523 replies to this topic

[cSand]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 June 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

If your Elo is high enough, then you'll be facing 12 mans more often, simple as that. If your Elo is low, you will rarely, if ever, see 12 mans. Simple as that, due to the fact that there's simply very few 12 mans dropping, MM is doing what it can with a limited resource pool, nothing more, nothing less.

Want to bring a friend into the game and drop with them in the group que, create a new account so you have a newb Elo like he does, that'll keep you away from the higher Elo groups, easy as that.

Hmm

I'm not so sure about that. My little group gets put up against guys I know are in the upper tiers all the time. But we still rarely see 12 mans except during the CW ceasefire. Maybe cause we're the low ELO filler in the slam sandwich, lol!

We see a decent amount of 8-10 mans though on an average night but not so many that it's ridiculous.

[C E Dwyer]

its not 12mans fault or even dropping 12 a side that is the problem.

Once again its all down to the cry baby community that has caused this.

Its not fair we don't like facing grouped organised people.

We only want to face other people that are selfish anti social, and only want to play our way..

So those small groups of two or three get stuck in to competitive groups play regardless of there being 4 7 11 or 12..

I feel very sorry for P.G.I

But really if company sized matches stop happening I shall withdraw my wallet from the game, the main reason I stopped supporting MEchwarrior tactics wasn't the sorry art work, or the weak production, it was the fact it was never going to grow past lance size battles.

the matches in a progressive game should be getting bigger not smaller

[Wintersdark]

Lazor Sharp, on 26 June 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ok, had this thought last night, if 9-12 man groups are only 2% or so of the drops in group que, than how is it that the 2-3 man groups getting rolled by 12 man groups create all bitching the we hear so much about on the forums.... it seams that the smaller groups are dropping against small to medium size groups most often, and are still getting roll stomped, so i cant see the 9 to 12 man premade's being a problem........

Where's RoadBeer and SandPit when you need them.....LOL.........

Because:

The group queue has a low population relative to the solo queue. Very low.

The solo queue has a population that's sufficient for the MM to function reasonably well most of the time for most of the players. . Note the "Most" 's in that sentence - the solo queue doesn't have enough players to work well for everyone all the time, period.

The group queue is a lot smaller, and it's matching requirements are a lot higher (groups vastly limit options for the matchmaker) excluding more potentials from each match.

So, let's say for the purposes of this post and because there are so many sets of numbers floating around, that Russ said 7% of groups are =>5, and thus 93% are groups of 4 or less.

You are in a 4 man group, and there is a 9 man group in the queue at the same time as you.

You are queueing for matches at roughly the same time as the 9 man group.

Because you CANOT be matched on the same side as the 9man, you are highly probably going to be matched AGAINST that 9 man in most of the drops you take.

Why? Overall queue numbers are low, and with the group queue having a fairly low population there's few groups searching at any given moment.

That 9 man group is going to eat up probably 4-5 other groups in every match. One 3 man alongside them, then some combination of 12 players for the opposing team. It's likely there isn't another large group queueing at the same moment, or maybe only 1-2 - which you get depends heavily on who's been in the queue longest, weight classes and tonnage.

But ultimately, even with only 7% of groups being larger, you're still eating a lot of small groups in every match.

This means it's entirely possible that of the players in the queue right now, there may only be one large group, and enough small groups to make two matches at any given time. Because you all get matches at the same time, launch again at the same time, it's highly probable that you run into that 9 man group in 50 percent or more of your matches.

[Weeny Machine]

Cathy, on 26 June 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

its not 12mans fault or even dropping 12 a side that is the problem.

Once again its all down to the cry baby community that has caused this.

Its not fair we don't like facing grouped organised people.

We only want to face other people that are selfish anti social, and only want to play our way..

So those small groups of two or three get stuck in to competitive groups play regardless of there being 4 7 11 or 12..

I feel very sorry for P.G.I

But really if company sized matches stop happening I shall withdraw my wallet from the game, the main reason I stopped supporting MEchwarrior tactics wasn't the sorry art work, or the weak production, it was the fact it was never going to grow past lance size battles.

the matches in a progressive game should be getting bigger not smaller

You know, there are many factors why someone doesn't want to play CW. Hardly any of my friends play it - simply because it is no fun to them. There are other reasons as well: like we have fathers and mothers which often have to make breaks or even quit while playing now and then. They do not want to be a burden. And there are many more good reasons.
And in case of my friends: all of them are on more or less via Skype and we talk etc while we game.

Then I read your post and think: why would any of these good folk even want to join a unit when they read pathetic rants like yours. This attitude is disgusting on so many levels for aforementioned reasons yet on the other hand life is really sarcastic. Why? Look it up that usually the "Casuals" are the majority of gamers. Seeing how dead CW is and how active (well, compared to CW) the single queue is means that ACTUALLY you want the majority to play like you want.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 June 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[cSand]

Cathy, on 26 June 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

its not 12mans fault or even dropping 12 a side that is the problem.

Once again its all down to the cry baby community that has caused this.

Its not fair we don't like facing grouped organised people.

We only want to face other people that are selfish anti social, and only want to play our way..

So those small groups of two or three get stuck in to competitive groups play regardless of there being 4 7 11 or 12..

I feel very sorry for P.G.I

But really if company sized matches stop happening I shall withdraw my wallet from the game, the main reason I stopped supporting MEchwarrior tactics wasn't the sorry art work, or the weak production, it was the fact it was never going to grow past lance size battles.

the matches in a progressive game should be getting bigger not smaller

It's funny that you say that


Because often times we (my 3-4 man and whoever else is on our side) can defeat 8-12 man groups, but the decider is that all our motley groups are communicating with each other and working together.


Other times you get matches vs 8 - 12 man groups, and somebody will try to organize the team, give a few orders, and nobody is interested in even responding
Then at the end after its 0-12, all you hear is "f**king 12 mans" or "sh*tty team FTL"


wierd, eh?

Edited by cSand, 26 June 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

cSand, on 26 June 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Hmm

I'm not so sure about that. My little group gets put up against guys I know are in the upper tiers all the time. But we still rarely see 12 mans except during the CW ceasefire. Maybe cause we're the low ELO filler in the slam sandwich, lol!

We see a decent amount of 8-10 mans though on an average night but not so many that it's ridiculous.

You are a bit modest my friend, your Elo is higher than you make out, we've dropped together in the solo que more than a few times, and I know how many 228 and others I see on a constant basis, so you are definitely up there enough to face the better players. So you'll be facing them in the group que even more because the group que has such a limited pool to deal from. Makes me want to do more group que drops so I can face my betters more often

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bush Hopper, on 26 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

You know, there are many factors why someone doesn't want to play CW. Hardly any of my friends play it - simply because it is no fun to them. There are other reasons as well: like we have fathers and mothers which often have to make breaks or even quit while playing now and then. They do not want to be a burden. And there are many more good reasons.
And in case of my friends: all of them are on more or less via Skype and we talk etc while we game.

Then I read your post and think: why would any of these good folk even want to join a unit when they read pathetic rants like yours. This attitude is disgusting on so many levels for aforementioned reasons yet on the other hand life is really sarcastic. Why? Look it up that usually the "Casuals" are the majority of gamers. Seeing how dead CW is and how active (well, compared to CW) the single queue is means that ACTUALLY you want the majority to play like you want.

Cathy is correct however, the solo only players ARE antisocial usually, and when they do decide to drop in the group que, they do NOT want to face other groups, they want to face solo players while THEY are a group. Look around the forums, it's a very common complaint from people playing 2 to 4 man groups, they do NOT want to face groups at all, they want to be put in the solo ques. The large units want to face large units, NOT small groups, and definitely not solo players.

This is a TEAM game, from the ground up it designed for and oriented towards team play, and yet the majority of the playerbase refuses to play as a team and gets all whiney about anything team oriented, and that's a damn shame.

[cSand]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

You are a bit modest my friend, your Elo is higher than you make out, we've dropped together in the solo que more than a few times, and I know how many 228 and others I see on a constant basis, so you are definitely up there enough to face the better players. So you'll be facing them in the group que even more because the group que has such a limited pool to deal from. Makes me want to do more group que drops so I can face my betters more often

aw shucks


well you're welcome to come join us in the group queue any time mon amis!

[Weeny Machine]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 June 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Cathy is correct however, the solo only players ARE antisocial usually, and when they do decide to drop in the group que, they do NOT want to face other groups, they want to face solo players while THEY are a group. Look around the forums, it's a very common complaint from people playing 2 to 4 man groups, they do NOT want to face groups at all, they want to be put in the solo ques. The large units want to face large units, NOT small groups, and definitely not solo players.

This is a TEAM game, from the ground up it designed for and oriented towards team play, and yet the majority of the playerbase refuses to play as a team and gets all whiney about anything team oriented, and that's a damn shame.

Ok, if she is refering only to CW single players, I agree with her to some degree. However, I was mainly refering to the solo mode.

Nevertheless what would CW do without those puggers? I think we all know the answer

[Koniks]

cSand, on 26 June 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Hmm

I'm not so sure about that. My little group gets put up against guys I know are in the upper tiers all the time. But we still rarely see 12 mans except during the CW ceasefire. Maybe cause we're the low ELO filler in the slam sandwich, lol!

We see a decent amount of 8-10 mans though on an average night but not so many that it's ridiculous.

I think that's because there aren't very many 12-mans in group queue. Didn't Russ say something like 6% of drops?

I see them more frequently in CW but still nothing close to a plurality of drops.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bush Hopper, on 26 June 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Ok, if she is refering only to CW single players, I agree with her to some degree. However, I was mainly refering to the solo mode.

Nevertheless what would CW do without those puggers? I think we all know the answer

I'm referring to the general population who are mainly solo players, I believe Cathy is as well, and that covers the solo que, group que and occasionally the CW que, but the CW que solo player are typically looking FOR real group play and teamwork.
Solo and group que casuals are often not looking for group play and teamwork, they are playing a 1v12 game with 11 people who tend to get in their way. They will get with a friend or some random folks and drop in the group que and play with the exact same attitude, 1v12 with 11 people who tend to get in their way. And then they complain about facing groups and getting stomped because the other team was a 12 man despite it rarely being a 12 man for the average player.

I have friends in MWO who are exactly this type of player, and I've pretty much stopped dropping in group que with them for that reason. I get tired of them complaining that the 12 players we just faced who had Clan tags and IS tags and various unit tags were a 12 man and it wasn't fair. Fact is, my friends ran off solo and died because they were playing 1v12 in a group specific enviroment, yelling at each other, me and the rest of the team the entire time because we didn't support them, even though EACH of them ran off in a different direction and ignored each other. I've gone off on a few of them after getting fed up with that bs, I've known them for years before MWO was announced in other games where they did the exact same thing, but in those games, it didn't matter usually, and when it did, they'd stop the stupidity and play as a team. Some of them got their act together, we have fun in the group que despite it being 3 or 4 of us. Others I simply ignore when they send the requests for group now, they won't stop being idiots and I have a very low idiot tolerance level.

This is a TEAM game, and the majority of the playerbase don't play as a team, and they whine if they DO get in the group que and face people who play as a team, not even a 12 man, just plain TEAM WORK in the game mode designated for players wanting team work. That's bs, pure and simple.

[Mystere]

Lazor Sharp, on 26 June 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ok, had this thought last night, if 9-12 man groups are only 2% or so of the drops in group que, than how is it that the 2-3 man groups getting rolled by 12 man groups create all bitching the we hear so much about on the forums.... it seams that the smaller groups are dropping against small to medium size groups most often, and are still getting roll stomped, so i cant see the 9 to 12 man premade's being a problem........

Because the real reason behind the whining of many is:

PGI, I cannot win all the time! Please make it easier for me!

Edited by Mystere, 26 June 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Cathy, on 26 June 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

its not 12mans fault or even dropping 12 a side that is the problem.
Once again its all down to the cry baby community that has caused this.

If you're going to take that approach, I think you should be condemning all gamers in general, not just the established MWO community. It's not like new people who are trying out MWO for the first time are generally mentally tougher, more well-adjusted people who handle adversity much better than the weak MWO community. New players seem to hate losing just as much as veteran players.

Am I wrong?

[Lazor Sharp]

While i understand the many many reasons ppl want to play in the solo que (has been stated in many threads by many ppl) and i play solo if there is no one around in my unit, or if i am trying out a new build, etc... i play with my unit the vast majority of the time

So I still have a hard time understanding why they refuse to play a TEAM orientated game in a group/unit, and trying to play as a TEAM vs solo rambo... this is NOT CoD etc......

This is a:
TEAM Game!!!!!!!!!!!
a firkin TEAM Based Game!!!!!!!!!!! ppl, find a unit.....!!!!!!!

and at least for me, TEAM play is vastly more fun, than solo, rambo, CoD, BS......

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 26 June 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

If you're going to take that approach, I think you should be condemning all gamers in general, not just the established MWO community. It's not like new people who are trying out MWO for the first time are generally mentally tougher, more well-adjusted people who handle adversity much better than the weak MWO community. New players seem to hate losing just as much as veteran players.

Am I wrong?

Part of it might be that the Mechwarrior community includes a lot of military vets and other people who crave "real war," so they have much different psychologies than the average Joe Puggie...

[Big Tin Man]

Here's something to help people understand if they actually got wrecked by a 12 man:

SHOW WHO IS ACTUALLY GROUPED TOGETHER ON THE MATCHMAKER SCREEN. ON BOTH SIDES

It's easy to say that the 12 man boogyman wrecked them, but the group of two may not understand that they had a 10 man on their side to fight back (but failed). They may just see that everyone is the same faction on the other side, but that doesn't mean they're actually together. Do this first, and see if people still scream and cry.

Second, please get a good command wheel function. VOIP is nice, when people have it turned on, and you can actually understand what they are saying.

Third: increase the Elo variable for group, as a function of group size.

THEN if everything is still busted, reduce max group size to 8. Further, implement 1/1/1/1 on groups of 4 or less, and 2/2/2/2 on groups of 5-8. A big part of the problem is still straight up tonnage imbalance, if you run up against two 6 mans running nothing but TBR's and DWF's. And 8 is a much better max number, as you can still play with a decent size group of your friends if you have to break up a 12 man, and compared to a 4 man max, you're not stuck with splitting a 5 man into a 2 and a 3 group (which REALLY REALLY SUCKED for small units). Heck, a 6 man max might be ok and would probably be easier for MM, but 2 full lances makes some sense and then you can use 2/2/2/2 effectively.

Further, according to Russ's stats, there aren't that many 12 mans out there running pug queue as a percentage of all matches. It may just be a small group of very vocal folks.

[Kristov Kerensky]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Part of it might be that the Mechwarrior community includes a lot of military vets and other people who crave "real war," so they have much different psychologies than the average Joe Puggie...

Actually I think it's because of that AND that most of us are older adults and we were simply brought up with a different set of expectations when it comes to competition, we were taught it isn't whether you win or lose, it's whether or not you won and that 2nd place is just the first loser.

We didn't get prizes for playing, we got prizes for winning and got chewed out and made to work even harder when we lost in sports. Or games or anything where there was any competitive drive at all, be it grades in school or playing kick the can, losing sucks.

Millennials were given prizes for just showing up for christ's sake, so they expect to win even when they lose, and that really shows in video games, as they are always the ones screaming about unfair and cheating and all that crap when reality is, they simply suck and refuse to do anything to get better.

[Burktross]

I am the pug underhive, and I disagree with this message.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Burktross, on 26 June 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

I am the pug underhive, and I disagree with this message.

PUG underhive my rear torso armor! You may hide out there but you sure as hell ain't no solo player Burktoss, you are an excellent teammate.

[orcrist86]

Let me pour kerosene on this fire. Move groups of 2-4 into puglandia, and let 5-12 turn to cannibals in their own queue.

Not saying we should, but it might work.