning easily. That you now offer a reason why they win easily does not change the fact that your original assessment that they do not was wrong. That you offered the CW map as proof of that patently wrong statement - when a look at the CW map clearly shows that the Clans are steamrolling the IS - makes the whole thing only more bizarre.
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I stand corrected, they have 4 mechs to choose from.
Actually, the Dire Wolf too. And it doesn't matter: Even if they had only one Mech to choose from - if that single Mech was better than all IS Mechs, it would upset the balance. As it does.
Get current. NS has not been in House Kurita for a month now. Suffice to say, I'm a little more on top of things as far as HK goes than you are.
I know, you do know they are coming back, right?
You do also run into a bunch of Kurita, non-NS players there every now and then.
Koshirou, on 23 June 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:
You said that "Clans are not winning easily". A simple look at the current CW developments says that they are winning easily. That you now offer a reason why they win easily does not change the fact that your original assessment that they do not was wrong. That you offered the CW map as proof of that patently wrong statement - when a look at the CW map clearly shows that the Clans are steamrolling the IS - makes the whole thing only more bizarre.
Ok. Here's the full list:
Merc population
Pug flood
and final conclusion: Clans aren't winning because of OP tech. That's the main point I've been trying to make. Your original statement about IS being farmed by clans was attributed to tech disparity, and the "supposed to lose" side. Which really isn't true.
When IS had the mercs on their side, they farmed the clans. Hell in CW1 clan wolf practically stopped playing when they lost their mercs, because they were the ones doing most of the heavy lifting. CGB had the same thing happen to them.
Clan Smoke Jaguar, and Clan Jade Falcon were the only ones with stable populations, and their pilots really worked together. Which is why they are the ones that have been the most consistent through all of CW.
Right now, CW is about the side with most numbers on the board. Clans have the numbers (until the mercs switch back again), IS don't, and the reason isn't tech.
Seriously, plenty of house units have stopped playing for all kinds of reasons, some of the most important ones are things like the fact that they are shafted, in terms of rewards, for being a loyal house unit. Most of us can make more C-Bills dropping in the public queue. There is no real substance in the game, and even if our faction is reduced to one planet, it still has zero impact on us. On top of it all. We have no real goal. The clans are aiming for Terra. What's ours? Stop them? That's not really a goal. That's a strategy, and most of us won't even bother stepping in until they are close to Terra, if at all.
They were given the tools they asked for and they are not used in any meaningful way to justify the expense. Wasted money for the most part, except for Faction Chat.
These tools were "needed" by these players to put them on even footing with other groups.
As it turns out, the lack of these tools were excuses for why these players were loosing. With or without the tools, they still loose. So, it was not the availability, or lack of, these tools that makes a difference. It was/is the players themselves.
So, adding or changing the functionality of these tools, based off how they are not used, will not make any difference. More wasted time and money for something that will not be used by the people that said they wanted it and needed it.
You make a large error here, you say THEY wanted, i assume the THEY you refer to is the Pug population right?
You dont know what THEY wanted as Very, very few of They come onto the forums or voted on anything, a FEW may of said what they wanted here on forums but those few dont speak for THEY the majority of pugs who dont visit or partake of Forums.
You make a large error here, you say THEY wanted, i assume the THEY you refer to is the Pug population right?
You dont know what THEY wanted as Very, very few of They come onto the forums or voted on anything, a FEW may of said what they wanted here on forums but those few dont speak for THEY the majority of pugs who dont visit or partake of Forums.
Those are the ones with the voices that count. a nebulous silent majority is useless, if it is silent, and as soon as they speak, someone immediately invalidates them, and says they are not part of this mystical "Silent majority"
Those are the ones with the voices that count. a nebulous silent majority is useless, if it is silent, and as soon as they speak, someone immediately invalidates them, and says they are not part of this mystical "Silent majority"
Obviously they dont count if you are saying (the post i quoted) that tools were asked for by a minority and not use by the majority.
Obviously they dont count if you are saying (the post i quoted) that tools were asked for by a minority and not use by the majority.
No, they count more than anything else. Because they spoke up. The ones that didn't speak up clearly didn't need anything, or didn't bother with making an effort. Not to mention that by your own words and logic, you do not speak for them, nor can you champion them, as you don't know what they want, or don't want.
The only thing we can do, is communicate with the ones that communicate back, those that don't. Don't count.
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IraqiWalker, on 21 June 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:
