102 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Lexx, on 22 June 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

I think gauss chargeup time should be reduced for IS mechs, and/or increased for clan mechs. Since their gauss weighs 3 tons less and takes up less space, a longer chargeup time would be a good way to balance things.

Except every single (or very nearly) IS mech able to mount gauss does so with quirks making it already better than Clan Gauss. Most of them with things like 10% cooldown increase etc, which is a very substantial advantage.

[Lugh]

B8hunter, on 22 June 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Hey genius, you can change your hardpoints! What did they screw up your genes in the iron womb?

I am not talking about hardpoints I am talking about Endosteel And engine size.

Edited by Lugh, 22 June 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Nightshade24]

speleomaniac, on 22 June 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

My argument is, as a same player doing from 200 dmg per game in XL engined Gauss DS to 500-600 with non Gauss STD engine build, for me is a sort of a proof how crap the XL engine + Gauss combination sucks in IS mechs other then Jäger + Catapult, in my opinion it still suck with Jäger while that Gauss and XL is covered with 40 armor in a world that every freaking mech has 40 Alpha.

and my arguement, is the same player (me) doing 500-1100 dmg per game in an XL battlemaster (or using victor as example, 450-800 dmg per game with XL) and then 110-250 dmg in a std battlemaster (or using victor as example, 120-210 dmg per game with std). For me this is sort of proof it depends on how you use the mech and how you peform and not the mechs or equipments fault.

Also if you suck in a duel gauss jagermech then that may be more of a skill issue or putting the wrong person to the wrong job. As there are many people out there who do very well with it including me and such. Keep in mind, you can expose yourself to only 10 or 5% of your mech.

how will a mech 600 meters away see 2 little lumps go over a ridge and shoot or respond at it before an instant 30 damage of near no heat alpha hits them.

Also there are quite a few mechs that can do 40 damage alpha, but not a lot can do it...
1) without ghost heat or shutting down
2) without having damage spread as an issue
3) without having to get under 260 range
4) without running 50% of your normal armour.
5) without being to slow.

You are complaining earlier on a 35 damage alpha on a DS being pathetic. (switching ppc's to large pulse would be 37 damage alpha btw... AC 20 + 2 large pulse laser would be 42 damage alpha... or 2 ppc + ac 20 as was the later meta for the DS a 40 damage alpha). It isn't really, I mean that's 35 damage alpha hitting as far away as 600 meters and hitting hard till 1000 with modules. Not many clan mechs or IS can do that without it being a DPS value of AC's and such. and to be frank as I said above in this paragraph, you yourself can do 40 damage alpha or higher! You are using a weapon that trades firepower for range and heat, and then complain it doesn't do the same damage as other weapons.
Like me saying the er large laser is bad as it does the same damage as a normal large laser but hotter.
or a clan SSRM is useless as it is less accurate then a normal C SRM but takes forever to reload and can't be fired without a lock.

also I do not really think you know what you are doing or saying. You said you do not want to persuade anyone because this is an internet...
Then why did you make this thread in the first place? your whole point is to persuade people to make a change to MW: O.

Explanation: you want to persuade the community this is a good idea and not just some random idiot flaming or what ever. Persuading the community is the best way to persuade the devs as 1 major point of evidence.
You want to persuade to devs to do this change to the game. Because atm they think it's alright or may need to nerf the IS gauss rifle, but you're sitting here saying otherwise.

and the whole reason I would not a make a new thread; is that would be thread spamming and can possibly be punishable. And that we're discussing the same point but different sides of it.


if you do not want to persuade anyone, then deleting this thread would be the best option I would say. However you obvious due to want to have a short debate and to persuade people.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 22 June 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Except every single (or very nearly) IS mech able to mount gauss does so with quirks making it already better than Clan Gauss. Most of them with things like 10% cooldown increase etc, which is a very substantial advantage.

Weapon quirks don't boost weapons as a whole, they boost individual chassis (in this case, increase the damage output of the mech in question).

If you could put that Clan Goose on that same quirked IS mech, it would be directly better than the IS Goose.

Frankly, even without gun quirks, 3 extra tons means that you might be able to carry more weapons, like say a few ERML, which easily closes the damage gap.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 22 June 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Weapon quirks don't boost weapons as a whole, they boost individual chassis (in this case, increase the damage output of the mech in question).

semantics. The fact remains that every IS chassis reasonably expected to carry a gauss rifle does so better than a clan mech with a cGauss. 10% Cooldown - a very average general ballistic quirk - is hardly insignificant.

Quote

If you could put that Clan Goose on that same quirked IS mech, it would be directly better than the IS Goose.

Frankly, even without gun quirks, 3 extra tons means that you might be able to carry more weapons, like say a few ERML, which easily closes the damage gap.

But you can't mount cGauss on IS mechs. It's lighter, but isn't buffed by quirks . And Is mechs can downgrade their engine to get more tonnage to make up that gap.

[Wintersdark]

I'm not making any clan vs. Is arguments above, I'll note. It's a complex subject, and clan xl's etc. But people need to stfu about clan gauss being inherently better when in practice, on the battlefield, IS mechs are always firing it with better stats.

For better or worse, you can't compare list weapon stats anymore.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 22 June 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

semantics. The fact remains that every IS chassis reasonably expected to carry a gauss rifle does so better than a clan mech with a cGauss. 10% Cooldown - a very average general ballistic quirk - is hardly insignificant.

If I had to choose between 3 tons or 10% faster firing, I'm gonna choose 3 tons. You can put that tonnage into more ammo, armor, engine, heatsinks, or some combination of those.

Wintersdark, on 22 June 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

But you can't mount cGauss on IS mechs. It's lighter, but isn't buffed by quirks . And Is mechs can downgrade their engine to get more tonnage to make up that gap.

Downgrading your engine is a red herring that covers up the fact that you have to sacrifice more tonnage in the first place. You also have to deal with the reduced stats that the lower engine provides.

Smurfy Design Challenge: Can you get a Jagermech to run at 89 kph with twin Gauss, about 5 tons of ammo, 15 damage worth of backup lasers, being able to survive a side-torso destruction, and while still having max torso armor and good leg armor? (You'll have to strip a whole arm, but you don't need that one arm anyways). Or, if you want more armor than that, downgrade to 2 ER Smalls instead of 3.

A Cauldron Born can, because that 6 tons saved comes in handy, even with 3 forced DHS in the engine. A twin Gauss Jager, the closest equivalent, is gonna have to take a tiny engine that gives it a speed (and agility) profile similar to a Stalker, while also having to deal with fragile IS XL issues.

[Wintersdark]

See my follow up post, Fup. I wasn't making some "oh poor clan mechs" post. You should know well my stand on that issue, particularly given I spend more time in IS mechs than clan Mechs.

All I'm saying is, you can't directly compare weapon stats. Yes, cGauss is lighter, but IS gauss (almost always) fires faster, or further, etc. Is the exchange worth it? That varies. Not always, and player/style/situation matter a lot; but then you're getting into much more complicated discussions that reach far beyond the baseline stats of the two weapons.

[Lightfoot]

Honestly it needs the charge-up removed if just one is equipped, Clan and IS, there is no reason for it. Lower the meters per second if it is still too much. It would be OP if it did not apply to both factions because it is a terrible nerf that blocks about 80% of MWO players from using the Gauss Rifle.

Actually the Clan and IS Gauss are the most similar of all the weapons. They are junk unless 2xGauss are used, but equally krap.

[topgun505]

Strum. I wish they had followed that from the beginning. At least then boating wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as it is and the game would be far easier for the devs to balance. Of course, you always have people saying "But then you will only have a couple of mechs which are considered good and the rest trash." Though .. really ... I don't see that what we have now is all that different from that point of view. Want to go a light mech in comp? It pretty much is take a FSR or go home. So ... yeah.

But at this point everyone is addicted to the current mechlab and min-maxing everything to the extreme ... too late to go back now. You will have to wait until the next incarnation of MW. Which ... considering it took what ... over 10 years between the previous one and MWO ... it will probably be another decade after this one dies before someone tries to reboot the franchise again.

[speleomaniac]

Nightshade24, on 22 June 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

and my arguement, is the same player (me) doing 500-1100 dmg per game in an XL battlemaster (or using victor as example, 450-800 dmg per game with XL) and then 110-250 dmg in a std battlemaster (or using victor as example, 120-210 dmg per game with std). For me this is sort of proof it depends on how you use the mech and how you peform and not the mechs or equipments fault.

Also if you suck in a duel gauss jagermech then that may be more of a skill issue or putting the wrong person to the wrong job. As there are many people out there who do very well with it including me and such. Keep in mind, you can expose yourself to only 10 or 5% of your mech.

how will a mech 600 meters away see 2 little lumps go over a ridge and shoot or respond at it before an instant 30 damage of near no heat alpha hits them.

Also there are quite a few mechs that can do 40 damage alpha, but not a lot can do it...
1) without ghost heat or shutting down
2) without having damage spread as an issue
3) without having to get under 260 range
4) without running 50% of your normal armour.
5) without being to slow.

You are complaining earlier on a 35 damage alpha on a DS being pathetic. (switching ppc's to large pulse would be 37 damage alpha btw... AC 20 + 2 large pulse laser would be 42 damage alpha... or 2 ppc + ac 20 as was the later meta for the DS a 40 damage alpha). It isn't really, I mean that's 35 damage alpha hitting as far away as 600 meters and hitting hard till 1000 with modules. Not many clan mechs or IS can do that without it being a DPS value of AC's and such. and to be frank as I said above in this paragraph, you yourself can do 40 damage alpha or higher! You are using a weapon that trades firepower for range and heat, and then complain it doesn't do the same damage as other weapons.
Like me saying the er large laser is bad as it does the same damage as a normal large laser but hotter.
or a clan SSRM is useless as it is less accurate then a normal C SRM but takes forever to reload and can't be fired without a lock.

also I do not really think you know what you are doing or saying. You said you do not want to persuade anyone because this is an internet...
Then why did you make this thread in the first place? your whole point is to persuade people to make a change to MW: O.

Explanation: you want to persuade the community this is a good idea and not just some random idiot flaming or what ever. Persuading the community is the best way to persuade the devs as 1 major point of evidence.
You want to persuade to devs to do this change to the game. Because atm they think it's alright or may need to nerf the IS gauss rifle, but you're sitting here saying otherwise.

and the whole reason I would not a make a new thread; is that would be thread spamming and can possibly be punishable. And that we're discussing the same point but different sides of it.


if you do not want to persuade anyone, then deleting this thread would be the best option I would say. However you obvious due to want to have a short debate and to persuade people.

You are the living example of what I mean about internet debate.

Whatever I say I will say, I will not able to convince you and you will not able change my opinion, the moment you discern this, you deviate from the subject and bring it to personal level.

I am better player, you suck. Really is this all you can say.

I want to make this thread and I made it. I don't have to explain anything to you.

I had awesome games in dual Gauss Jäger 800-900 damage, but I had game somebody alpha ed me for 60 damage my side torso/arm and I died instantly.

Still shows my point that you are in a big disadvantage with XL + Gaussed IS mech. One mistake and I am goner with my IS mech but clan mech never pays such a high price.

And you can't mount AC/20 to a DS.

Edited by speleomaniac, 23 June 2015 - 01:35 AM.

[speleomaniac]

zazz0000, on 22 June 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

IDK man, I've been runnin my CTF-3d w/ twin gauss 4ml for a loooong time. XL-255 or so, slow as it can get. To make things more fun, not only does losing a side torso kills you, losing your right arm gauss has a very good chance at causing a chain reaction to your right torso gauss and killing you. Still, a risk I'm more than happy to take, as that mech has performed better for me than anything else, IS or Clan. Maybe it has more to do with the pilot?

Well let me say this way, in 3D you can only survive and deal damage, specially after jump sniping dead, if enemy ignores you.

In any mech in this game, if I will see you in a XL 255 + Gaussed 3D and I decide to kill you, you will die.

That is the prob with XLed DS also, you are an Assault you are a priority target for the enemy and worst bigger last maneuverable then 3D.

I accept, in an organized game env, prob DS will excel but PUG queue, you will be isolated and 2 alpha to side torso, done deal.

Eyepop, on 22 June 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

Actually, it's more proof of how awful you are. I get more than 200 damage per match in a ERPPC Locust PB. Maybe your problem is that you have no idea how to aim.

I deal regularly 500 damage in may XLed Firestarter's.

What is you point of comparing XLed 80 ton assault with an insect.

Edited by speleomaniac, 23 June 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[Nightshade24]

speleomaniac, on 23 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

You are the living example of what I mean about internet debate.

Whatever I say I will say, I will not able to convince you and you will not able change my opinion, the moment you discern this, you deviate from the subject and bring it to personal level.

I am better player, you suck. Really is this all you can say.

I want to make this thread and I made it. I don't have to explain anything to you.

I had awesome games in dual Gauss Jäger 800-900 damage, but I had game somebody alpha ed me for 60 damage my side torso/arm and I died instantly.

Still shows my point that you are in a big disadvantage with XL + Gaussed IS mech. One mistake and I am goner with my IS mech but clan mech never pays such a high price.

And you can't mount AC/20 to a DS.

Not really, I am the living example of a normal debate, if you want to take me as a metaphor that is. If I am a internet debate I would call you certain swear words and say "I am right because my american level iz higher then yours n000b, get gut and **** off!"

I didn't say I am a better player then you, I said you were different. We are all different in this game and have different PLAYSTYLES, SKILLS, and OPINIONS. You suck in XL engine + Gauss mechs and that is you. You need practice, time, patient, or a combination for that specific play style and that's alright, as I can assume you are very good at other stuff.

Same with me. I am not that good on the alpha seaking meta clan builds at all nor am I good at using medium pulse laser spam on light mechs. I could make a thread now about how medium pulse lasers for IS is to hot, but I've seen firestarters core fresh assault mechs with an odd build of like 6 or 8 medium pulse lasers and run off as you are wondering what the hell just happened to your CT.

You do not have to explain anything, but you are... that sentence right there IS you explaining stuff to me.

Also I died in an early game with 60 or LESS damage in clan mechs often as well, so I did as well in my IS mechs as well , Standard or XL engine. The thing is mistakes happen all the time and of course bad things will happen.

it doesn't happen often you make the worst mistake possible in MW: O and as a result you got 5 kills and 1000 damage from that game because of the mistake.

It's very common in the direwolf for eg, you often always get left behind by NASCAR, maybe you thought you can fit in a passage and couldn't and now 400 extra meters behind your nascar team. or maybe your a brawler build on alpine peaks and didn't get into battle early enough or didn't use cover and died. Quite often get 0 damage games in that thing.

As well as any light mech, dying instantly with no mercy...

Or being a brawler mech showing to much CT time and not enough Side time. etc...

Or firing your PPC's at a enemy under 90 meters.

mistakes happen at the time but for ALL mechs it is a very negative impact depending on the mistake.
Same reason that screws you over in your mech is the same reason that can screw over a brawler STD victor or a clan mech.


Your big disadvantage isn't that big as you make it out to be... as the saying goes. Don't make a Direwolf out of a Kitfox... no wait that was meant to talk about mountains and mole hills... ah forget it. you know what I mean =P

the advantages you get with Xl engine is the fact you have so much weight saving just for an increase size and side torso explosion. For some mechs (specificly in my case) battlemaster, banshee, etc. that's a big enough difference that I do not need to worry about the enemy killing me because I KILL them with my superior firepower and agility faster then they can hurt me... ofc I use my agility to role damage as well.


Listen. As much as you may think I am a clan cry baby who only wants to troll you and is the bane of your existence and why the internet isn't fun for you. I am doing nothing besides trying to help you in many ways.

Spending already hours of my day with this thread and commenting to you directly.


This time is what you make out of it. If you choose to waste or squander it, your choice. But do not think for a moment it was I that wasted your time, as there is only 1 person in the mirror when you look at it, and that is you. Your choices... as you said.

[Mr Hunter]

Lugh, on 22 June 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

I am not talking about hardpoints I am talking about Endosteel And engine size.

That's what make your mechs unique with out them they'd just be normal battlemechs. You can change your hardpoints but you have fixed equipment built around the omni pod capability as a result, deal with it.

[LowSubmarino]

Quite frankly...I wouldnt even want the chargeup to be taken away again neither from IS nor Clan.

If anything Id like the charged/firing 'window' to be even smaller if that means it will prevent most ppl from using Gauss.

Once you are used to the mechanics you dont even consciously register charging the weapon. It happens instinctively and is no obstacle whatsoever.

The gauss rifle ist one of the best weapons in the game.

Other ballistic weapons have too many downsides. Gauss is pin point dmg that actually allows you to hit stuff at great distances.

This pathetic insignificant charge up doesnt nerf gauss one tiny bit.

Gauss is fantastic.

Hellbringer + Gauss = ♡

[Escef]

speleomaniac, on 23 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

Whatever I say I will say, I will not able to convince you and you will not able change my opinion, the moment you discern this, you deviate from the subject and bring it to personal level.

Than just block him and be done with it. Honestly, I'm tempted to block him, simply because he seems to have no idea how to make a point quickly. Every time I turn around he's posting a damned manifesto instead of a forum post. Guy writes enough to fill a book every 3 freakin' days, I swear. One of those that are far too in love with their own prose.

[Vlaitor]

The charge up mechanism is fine. It gives more depth and strategy.

[Lugh]

speleomaniac, on 23 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

You are the living example of what I mean about internet debate.

Whatever I say I will say, I will not able to convince you and you will not able change my opinion, the moment you discern this, you deviate from the subject and bring it to personal level.

I am better player, you suck. Really is this all you can say.

I want to make this thread and I made it. I don't have to explain anything to you.

I had awesome games in dual Gauss Jäger 800-900 damage, but I had game somebody alpha ed me for 60 damage my side torso/arm and I died instantly.

Still shows my point that you are in a big disadvantage with XL + Gaussed IS mech. One mistake and I am goner with my IS mech but clan mech never pays such a high price.

And you can't mount AC/20 to a DS.

So you want all reward and no risk?

Poor poor IS pilot.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Vlaitor, on 23 June 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

The charge up mechanism is fine. It gives more depth and strategy.

fine ?

[Lugh]

http://<a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=54&l=5dfa9f6c43bbc01d1a911b16c44dcf104d640c1c">ILYA MUROMETS Dual Gauss Standard</a>

FupDup, on 22 June 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

If I had to choose between 3 tons or 10% faster firing, I'm gonna choose 3 tons. You can put that tonnage into more ammo, armor, engine, heatsinks, or some combination of those.



Downgrading your engine is a red herring that covers up the fact that you have to sacrifice more tonnage in the first place. You also have to deal with the reduced stats that the lower engine provides.

Smurfy Design Challenge: Can you get a Jagermech to run at 89 kph with twin Gauss, about 5 tons of ammo, 15 damage worth of backup lasers, being able to survive a side-torso destruction, and while still having max torso armor and good leg armor? (You'll have to strip a whole arm, but you don't need that one arm anyways). Or, if you want more armor than that, downgrade to 2 ER Smalls instead of 3.

A Cauldron Born can, because that 6 tons saved comes in handy, even with 3 forced DHS in the engine. A twin Gauss Jager, the closest equivalent, is gonna have to take a tiny engine that gives it a speed (and agility) profile similar to a Stalker, while also having to deal with fragile IS XL issues.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44dcf104d640c1c

The only thing it's missing is the 89 kph. Which shouldn't be a big deal because you'll be staying with your assaults anyway.

This is the faster kill me instantly clan version:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4315c6c12a554a8

Edited by Lugh, 23 June 2015 - 08:00 AM.