102 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

So, how do we replace the 3:1 mastery mechanic without breaking what's already in game and hurting PGI's revenue? That's the kicker. Find a mutually beneficial solution that doesn't invalidate work/investment that's already been done....

With my experience in RPGs, the MWO grind is miniscule. I would like to see PGI diversify income with cosmetics beyond cockpit items and "grind" avoidance (but not do away with those methods either).

A big part of the new player problem IMO is dealing with the twitch-shooting meta tryhards. I can see a new player feeling they can't compete against the L33Ts with a new and hard earned mech. Smurphy's is a good resource and though I don't want to promote meta-builds as I feel they are detrimental to the player in the long run, using them as inspiration for your own builds can be beneficial short term.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I would rather keep the 3 mech system and increase rewards back to the old level before the chop. Doing the three lets a player understand builds better. Its not the three mechs but the horrible grind to get there. If you new its many times worse after the cadet bonus is over.

[Alistair Winter]

The system made sense in 2013, when there was a grand total of 10 different mechs to play, and you needed all the variants to provide some level of variation for the players. Back in those days, every new mech completely changed the game. Remember the "How will the Highlander change the game" and "How will the Spider change the game" threads?

Today we have something like 200 variants, if I recall correctly. There's really no need to force new players to grind through 3 different variants of the same mech, when there's so much content available for them to explore.

Hell, I've been playing since 2012 and there's still plenty of mechs I haven't had a chance to try yet. I have 3 mechs of every weight class, and I don't generally want to buy any more mechs, because then I have to buy at least 3 variants of that chassis. I can't just buy one Zeus for 15 million C-bills (upgrades included), I have to buy three of them for 45 million C-bills. No thanks.

[C E Dwyer]

I'm looking at 8 million, and mech bays, filled with every mech except seven, and wondering what all the fuss is about.

[KodiakGW]

Sir Wulfrick, on 23 June 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Very obviously the early game experience is absolutely vital for player retention. This, I feel, needs quite a lot of work by PGI prior to them even thinking about releasing MWO on steam...

New player experience, above all, is important. Many ideas have been presented, but nothing so far has been addressed.

Xetelian, on 23 June 2015 - 12:55 AM, said:

Having to use 3 chassis to master the chassis is frustrating, especially when only 1 or 2 of the chassis is worth driving (in some cases none).

Can't say enough about this. There are a number of chassis I have not touched. Mainly due to the realization that to get the one good one (that fits my play style) past Basic, I would need to buy two others, upgrade them, and get them to Basic. Considering the "Carry Harder" work I need to do to get decent CBill returns for my time, I'm not going to waste them on mechs with crappy engines and no upgrades that I'll end up selling off for a significant loss.

I can see the need for three of one chassis type for each weight class at first. That is where Mastery Packs come in. But, after that, each individual mech in that weight class should be able to Elite.

BTW - Time to make/release a Thunderbolt hero so we can have a Mastery Pack for that. I'll bet PGI will see a significant increase in MC purchase by newer players if they offered it.

[Templar Dane]

Over the course of 10 months I've gotten at least 3000 free mc from the events.

[Tombstoner]

DarthRevis, on 23 June 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually you spending LESS money is bad for the game....if they dont make money the servers shut down. This is Free to play only because others pay your way. If you spend less on mechs and equipment you will spend less on MC. less on mech packs, less time in game and less money to cut down the grind and PGI will end up being the losers while we win but then they close the servers.

So what did ya get?

It pretty simple, i know everyone wants stuff for free but servers, internet, pass through cost and all the other cost to run a business is what you are paying for and if you stop the game stops....

So be careful what you wish for....

Triple mech prices and triple xp costs. you preserve the grind incentive to spend money on convenience. Its not well understood by new players that you need to master 3 mechs. The op's story is telling. this is not a situation thats good for the game. its likely to make people quit.

All thats being asked for is let us play the mechs we want and you can still have the inventive/grind.
What happens if PGI put up a pay wall. Server population crashes.... good luck with que times....

Free loaders provide value this is a fact.
Free loaders are undeserved customers....

[El Bandito]

DarthRevis, on 23 June 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

That sounds like more of a problem with you and not the mechs....

I can make all of my mechs viable...even had some 2 kill games last night in a Spider with 1er large and 4 mg's which is the worst of the bunch.

Anecdotal evidence wont support this case, you need to bring something worthwhile to the table if you are gonna comment on things like this.

Your Spider experience is anecdotal too. Besides, 5K is not the worst Spider, its the 5V--which is well known fact. Shows that you completely forgot about that miserable excuse of a mech variant.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 June 2015 - 06:07 PM.

[Kushko]

Cathy, on 23 June 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

I'm looking at 8 million, and mech bays, filled with every mech except seven, and wondering what all the fuss is about.

Maybe instead of looking at your millions, mech bays and mechs, you should actually read the posts and figure out what the fuss is about?

And in response to the "we need it so that people spend money" argument. Happy players that have fun and dont feel like they're forced in to pointless grinds are much more likely to feel like spending money on a game. And as i suggested i dont really want to remove the 3 for 1 mechanic, just move it away from the actual competitive advantages to economic and cosmetic bonuses. People should still want to get 3 variants of a chassis they enjoy playing, they just shouldnt feel forced in to doing so.

lordtzar, on 23 June 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Over the course of 10 months I've gotten at least 3000 free mc from the events.

How is that at all relevant to this discussion? I'm sure you skimmed over and figured it was just a "we want more free stuff" cry, but if you bothered to read some of the posts you would realize that is not the case at all.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Almond Brown]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 June 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

There is a difference tho between a reasonable amount of grinding and a simply ret*rded payouts and prices.

When you start from scratch it takes about 20-30m c-bills to build one IS mech into a competitive machine, ~40-50m c-bills to master one chassis.

stuff

There is also a difference between a reasonable amount of grinding and getting everything literally handed to you for SFA work (gameplay)

I can build a "Heavy Chassis" with a 250std engine, DHS and ES, with a decent weapons load and max armor for 10 million. End game stuff Like Modules and such are just that. Something to be worked for or paid for.

20-30 million? Really!

If you want "competitive" then either Play or Pay. Gimme Gimme is all we hear around here. No one actually wants to "play" they just want all the Toys, and now.

While I think it is a great bandwagon to ride, PGI has not changed it in 3+ years. Why do you think that is. It isn't becasue none of you folks hadn't asked yet...

I wonder if the makers of WoW will give me a "Max Level Character" on day 1, if I sign up to play that one? Hmmmm....

Edited by Almond Brown, 23 June 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm pretty sure the three mech system isn't going anywhere. It is too ingrained into the system to be changed now.

Maybe you could hope for a C-Bill earnings bump eventually to make the mechs a bit more affordable, but more likely than not there will always be a 3 chassis rule.

[Almond Brown]

lordtzar, on 23 June 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Over the course of 10 months I've gotten at least 3000 free mc from the events.

Just this past Event, PGI GAVE AWAY 23 Billion C-Bills and 3.9 Million MC. Plus a ton of other stuff. Where were all those folks who wanted and need more money, and stuff, and for FREE.

Oh Right! They would have to actually PLAY MWO to get that... Bad PGI for making them play to get stuff... bad PGI

Edited by Almond Brown, 23 June 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Almond Brown]

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 June 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the three mech system isn't going anywhere. It is too ingrained into the system to be changed now.

Maybe you could hope for a C-Bill earnings bump eventually to make the mechs a bit more affordable, but more likely than not there will always be a 3 chassis rule.

If I had to guess, the Cadet Bonus may get a Boost. That would be OK!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Almond Brown, on 23 June 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

If I had to guess, the Cadet Bonus may get a Boost. That would be OK!

I could see that.

I also could see a C-Bill earnings boost in general, but have everything else adjust upward in price to offset the earnings EXCEPT mech prices to effectively indirectly make them cheaper.

I think we have enough mechs in game available for C-Bills that collecting them all wouldn't be possible even with a lower C-Bill cost.

I also don't see it hurting real money revenue because I'm guessing most of their big mech income comes from exclusive early access mech packs at this point.

Lastly, I could see it actually boosting revenue a bit because getting more mechs easier means you have to put them somewhere hence an increase in mechbay sales. There will always be the player who will juggle things around with his 4 free mechbays, but mechbays are cheap enough that many pay that small amount to save their favorite mech (instead of selling it to free a mechbay slot).

That I could see FAR before they drop the 3 chassis rule (which they aren't going to).

[Sazabi Steppenwulfe]

Kushko, on 23 June 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

It is my opinion that even financially for PGI this mechanic hurts them more than it helps. I bet there are thousands of players that did not give the game a proper chance on the basis of this mechanic alone.

I have spent hundreds of € on this game and not a single one was because of the buy 3 mechanic. I would say i even play and pay less because of it. Over the past 2 years i have tried to bring 9 of my friends in to this game and i doubt it would shock anyone if i say that not a single one of them stuck with it and 8 out of 9 left it because of the buy 3 to master 1 mechanic (the 9th one just didnt like the gameplay all that much and didnt even get to the point of disliking the mechanic).

How many of your friends did not stick with the game with the mentioned mechanic taking the lions share of the blame for it? I would love to hear other players experience.

definitely. the current model can't be working like they would hope. they should also take a look at regular pricing Vs sale weekend and set new prices accordingly

[Kristov Kerensky]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

I can master a tank in Warthunder in one evening. You can master all of the tier 1 tanks in a single day. It would take me weeks to grind out, equip, and master a single IS heavy.

Takes me 18 hours to get Basicx3, Elitex3 and Masterx3 in any new chassis. And yes, I actually do get 3 of each Mech up to Master, cause you never know what will happen later that will suddenly make my favorite of the 3 useless and another one useful. It's also a holdover from CB when we had to get Elites in 3 variants of a Mech to even open Master. That's the actual LONGEST total time spent for me to get Masterx3 of all the Mechs I have Mastered, which is most of them in the game currently, and that was without using premium time, which can cut that time down to 12 hours total.

True, I'm not a scrub and I know what I'm doing to maximize my xp and cbill returns, but the fact remains that it doesn't take a long time to get Master in a Mech with the current system. It takes me longer to get a SINGLE character to cap in any other game I play, and those are games with PvE content I can farm or be power leveled through. PvP style games like the BF series or Planetside, it's a hell of a lot longer with a hell of a lot more grind.

Some of you really don't play other online games with levels, that's REAL obvious to those of us who do, because MWO has one of the quickest to cap systems and least amount of grind out there.

Kushko, on 23 June 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

Maybe instead of looking at your millions, mech bays and mechs, you should actually read the posts and figure out what the fuss is about?

And in response to the "we need it so that people spend money" argument. Happy players that have fun and dont feel like they're forced in to pointless grinds are much more likely to feel like spending money on a game. And as i suggested i dont really want to remove the 3 for 1 mechanic, just move it away from the actual competitive advantages to economic and cosmetic bonuses. People should still want to get 3 variants of a chassis they enjoy playing, they just shouldnt feel forced in to doing so.




How is that at all relevant to this discussion? I'm sure you skimmed over and figured it was just a "we want more free stuff" cry, but if you bothered to read some of the posts you would realize that is not the case at all.

You should look up how F2P game systems work, because you have SO got it assbackwards.

Happy players who have no issues with the 'grind' or how long it takes to get levels or good gear, they do NOT spend money, there's no perceived 'need' to do so, so they don't.

It's the people who feel the grind is just TOO much that spend money, because they can buy Premium time to make more cbills/xp, they can buy Mastery Packs to get multiple Mechs and Bays for those Mechs and get Premium time to make the grind even less!

That's actually how F2P games do well, they make the customer feel that it's worth a few bucks to get further in the game faster, and you do that by making it feel like the grind is too much, it's annoying, but some cash will make it easier.

Again, MWO has the least grind compared to other F2P and even subscription based games, MMOs and PvP only. The people who keep telling us it's horrible and it's the worst out there have obviously not played other games online. I can't even be powerleveled in WoW to cap as quickly as I can get 3 variants of a brand new Mech through Basics, Elites and Master for ALL 3, and I know how to powerlevel like a boss in WoW, been doing it for way too many years(ain't spent a dime on MWO compared to what I've spent on WoW over the past decade!).

[Kushko]

Almond Brown, on 23 June 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

I wonder if the makers of WoW will give me a "Max Level Character" on day 1, if I sign up to play that one? Hmmmm....

Funny you should mention that, because they are actually doing it.

[PowerKill Necron]

The problem always boils down to PGI making money, and the fact that PGI can ONLY make money selling mechs is telling. It says that the game outside of the matches is VERY thin. The is almost no progression or customization outside of camo packs. There is no ability to specialize in a given weapon system or chassis. The game needs more stuff to sell outside of buying mechs. Or if not, it needs more gameplay options to keep players coming back.

Frankly the 3 mechs to master will KILL this game flat if it ever hits Steam. People there will NOT accept paywalls or Pay to win mechanics in their games. Just look at the reviews for The Hunter... a free to play game the requires you to buy a membership in order to hunt anything more than one species of deer. The game itself is a lot of fun, but the reviews have destroyed any chance it had because of the paywall most of the content is locked behind. This game will fair no better.

Edited by PKNecron, 23 June 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Lugh]

Kyocera, on 23 June 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

The only problem I have with the current system is the lack of mechbays by default. Sure you can win a few more in Community Borefare but it really doesn't help free players who want to progress several mechs that much really. Mastering mechs is an essential part of this game and sadly it's the one major thing that's paywalled.

I do kind of support the 3 mech mastery system though because it at least has some kind of progression within this crappy arena game we have. The only issue is that it almost completely blocks out f2p players because of the mechbay issue.

Relaxing the 3 mech rule makes things a bit too quick and easy. I even think the XP > GXP conversion is fair because it is a money generator. Pay to win quicker is fine and I admit I've bought MC just to convert XP to master up mechs. At the end of the day you still have to balance things with an income that PGI can generate.

Perhaps the answer is to provide some more mech bays through regular competitions/events (which you're doing really good at PGI, don't listen to the haters).

Maybe mech mastery can be simplified on a per chassis basis instead of needing 3 mechs, but with higher XP requirements.

It's definitely an area that could use a bit of work. I have enough spare mech bays so that I never have to worry about it yet I understand the pain of those who don't.

Which again is supposed to encourage people to at least buy Mech bays...these guys can't keep the lights on if you aren't spending money.

And sure upping the XP needed to master a single mech as a standalone sounds appealing to you now. But when it takes 1million experience to do it, you are simply going to cry again that it's unfair.

They are in the business of making money. You obviously don't intend to let them make money with your time here.

They should not be spending effort to keep you. They may wish to find better ways to get you to spend money.
But that's it. You can't compete without spending a smallish amount of money for mechbays?' too bad.

[Revis Volek]

El Bandito, on 23 June 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Your Spider experience is anecdotal too. Besides, 5K is not the worst Spider, its the 5V--which is well known fact. Shows that you had completely forgot about that miserable excuse of a mech variant.

I'm well aware my experience is anecdotal...which is why I posted it. It the exact opposite of his and shows that two people can have two very different experience there fore it should be dismissed for the most part (outside a FUN factor which is why we are here, if its fun who cares how bad or non meta it is....Urban Mech anyone?).

The 5V IMO is better since MG's got neutered....it has 2 laser hard points does it not? And i did not forget about it, my opion is different then yours on those chassis is what it looks like.