62 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

I said hardcore "realism" mode. In that mode, you have to have capacitor banks for lasers, PPCs, and Gauss rifles because, in real life (and most respectable fiction), a fusion reaction can't be scaled up or down in spikes; that's not how a fusion (or fission, or even fossil fuel) reaction works. It's going to be a relatively constant thermal output that you convert to electricity. That by itself will generate a bunch of heat to be disposed of, so we just assume that any heat capacity we have for weapons is overhead to our reactor's load management. The electrical output is going to be automatically stored in capacitor banks for each installed, electric weapon. Firing will incur a heat spike because of a massive current draw, and charging will incur a lesser heat spike because it has to draw that same energy up again in what is roughly three times the time it took to fire it, which is still pretty fast. The constant thermal load from the weapon to hold that charge depends on how efficient the capacitors are at storing a charge. Based on how utterly inept the scientists in BTech seem to be, I'm going to go out and a limb and say that they are probably mediocre at best. Because they are mediocre and because the energy involved to make photons and ions damaging to hardened targets and to move slugs at Mach 7+ are tremendous, that "minimal" thermal load will remain fairly hefty.

You are going also to have to make sure your total power expenditures in charging installed weapons doesn't exceed your power output, or your weapons will have to charge in series instead of in parallel, adding to the delay if you want to fire them all together.

Finally, if the Gauss is so cool in BTech terms, then the AC/20 should be just as cool.

Actually, the scientist and engineers who created the toys used in BTech weren't inept or mediocre, that is the result of the last few hundred years of constant war, which killed off those scientists and engineers and destroyed the repositories of their knowledge. Star League equipment is much better stuff, LosTech, what the Clans used as their base and improved on over the same time frame that the Inner Sphere were destroying it all.

Mechs aren't cool running machines, they are hot all the time. There's a reason why MechWarriors at the time we're in for MWO, at least in the Inner Sphere, wear little inside a Mech, it's HOT in there when you aren't in combat just from the Mech being powered up and moving. They wear, typically, shorts, boots, and a cooling vest, that's it, it's that hot in an operational Mech before you start running(increases heat) or firing weapons(massive increases in heat) or using jump jets(increase in heat yet again).

Gauss would be cold compared to most of the weapon system, superconductive material, which the Star League was good with, means you don't have high heat spikes of wasted energy conversion. Gauss are actually kind of rare in the Inner Sphere at this time, essentially LosTech, with most of them being hundreds of years old, even the ones being used in factories on newly built Mechs. Real coilguns right now aren't high heat systems, low energy systems, which is the beauty of coilguns, it's not the amount of power, it's the timing of the magnets that produces the velocity of the projectile. Railguns are power anchored, you need more power to get the projectile moving faster, so they ARE hot and they use a LOT of energy.

BattleTech isn't big on following real world physics, the guys who created it didn't know what they were writing about, it was just cool stuff and most of it just SOUNDED good.

[Drasari]

No.

[CDLord HHGD]

Mystere, on 22 June 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Well, I'm not one of those who accept change just for change's sake. I really need to know the "Why?".

I'm in the US, you don't have to tell me about change for change's sake....

Identifying myself as not a fan of the meta, I support the OP's suggestions if not his intent. I knew perfectly well what he was getting at as will most people on either side of the discussion.

[Kristov Kerensky]

cdlord, on 22 June 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

I'm in the US, you don't have to tell me about change for change's sake....

Identifying myself as not a fan of the meta, I support the OP's suggestions if not his intent. I knew perfectly well what he was getting at as will most people on either side of the discussion.

Changing the meta doesn't require nerfing weapons that have no reason to be nerfed, and how will nerfing Gauss help with the laservomit?

Better to give more weapons MORE functionality as opposed to nerfing something that's not only not an issue but isn't even at the heart of the larger problem.

Again, the OP and some others just want the Gauss nerfed because.

[Naduk]

always figured the charge time was a firing solution from your targeting computer (thinking firing a torpedo)
as the capacitors would charge during the cool down time

its a different game and combat environment
but your targeting computer needs to deal with all this kind of information so that your weapons hit whats under your reticule

Edited by Naduk, 22 June 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[Ace Selin]

Gauss is probably the most balanced weapon in the game right now. Doesn't need any changes at all, thanks

[Y E O N N E]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Actually, the scientist and engineers who created the toys used in BTech weren't inept or mediocre, that is the result of the last few hundred years of constant war, which killed off those scientists and engineers and destroyed the repositories of their knowledge. Star League equipment is much better stuff, LosTech, what the Clans used as their base and improved on over the same time frame that the Inner Sphere were destroying it all.

Spoiler

It doesn't take decades to figure out how to increase the range or rate of fire of a ballistic weapon. In the real world, we made those changes on the fly during war. I can understand getting bombed back a couple centuries and I can understand not getting reacquainted with the fancy tech like lasers and PPCs quickly. I can't understand taking damn near another century to realize "oh, hey, increasing the powder charge increases velocity and, thus, range!" Alternatively, simply increasing barrel length will improve the range (and velocity) up to a point. Simple trial and error by curious manufacturers would have revealed as much. Even when they did finally figure it out, I don't get how making the firing mechanism slightly larger to accommodate the slightly beefier cassettes and a sturdier barrel to take the increased charge warrants 4 extra tons for an HVAC/5 over an AC/5.

For that matter, I don't understand why you'd want to fire from cassettes at all instead of an auto-feed mechanism of single rounds. They've got machine guns in this universe, so don't tell me they don't know how to scale it up. We were doing it as soon as the machine gun was invented. Or how about Gatling weapons? It doesn't take a genius to realize "oh snap, if I put a motor on the back of this it can fire on its own without me cranking it!" They should have had that long before Clans showed up. Take the rounds being used in those cassettes, put them on links, in gravity feed, or a wound magazine, and fire them for as long as your heat-sinks can take it. Burst fire is inferior as it wastes ammunition and creates gaps to be taken advantage of.

I also can't understand how even after 80 years of analysis they can't figure out how to replicate Clan equipment exactly when they've had captured examples since the original invasion. They kicked ComStar out of power and so they've had ample time to figure out better metallurgy, etc. without nefarious interference.

So, you'll forgive me if I don't buy that their people aren't inept. It take a special level of stupidity to be in the business of making war and not know how to improve your implements at all, especially when your society is described as having the technological aptitude of 1950+. Even Warhammer 40k does better than that; at least science is actually forbidden in their universe.

Quote

Mechs aren't cool running machines, they are hot all the time. There's a reason why MechWarriors at the time we're in for MWO, at least in the Inner Sphere, wear little inside a Mech, it's HOT in there when you aren't in combat just from the Mech being powered up and moving. They wear, typically, shorts, boots, and a cooling vest, that's it, it's that hot in an operational Mech before you start running(increases heat) or firing weapons(massive increases in heat) or using jump jets(increase in heat yet again).

I never said they were cold.

Quote

Gauss would be cold compared to most of the weapon system, superconductive material, which the Star League was good with, means you don't have high heat spikes of wasted energy conversion. Gauss are actually kind of rare in the Inner Sphere at this time, essentially LosTech, with most of them being hundreds of years old, even the ones being used in factories on newly built Mechs. Real coilguns right now aren't high heat systems, low energy systems, which is the beauty of coilguns, it's not the amount of power, it's the timing of the magnets that produces the velocity of the projectile. Railguns are power anchored, you need more power to get the projectile moving faster, so they ARE hot and they use a LOT of energy.

You are misinformed. Real coil-guns don't [so far] operate at weapons-grade energy levels. You see home-built projects, but nothing firing a 100 kilo slug at hypersonic velocities has been demonstrated as far as I am aware. You have to dump lots of energy very quickly into those coils in very precisely timed sequence to give the slug enough oomph to accelerate it to those speeds in a reasonably short distance, and that begets crazy amounts of heat. It's in the math and it's not debatable. If you want to take all day to accelerate to Mach 7+, then yes, you won't get as much waste heat per second.

As for super-conductors, in a more grounded setting you still have to keep them chilled which itself begets heat. So maybe you might not have a large firing spike, but you will have a considerable amount of steady-state heat generation on top of whatever your reactor and the myomer are producing.

No matter how you slice it, the Gauss Rifle should be a hot weapon. Otherwise, the AC/20 is inappropriately toasty.

Quote

BattleTech isn't big on following real world physics, the guys who created it didn't know what they were writing about, it was just cool stuff and most of it just SOUNDED good.

Hence the "respectable fiction" quip. I'm not into rule-of-cool because it's lazy and my mind doesn't work that way, but I do sometimes envy people who can just let it go. Still, most of the BTech fluff is there to justify rules that were made to balance the Table Top game, not the other way around, and so the story comes across as shoehorned...because it is.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeonne, it's a game, one created by some folks who really didn't know anything about tech, science, the military or weapons, but it's still fun to play. Don't look for realistic things in it, they are few and far between and totally accidental. For starters, the premise of 12m tall walking humanoid tanks is just pure stupidity from a combat standpoint, and it's all downhill from there.

And superconductors that need to be cooled, not going to work on a Mech. And since scientist have discovered room temp superconductive material already, so I'm willing to suspend belief enough to accept it's use in BTech a few thousand years out.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 22 June 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

The biggest problem with Gauss IMO is the max range. In tabletop Gauss and LRMs are supposed to have the same max range.

But in MWO LRMs max out at 1000m (but honestly arnt very effective past 600m) while Gauss maxes out at 2178m with a range module. The range module doesnt help LRMs at all since it doesnt increase the abysmally slow missile speed.

I think Gauss max range need to be lowered to x2 optimal range to match suit with autocannons which also had their max ranges reduced to x2.

I'm not going to kick & scream about nerfing the max range, but considering the role of the gauss rifle I don't see it as a big deal if it has 3x max range either. I also wonder if a max range nerf would really change much, because really all it would do is make the gauss rifle do less damage at 700-1000m since not many people snipe further than that.

I guess mostly what I'm saying is if such a change is actually needed then it wouldn't be unjustified because it's the only weapon with 3x max range now, but does the max range actually need to be changed or should something else change or is the gauss rifle fine as it is? Personally, I think the gauss rifle is fine other than that the clan gauss rifle should have some sort of extra drawback compared to the IS gauss rifle and it should be able to hold a charged shot for longer, but those are relatively minor issues when considering some ridiculous "I DON'T LIKE GAUSS RIFLES + ENERGY SO NERF IT INTO THE GROUND!!!!!" proposal.

[Y E O N N E]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Yeonne, it's a game, one created by some folks who really didn't know anything about tech, science, the military or weapons, but it's still fun to play. Don't look for realistic things in it, they are few and far between and totally accidental. For starters, the premise of 12m tall walking humanoid tanks is just pure stupidity from a combat standpoint, and it's all downhill from there.

And superconductors that need to be cooled, not going to work on a Mech. And since scientist have discovered room temp superconductive material already, so I'm willing to suspend belief enough to accept it's use in BTech a few thousand years out.

I know it's a game, but if people are going to use science as an authority that says "yup, this weapon should be cold" then they should get it right. They aren't, and that's why I say what I do. Even you were implying a real coil gun is cold based purely on operating principle and that is, simply, wrong.

And no, scientists have not discovered room-temperature superconductors yet. We have developed superconductors that operate significantly closer to 0 degrees centigrade than before (high pressure hydrogen sulfide is another one), but nothing that even approaches being able to operate at a comfortable 26 degrees, or 299 K. If we had, we'd also have nuclear fusion since it's maintaining a containment field strong enough to keep the fusion process going that is preventing us from constructing commercially viable reactors. Needs high current, uses more power than it produces, etc.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm not going to kick & scream about nerfing the max range, but considering the role of the gauss rifle I don't see it as a big deal if it has 3x max range either

Well the problem with it having 3x max range is that its range is completely our of whack with other long range weapons like LRMs. LRMs and Gauss have almost identical ranges in tabletop. Yet in MWO LRMs have like half the effective range of Gauss.

LRMs are supposed to be LONG RANGE missiles but they feel like MRMs because of how long-ranged everything else is in comparison.

Now you could increase the range of LRMs and increase their speed. But that could cause some pretty major balance problems given the fragile balance state of LRMs. Itd be safer and easier just to decrease the range of Gauss and maybe decrease the range of some of the clan lasers (CLPL&CERML in particular).

Clan gauss/energy is just too good right now and it doesnt inspire clans to make choices when it comes to using autocannons or missile weapons instead. Not only would reducing the ranges on those weapons help bring some range parity back to LRMs. But it would also make the clan autocannons more appealing by comparison. So its win-win.

Win-win-win if you also consider that nerfing clan weapons means IS quirks dont need to be as ridiculous to keep up. Because some of the IS quirks have gotten completely out of hand...

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2015 - 12:42 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I would read all this stuff if I thought gauss needed a change, but I really don't.

If it needs a nerf I'd prefer a simple tweak, like increasing the cooldown to 5s. Some difference between is and clan would be nice though, give clan gauss higher range and velocity but longer charge up for example.

Don't mess with the mechanic itself though, it's fine.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

I know it's a game, but if people are going to use science as an authority that says "yup, this weapon should be cold" then they should get it right. They aren't, and that's why I say what I do. Even you were implying a real coil gun is cold based purely on operating principle and that is, simply, wrong.

And no, scientists have not discovered room-temperature superconductors yet. We have developed superconductors that operate significantly closer to 0 degrees centigrade than before (high pressure hydrogen sulfide is another one), but nothing that even approaches being able to operate at a comfortable 26 degrees, or 299 K. If we had, we'd also have nuclear fusion since it's maintaining a containment field strong enough to keep the fusion process going that is preventing us from constructing commercially viable reactors. Needs high current, uses more power than it produces, etc.

I imply a coilgun in BTech would be cool running because it should be in comparison to the other weapon systems in use.

And you should keep up on the latest developments, http://www.scienceal...oom-temperature shows that room temp superconductive materials have been attained. It's only for a brief fraction of a second, but the fact is, it's been done, and they'll continue to refine the process until it's sustainable. So, again, I'm more than willing to believe that 1000 years from now they have and use room temp or even higher temp superconductors and make use of them in military hardware, among other applications.

If you really want to talk about the physics of the weapon systems in BTech, I'd be more than happy to in private messages. The group I played BTech with in the 80s were all college friends, we were all in the sciences, and we had many a long discussion over the stupidity of how BTech handled the systems compared to how they really should work. We still had fun playing the game despite knowing how stupid it was, we understood why the rules worked as they did so we would simply suspend belief when we played. After all, we could suspend believe in physics totally when we played a fantasy based game like D&D, so why should it be any different with BTech, since both are really fantasy games.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Okay... I didn't read ANY posts in this thread but the initial one...so I'm just gonna throw my 2 bits and leave it there

Any ADDITIONAL nerfs to the gauss rifle are ridonculous. The weapon is already incredibly hampered with charge time, and exploding if you look at it funny.

ALTERNATIVE nerfs however, in place of the charging mechanism, I would support. And there is lore to back up one idea that I like...

According to the 2nd book in the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy (Blood Legacy?) Natasha Kerensky is explaining the operation of Gauss Rifles to Phelan Wolf(Kell) It is explained that Gauss rifles require such stupendous ammounts of power, that no other high energy weapon can be fired simultaneously. Lasers, PPCs, and especially other gauss rifles cannot be fired at the same time as a Gauss. (Presumably mechanical weapon systems like ACs and Missiles should be okay)

In Phelan's trial of position, he faces Vlad who is piloting an Executioner (IIRC) equipped with dual gauss. Vlad TRIES to fire both gauss rifles simultaneously, trying to kill Phelan, however the weapons don't worj that way, and the mech automatically shunts power to one, then the other. Leaving Vlad not entirely in control of his machine.

If we had this implemented, INSTEAD OF the gauss charge, I would be tickled pink. AND it would eliminate the dual gauss alpha, as well as the gauss+PPC frontload damage. I'd like to see the Gauss get a bit more HP in this trade, too, but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary.


As for the science behind it... The Gauss rifle is a coil gun. It uses electromagnets, not superconducting magnets. In theory, the coils SHOULD prkduce quite a bit of heat, but that's based on copper conductors. Gold, or other future materials could bypass this...

The main issue with gauss rifles is recoil. Every mention of Gauss rifles in the novels puts the velocity at 'hypersonic'. If we're generous, and say it takes a whole second for thr slug to accelerate from zero to hypersonic, there would bee 200 metric TONS of recoil force for a 100 kilogram slug.

If we had knockdowns in the game, including recoil would be another way to balance the weapon. Firing a gauss rifle while airborn would pretty much kill you, as your mech would fly backwards uncontrollably and smash to bits on the rocks. Though, this would also be true of getting HIT with a gauss while airborn. These rules would apply to autocannons as well, albeit to a lesser extent.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 23 June 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Twilight Fenrir, on 23 June 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Okay... I didn't read ANY posts in this thread but the initial one...so I'm just gonna throw my 2 bits and leave it there

Any ADDITIONAL nerfs to the gauss rifle are ridonculous. The weapon is already incredibly hampered with charge time, and exploding if you look at it funny.

ALTERNATIVE nerfs however, in place of the charging mechanism, I would support. And there is lore to back up one idea that I like...

According to the 2nd book in the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy (Blood Legacy?) Natasha Kerensky is explaining the operation of Gauss Rifles to Phelan Wolf(Kell) It is explained that Gauss rifles require such stupendous ammounts of power, that no other high energy weapon can be fired simultaneously. Lasers, PPCs, and especially other gauss rifles cannot be fired at the same time as a Gauss. (Presumably mechanical weapon systems like ACs and Missiles should be okay)

In Phelan's trial of position, he faces Vlad who is piloting an Executioner (IIRC) equipped with dual gauss. Vlad TRIES to fire both gauss rifles simultaneously, trying to kill Phelan, however the weapons don't worj that way, and the mech automatically shunts power to one, then the other. Leaving Vlad not entirely in control of his machine.

If we had this implemented, INSTEAD OF the gauss charge, I would be tickled pink. AND it would eliminate the dual gauss alpha, as well as the gauss+PPC frontload damage. I'd like to see the Gauss get a bit more HP in this trade, too, but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary.


As for the science behind it... The Gauss rifle is a coil gun. It uses electromagnets, not superconducting magnets. In theory, the coils SHOULD prkduce quite a bit of heat, but that's based on copper conductors. Gold, or other future materials could bypass this...

The main issue with gauss rifles is recoil. Every mention of Gauss rifles in the novels puts the velocity at 'hypersonic'. If we're generous, and say it takes a whole second for thr slug to accelerate from zero to hypersonic, there would bee 200 metric TONS of recoil force for a 100 kilogram slug.

If we had knockdowns in the game, including recoil would be another way to balance the weapon. Firing a gauss rifle while airborn would pretty much kill you, as your mech would fly backwards uncontrollably and smash to bits on the rocks. Though, this would also be true of getting HIT with a gauss while airborn. These rules would apply to autocannons as well, albeit to a lesser extent.

You really should have read the comments, the novel you use was already covered, it's a one off that's only used as a plot device, NO other times does Stackpole have that limitation on Gauss weapons on Mechs firing multiples of them, nor does the lore/canon/fluff or rules follow that 1 specific instance in that one specific novel. It's a Stackpole thing, he does it a lot, realizes he put a main character in a situation where death is the ONLY possible outcome and that can't happen, SO...PLOT DEVICE! Nice try though!

Next time, read the posts.

[Y E O N N E]

Kristov Kerensky, on 23 June 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

I imply a coilgun in BTech would be cool running because it should be in comparison to the other weapon systems in use.

No, you did more than that. Here's the relevant quote:

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Real coilguns right now aren't high heat systems, low energy systems, which is the beauty of coilguns, it's not the amount of power, it's the timing of the magnets that produces the velocity of the projectile. Railguns are power anchored, you need more power to get the projectile moving faster, so they ARE hot and they use a LOT of energy.

That, my friend, is flat misinformation.

You need large amounts of power to push the very massive projectile to reach Mach 7+ in the three or four meters of barrel length you have. That's going to be a very hot process, just as bad as a rail-gun before adding in the friction. Worse, you have to apply those large amounts of power in a precisely timed sequence with alternating field directions. That complexity is why we are further along in developing a weapons-grade railgun. Dealing with the friction is more economical than dealing with the fragility and intricacy of a Gauss in a military application.

PM for the rest since the rest is just BTech fluff.

Edit for spelling.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 23 June 2015 - 12:16 PM.

[M3A2]

ahhh MWO, one day will be a true rock'em sock'em robot game. btw when does mwo come out of beta?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 June 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

No, you did more than that. Here's the relevant quote:



That, my friend, is flat misinformation.

You need large amounts of power to push the very massive projectile to reach Mach 7+ in the three or four meters of barrel length you have. That's going to be a very hot process, just as bad as a rail-gun before adding in the friction. Worse, you have to apply those large amounts of power in a precisely timed sequence with alternating field directions. That complexity is why we are further along in developing a weapons-grade railgun. Dealing with the friction is more economical than dealing with the fragility and intricacy of a Gauss in a military application.

PM for the rest since the rest is just BTech fluff.

Edit for spelling.

It's not pushed, it's pulled, and the energy required is less than a railgun, the problem is the timing and getting capacitors that are energy efficient enough to be useful, which we currently don't quite have, but the superconductors working at room temp, once they've got them working for more than microseconds , will help with that issue. Home made coilguns aren't hot, home made railguns are, using the same projectile masses, one system is simply far more efficient than the other.

[Mechteric]

Easiest fix would be to allow only one Gauss to be charged up at a time.

But, they should also decrease the time it takes to charge it up so as to not make Gauss as bad in that area, and maybe even allow the charge to be held a bit longer after it is ready.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 23 June 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[Koniks]

Khobai, on 23 June 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Well the problem with it having 3x max range is that its range is completely our of whack with other long range weapons like LRMs.

First, range isn't LRMs' problem.

Second, TDR-5SS and BLR-1S do full damage out to 911m w/ ERLLS, quirk, and module. RVN-4X out to 945m. And the BLR-1S and RVN-4X also have beam duration quirks. That's an 18 alpha for the RVN and a 27-36 alpha for the other 2, depending on whether you want to pay the ghost heat penalty or not.

So to the extent there's an issue (there isn't) it's what I posted above. 3x range isn't even a factor on most maps.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2015 - 02:10 PM.