174 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Solahma, on 25 June 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

I undestand what you are suggesting, but if you knew the area, like many others in the game, there was no where to run. There was no cover to hide behind. Sure, I could have ran straight at the guy and past him, but target lock doesn't instantly break as long as he is facing me, and he could have easily both torso twisted and turned to pursue. SCR isn't a slot mech. He was at the peek of the hill at that point and could see down both sides. My choice to run back the way I came was based on the risk of there being several other mechs with the SCR that are slightly slower. I couldn't see over the hill and had no idea of knowing. Split second decisions, but as soon as I saw a SCR, I immediately assumed the worst: Streaks, and also recognized my surrounding and new I was 100% screwed. I knew that if there were more mechs past him, I was still screwed. I knew there was no time for me to run past him, down the next piece of open terrain that he could already see down. In that split moment, I knew my best chance was to use the small distance already between me and him to turn and hopefully get out of range. I could not.

Without knowing exactly the situation you describe (or even which map you where on? There's been a lot of posts!):

Yes, you can run into situations where, through no real fault of yours, you are screwed. Someone has a rock to your scissors, and you're just screwed. If you're piloting a locust, that's a VERY real problem for you, and that's not a factor of weapon balance. The SSRM6 launcher is a severe threat, but it's a very limited one.

If you'd run in the open as you said, with nowhere to go to get out of LOS for roughly 10 seconds, and that mech had dual gauss, or was a quirked PPC mech, or any similar high PPFLD setup... In a locust, you're quite likely to get crushed in short order.

Unless, of course, hit registration is misbehaving, in which case the light pilot can dance around with impunity. While it almost never happens to me (i have no problem one-shotting lights in my assaults) I've seen a LOT of videos which are not even questionable, where the hit registration of lasers and such is simply broken. Pariah Devalis, for example, recently posted a video recorded at 120fps, slowed to 30fps, where he's in an Executioner firing at a Firestarter, CLEARLY, inarguably hitting and not doing appropriate damage. This leads to pilots who get rather grouchy about lights that they can hit taking no damage... so those pilots are much less sympathetic when said lights get splatted (particularly when the splatting is still fundamentally fair).

After all, every pilot, in every weight class, has rounded a corner into a situation where they will die no matter what they do. It's not like that's a light-only problem.

Edited by Wintersdark, 25 June 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Escef, on 25 June 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

2 out of 3 is "rare" where you come from?

Seriously, try it yourself if you don't believe me.

statisticly speaking...

A sample size of 3 is very very very poor.

Most would recommend a bare minimal of 30.
most self conducted statistical research would occur at a sample size of 100 while more large scale ones are 1000.

a sample size of 3 can say "yes, this happens 100% of the time" as likely as "this would literally never happen in game, saying bla bla is like saying the HAG 40 on the Sunder is TO OP"

[Elizander]

Why would you be afraid of Streak 6? Even my HBK-4SP can outgun a streakcrow and if you're a light mech well you see all those 6 tube missile racks before you close in, right?

[PhoenixFire55]

SoggyGorilla, on 24 June 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

what does the inner sphere have that can counter 6x6 streak mad dog? or 5x6 streak crow?

Ahem ... my dual gauss Jager will counter your streak whatever any day. Steaks are so easy to counter its not even funny. Anything 40t+ outright kills them by itself, anything under 40t can just run away.

[Escef]

Nightshade24, on 25 June 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

statisticly speaking...

A sample size of 3 is very very very poor.

Most would recommend a bare minimal of 30.
most self conducted statistical research would occur at a sample size of 100 while more large scale ones are 1000.

a sample size of 3 can say "yes, this happens 100% of the time" as likely as "this would literally never happen in game, saying bla bla is like saying the HAG 40 on the Sunder is TO OP"

Well, it goes up to 3 out of 4 if we include Scout Derek's video. By all means, collect some more data if you like.



And mind you, Scout was trying to prove me wrong. He kinda shocked himself.

Edited by Escef, 26 June 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Lugh]

Pilot better. Against good light pilots my streak crow has major problems. Against, average and terrible pilots it wrecks face.

[Lugh]

Escef, on 26 June 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

Well, it goes up to 3 out of 4 if we include Scout Derek's video. By all means, collect some more data if you like.



And mind you, Scout was trying to prove me wrong. He kinda shocked himself.

So wait 6 streak 4s (that's 48 damage a volley for the math challenged(which means 148 damage)) Took three full volleys to kill a stationary STOCK (that's not full armor for the ID10Ts amongst you) jenner. And you are WHINING it is OP?

Please stop playing, you are terrible.

I can do it in 2 volleys with a yaeger and AC20s ONE if I get perfect hits on both legs

Edited by Lugh, 26 June 2015 - 04:32 AM.

[Roadkill]

Solahma, on 25 June 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

I can respect that opinion. I see it's bias in your belief that most light pilots are taking advantage, intentionally, of bad hit registration...

It doesn't have to be intentional. It just is. Lights take advantage of poor hit registration whether they intend to do it or not. Fix that and then I'll entertain thoughts of adjusting weapons that are really only useful for killing lights.

But as long as we have hit reg and hitbox problems with lights, we need something to help keep them in check. Streakcrows are nearly perfectly suited for that task because they're not really any good at anything else. Which makes them rare... but just common enough that Light pilots have to consider that one might be over any given ridge.

TT really isn't a good example, because in TT a Light can be taken out in one volley by any number of combinations of weapons. Lights are far more survivable in MWO than they are in TT. But they have to be, because MWO doesn't have a battle value system and Lights take up 1/12 of the team just like any other Mech.

[InspectorG]

Wintersdark, on 25 June 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

After all, every pilot, in every weight class, has rounded a corner into a situation where they will die no matter what they do. It's not like that's a light-only problem.

The difference is the Light pilot accepts that challenge, and the Locust pilot gets off on it.

"Will this corner be my last???...."

[InspectorG]

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

But as long as we have hit reg and hitbox problems with lights, we need something to help keep them in check. Streakcrows are nearly perfectly suited for that task because they're not really any good at anything else. Which makes them rare... but just common enough that Light pilots have to consider that one might be over any given ridge.

Which is, not by design im sure, one of the best examples of Role Warfare we have...

I remember an old TT match, 100 ton limit. That one generic city map.

My friend picked his Atlas, i took 5 Locust.

He was sooooo pissed, haha. Nibbled that poor Atlas apart, not a single Locust lost. I was hot on all the pilot rolls.

[Wintersdark]

InspectorG, on 26 June 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

The difference is the Light pilot accepts that challenge, and the Locust pilot gets off on it.

"Will this corner be my last???...."

Yeah, but lolcust pilots are a special kind of crazy.

[InspectorG]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 June 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

Ahem ... my dual gauss Jager will counter your streak whatever any day. Steaks are so easy to counter its not even funny. Anything 40t+ outright kills them by itself, anything under 40t can just run away.

Yeah, best use if for covering ally assaults. Or knife fighting.

I faced one the other day in my Locust, almost pissed myself but was then like 'duh, im safe at 300m, ill just leg him'. Once a teammate started firing on him he ignored me and it cost him a leg...teammate got the kill.

[Dawnstealer]

Fresh Locust against a Streakcow takes a whopping one volley before that Locust is swiss cheese.

[Escef]

Lugh, on 26 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

So wait 6 streak 4s (that's 48 damage a volley for the math challenged(which means 148 damage)) Took three full volleys to kill a stationary STOCK (that's not full armor for the ID10Ts amongst you) jenner. And you are WHINING it is OP?

It's worse. It's 6 Sreak6, those are 72 damage per volley.

Also, not sure if your phrasing is bad or if you are misunderstanding things, but I'm on the side of this stuff NOT being over powered.

[QuantumButler]

Solahma, on 25 June 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

lol, but really, a LCT getting hit anywhere dies. 72 points of SSRM6 damage is more than half it's entire armor value.

Honestly though, lights stand no chance against a SSRM6 boat. 1 alpha has a good chance of instantly killing any IS light mech. 2 shots typically kills any light mech. It has ridiculous range. Any streakboat just needs to take cAP to negate ECM.
It's too powerful against lights. period.
How do you fix this vs. lights only? Several options:
- Make streaks launch staggered, like clan LRMS
- Increase the spread dramatically for targets moving above 100kph
- Reduce the turning speed of SSRMs so a fast moving light mech can out-maneuver them
- Increase the spread vs. lights alone
- Program SSRMs to miss with a certain amount of missiles depending on the target's speed (similar to already mentioned). Would be a simple formula based on target's KPH.

Even though you don't see Streaks a lot, they are still THEE most effective light killer in the game. Nothing prior to clans was this effective at killing lights. It's guaranteed damage once the trigger is pulled. Terrain matters little when a light can't find cover in time after the first alpha. Also, the light can get caught off-guard turning a corner or being pre-locked from a spotter or UAV. Prior to clans, we had IS SSRM2 light hunters. A dedicated role for the most part. It was effective, but it didn't "LOL insta-killed!" light mechs (or at least instantly crit their leg,side torso, center torso, something critical in one hit.
The reason you don't see a ton of streak boats all the time is because there are very few light mechs out there to be super-uber effective against (oh gee, I wonder what turned them off!?....). So Streak boat players realized they don't have as many victims and Streaks are a lot less effective against larger mechs, the larger they are, the less effective it is.
It should be tweeked to be worse against lights, but remain the same current effectiveness against mediums, heavies, and assaults.
The best way to do that, IMO, is to add in a miss chance based on KPH. Just for example: mechs moving below 110 KPH have no SSRM misses. Every 1 KPH past 110 gives the mech a 1% miss rate. A mech moving 150 KPH automatically makes 40% of missiles miss target. Something like that, and balance the rate accordingly. This way, when a LCT is targeted by a 6x SSRM6 MDD which is 36 missiles or 72 damage, it will be hit by 21 missiles for 42 damage.

Just a thought. There is no weapon in the game that is more effective against lights than clan SSRM4s and SSRM6s. Sure, other weapons like dual Gauss can still be brutal against a light, but those weapons require aiming and the light's survival is hugely impacted by his ability to maneuver. All I would like to see is a similar defense added against SSRMs.

Or another option.

Let lights die in 1 or two hits like they bloody well should instead of being able to lag tank damage that'd put 100 ton mechs in the scrap heap.

Newsflash: this is how fast your crappy light is SUPPOSED to die, to anything, the atrocious netcode just means 80% of damage goes into the void against fast movers.