70 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 June 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Awesome can't fire all 3 PPCs without getting into heat issues, volley fire was used to keep up sustained fire.

Point of fact:

AWS-8Q
3x PPC (30 heat)
28 SHS
Up to extra heat per turn from running.

Max heat per turn: 32
Max Heat Dissipation: 28

So if running the AWS-8Q generated 4 pts excess heat for every alpha strike, 3 if done whilst walking, and a mere 2 if stationary.

Standard play was to fire in volleys of 3/3/2-3/3/2-3/3/2
At worst, it generated 8 excess heat before you dropped down to 2 PPCs and not moving, and bam all heat build up gone.

If stationary, one could volley 3/3/3/3/2-3/3/3/3/2, ad infinitum. Yes, that's 4 volleys of 3 PPC, with a "cooldown" volley of 2...and return to ZERO heat burden.

And in all those case, that is with MINIMAL heat build up. Yes, 1 could add 1 pt heat with the small laser, but with a 90 meter range, and PPCs having a 90 meter minimum range, hence, not a lot of overlap.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 28 June 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

Wat...

WAT...

WAT.

Bro. Brah, Bruh, Brudda. Brother. Broski. Broseph. The AWS-8Q was an EXTREMELY cool running mech in TT. An alpha generates 30 heat, and it's 28 SHS drop it down to 2. Then it can alpha again, and sit at 4 heat. And then again and sit 6 heat. Then again at 8 heat. And then you just fire two of those PPCs and be back at zero heat.

If it was standing in water, it could alpha every turn until it someone killed it.

But even if PGI did lift the ghost heat on the Awesome to 3, no one would ever play it because it's THAT bad.

Ninja'd.

And I still play it...because.....reasons.

[FupDup]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 28 June 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

Wat...

WAT...

WAT.

Bro. Brah, Bruh, Brudda. Brother. Broski. Broseph. The AWS-8Q was an EXTREMELY cool running mech in TT. An alpha generates 30 heat, and it's 28 SHS drop it down to 2. Then it can alpha again, and sit at 4 heat. And then again and sit 6 heat. Then again at 8 heat. And then you just fire two of those PPCs and be back at zero heat.

If it was standing in water, it could alpha every turn until it someone killed it.

But even if PGI did lift the ghost heat on the Awesome to 3, no one would ever play it because it's THAT bad.

And if people think that's crazy, the Hellstar showed up later and took it up a notch.

http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/1481.pdf

Its full volley of 4 Clan ERPPCs created 60 heat. It carried 30 DHS, which allowed it to dissipate 60 heat per turn... This made it 100% heatless if standing still. Even if moving, it only generated 62 total heat, which meant 2 points of net heat. That means that while standing immobile, it could fire everything it had, FOREVER, until it got damaged. If running, it could still fire for 2 turns without any penalty, and could go a bit over that because the first MP penalty isn't even that bad anyways.

So we've got a loadout with the firepower and range of quadruple Gauss Rifles, without the ammo or explosion issues, along with being just as heatless, having the armor of an Atlas, and the mobility of a typical heavy mech. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW, HUH? WHERE IS HE??!!

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

And I still play it...because.....reasons.

It's my special snowflake left over from TT.

I wish solo and group had separate Elo rankings, so when I'm in solo I can frolic about in my stock+ AWS-8Q without fear of MM ******* me from piloting a Gigispike Whale in group queue.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yes, I know how the Awesome performs in TT, full PPCs alphas multiple times followed by a 2fer to cool off once in a while, it's how we all ran them in TT because it's what they do so damn well. It's an awesome Mech in TT for that reason, it's damage output is amazing and unlimited by ammo constraints and it can do that forever, even on hot planets. I make it out to be less and you guys immediately jump on the mistake and show exactly how it is SUPPOSED to work, something it SO doesn't do in MWO, it's horrible in MWO because you can't fire those PPCs constantly in an alpha, you have to chain the damn things. Combined with the slow as hell velocity on a LIGHTENING GUN and we have a weapon that's not at all effective.

So you guys have clearly shown that ghost heat ruins the actual builds as they are per canon. And it didn't take you too long once you got pointed in the right direction.

Now why is it we have the total opposite of this in MWO?

Oh, right, because some people, of which Bishop admits to being one of, can't deal with the loadouts being used and think they need something to make them unable to perform as they were designed. They aren't 'fair' builds, despite being straight from canon, so they need to be neutered somehow, like ghost heat, or, god's forbid, limited PPCs to no more than 2 being fired at a time like the Gauss. A suggestion made right here in this thread no less.

We WERE discussing removing ghost heat, NOT discussing ways to add FURTHER restraints to the system to make more and more builds totally useless, and thereby increase the laservomit that is so damn common in the game now. Amazing how that turned around isn't it?


BattleTech NEVER had balance, prior to the introduction of the Clans or after that. Building a video game on that basis means balance isn't something you'll EVER have, not if you want to keep the game BattleTech flavored, it's not the flavor of BattleTech, never was. MW2, Activision knew this, then again the devs who built MW2 were active BTech players, so they understood it and didn't try to change it. That is the reason MW2 was the best selling of all the MW series, it was as true to TT as you could get in a real time system, from the heat system to damages to armor values and the total lack of balance. MW3 tried to balance things, MW4 tried to balance things, and they sucked because of it. It's not MEANT to be a balanced game, any more than any other TT is meant to be balanced. That unbalanced nature is what makes them fun, and it's something that no one since Activision has been able to understand and accept. NO ONE ever called for half the bs we see demanded for MWO every single day, people accepted that the game was what it was, and they played it and had fun playing it. We had thousands of people who played it online, no one complained about the balance, ever, it was what it was, and people accepted it and had fun.

Now, well we see what we have today don't we? Everyone really wants us to all be using the same Mechs with the exact same weapons and without any skill being actually taken into account, no one should lose and everyone should win! That's FUN!

[Matthew Ace]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 28 June 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

It's my special snowflake left over from TT.

I wish solo and group had separate Elo rankings, so when I'm in solo I can frolic about in my stock+ AWS-8Q without fear of MM ******* me from piloting a Gigispike Whale in group queue.

Heck I still play my 9M with 3 ERPPC.

Playing it any other ways just seems like blatant sacrilege.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 28 June 2015 - 07:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 28 June 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Oh, right, because some people, of which Bishop admits to being one of, can't deal with the loadouts being used and think they need something to make them unable to perform as they were designed.

Oh really? Care to elucidate on how I try to keep things from performing as they do in TT? Because that is pure and utter nonsense.

[Bishop Steiner]

Matthew Ace, on 28 June 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Heck I still play my 9M with 3 ERPPC.

Playing it any other ways just seems like blatant sacrilege.

I'm just hoping when the new geometry comes in, I don't cry looking at my Awesome. Am hoping my 2 LLs stack over/under in the RA.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Oh really? Care to elucidate on how I try to keep things from performing as they do in TT? Because that is pure and utter nonsense.

Yeah I don;t recall ever seeing Bishop actively pursue hindering cannon loadouts. He, like many others including myself, comment on MWO game mechanics frequently enough, and the pros and cons of what we have and what we could have etc. Such is forum banter. But I haven't seen him ever push away a cannon loadout as something OP or non-viable in MWO.

maybe some of the words look that way, but I highly doubt that particular motive matched the words.


You know, when GH first came out, it did what it was supposed to. I mean, hate it or not, it took the cray cray uberboats, and they went away and we saw weapon loadout diversification.

now, maybe it wasnt profound, I mean people just subbed a single gauss for some PPC and lowered the alpha and heat at the same time. A new gaming of the system commenced.

BUT, GH did in fact end the stupid cray alpha strikes from PPC and even ML boats(and SRM, but PGI would subsequently fubar them for a year anyway regardless of GH)

Nowdays, there are two things they could do, well 3...

leave it all alone. I mean, I don;t really want them to, the alpha strikes are so big it is unprecedented in a MW game. Giving a mech numerous hardpoints is dangerous because of boat potential. There is a lot to the discussion, but suffice to say i think something has to give soon. Prolly when the HSR fix comes on the 7th.

ADD MORE GH EVEN YET. INow, this would reduce alphas the same way as it did before, and force more weapon diversification. IMO, MEH. I think you start adding more and more restrictions, you reduce more and more the value of the mechlab aspect of a battletech game. I mean we could add ghost heat and quirks to shoehorn every mech in game into a stock loadout or performance thereof, but then, why not just hardlock everything and run all stock mode. No thanks

Remove some ghostheat, and look at other causes as to why we have these 70 point alphas going on and certain mechs and loadouts trumping most others. Again, a big topic to cover, not really a thread for it here. Suffice to say, in the modern game, IMO GH could go away for a lot fo things, PPC being number one. No, scratch that, ERPPC being number one. It has been proven projectile speed is enough to keep the wanna be skill overlords from running many of the weapons(AC10 fits here too) and IMO, everyone cries foul about balance not from potential of a loadout or weapon but by it's popularity. Remove GH from PPC, they still wont flood the battle because too many can't aim well enough with them and they run hot.

I mean, didn;t they remove AC2 ghost heat? Pretty sure I havent been over run with those and macro players all over every match, which was the "reason" we got that to begin with.

Do it. Remove GH, or set it to 5 or somthing. Let us try it.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Oh really? Care to elucidate on how I try to keep things from performing as they do in TT? Because that is pure and utter nonsense.

Sorry Bishop, I misread who said what, no wonder it seemed so damn strange to me when I read it...again man, apologies, you didn't call for that.

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Anyways, I was playin with an old acquaintance this past week, some of you may know him, Ryan Steel, and we were speaking loosely on many MWO subjects, and it occurred to us that there are people in this game who innovate, and there are people who imitate. Innovators play the game from an outside the meta box standpoint and influence the game by creating the new **** and dictating narrative. Imitators take that meta and perfect it; they have the last laugh. Who's better...? Well tangibly the imitators, but they wouldn't be imitating **** if not for the people showing new ****, right? Hmm, kinda symbiotic. MavRCK echoed this later on in the talk and said it's basically the truth.

I think there is more innovation than we see in the open team queue, it probably happens in practices or similar scenarios where teams can test things - and solo queue drops where bringing some experimental build isn't a clear weakening of your team.

I'll personally test a half dozen builds at least on a new mech and once I see consistent results I'll generally shift towards that build (and very frequently that will also be what is currently the most optimal).


For example, I was playing "classic" Clan laser vomit before it was running rampant in the queues - I was actually embarrassed to talk about it because laser boating and large pulse lasers weren't thought of very positively yet at the time (people were still shifting from pinpoint ballistic/PPC loadouts).



To an extent I find this process organic, there is no singular authority doling out optimal configs for all of us to adopt - a lot of this is born in the tiny trial and error process of playing the game and seeing things work for others.


The truth is, there is little room to innovate once a meta is "solved", and currently the meta is mostly solved* (see ref below for TCG example) - especially in a game where there aren't clear counters to specific loadouts outside of comp games where people know the map, mode, tonnage, etc., beforehand and can try to predict what their opponents will do/bring and try to counter that (i.e. meta-strategy).


There are things that have the potential to shake up the meta.

Primarily: newly quirked mechs, brand new mechs and buffs/nerfs to specific weapons/mechs.


Outside of that real innovation is going to be extremely unlikely without a catalyst.


METAGAMING
* In popular trading card games, such as Magic: The Gathering or Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game players compete with decks they have created in advance and the "metagame" consists of the deck types that are currently popular and expected to show up in large numbers in a tournament. The knowledge of metagame trends can give players an edge against other participants, both while they are playing by quickly recognizing what kind of deck opponents have and guessing their likely cards or moves, and during the deck building process, by selecting cards that do well against current popular deck types at the possible expense of performance against rarer ones. Another example of metagaming would be bluffing opponents into expecting cards that you do not have, or surprising the competition with novel decks that they may not be prepared for. The secondary market of cards is heavily influenced by metagame trends: cards become more valuable when they are popular, often to the point of scarcity.^[4]

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 June 2015 - 09:17 PM.

[Soy]

Well again that's why I'm just simply sayin "unghost 3" cuz fact of matter is a lot of nerds want to nerf everything. But at same time, I'm obviously sitting here prepared if that **** went off and ready to headshot again with these sorts of builds. Saying unghost 3 is a catalyst, no? -.-

Either way I don't really care I'll dunk on everyone I'm just sayin it sucks when fifteen zillion nerfs force an entire community to forget artforms like proper soaking and how to shoot projectiles that aren't instantaneous or hit scan facerolling on spacebar from behind a rock.

And I'm tired of reading ill-informed peasants who want to make this about dice rolling. I mean no personal offense; somebody has to push back. Talk of fearing poptarts coming back from class 1 JJs getting tweaks is a bit too Chicken Little if you ask me.

I cut new **** and if it matches up with something you can cut new meta with then I explore it. The people who take it really far are typically the ones who spot it and approach it analytically to refine stuff.

New meta being based on guys who make websites that tier mechs is honestly really off-putting. I find it really really bad. It's not what I enjoy in gaming. Again if I am playing something I enjoy and it matches with meta then I usually go full throttle on it and see where it goes, and it works. But that's not all the time. Is this mech a top tier mech, no. But to be honest, it's close. Certainly not some scrub tier mech, as seen by more of them popping up in my bracket.......... sometimes by notable players.........

In addition new meta simply being defined by a carrot stick treadmill of obsoletion sucks - I rather prefer rotation if it's gotta be shifted on a consistent basis. The best is when you have a super balanced system (ie lets say the exact opposite of MWO rofl) that the meta doesn't have to be forced and there's plenty of depth for the community to dictate almost all of it [except exploits/cheesery that wasn't foreseen].

PS - meta also being defined by "this gun shoots twice as fast on this mech for some ******* ******** reason" is also really bad as well

Edited by Soy, 28 June 2015 - 09:23 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

Well again that's why I'm just simply sayin "unghost 3" cuz fact of matter is a lot of nerds want to nerf everything. But at same time, I'm obviously sitting here prepared if that **** went off and ready to headshot again with these sorts of builds. Saying unghost 3 is a catalyst, no? -.-

Either way I don't really care I'll dunk on everyone I'm just sayin it sucks when fifteen zillion nerfs force an entire community to forget artforms like proper soaking and how to shoot projectiles that aren't instantaneous or hit scan facerolling on spacebar from behind a rock.

And I'm tired of reading ill-informed peasants who want to make this about dice rolling. I mean no personal offense; somebody has to push back. Talk of fearing poptarts coming back from class 1 JJs getting tweaks is a bit too Chicken Little if you ask me.

I cut new **** and if it matches up with something you can cut new meta with then I explore it. The people who take it really far are typically the ones who spot it and approach it analytically to refine stuff.

New meta being based on guys who make websites that tier mechs is honestly really off-putting. I find it really really bad. It's not what I enjoy in gaming. Again if I am playing something I enjoy and it matches with meta then I usually go full throttle on it and see where it goes, and it works. But that's not all the time. Is this mech a top tier mech, no. But to be honest, it's close. Certainly not some scrub tier mech, as seen by more of them popping up in my bracket.......... sometimes by notable players.........

In addition new meta simply being defined by a carrot stick treadmill of obsoletion sucks - I rather prefer rotation if it's gotta be shifted on a consistent basis. The best is when you have a super balanced system (ie lets say the exact opposite of MWO rofl) that the meta doesn't have to be forced and there's plenty of depth for the community to dictate almost all of it [except exploits/cheesery that wasn't foreseen].

PS - meta also being defined by "this gun shoots twice as fast on this mech for some ******* ******** reason" is also really bad as well

The big thing about imitators vs innovators is imitators are more focused on perfection while innovators are like, "I'm gonna throw **** at a wall and see what sticks."

I remember when clans hit, everyone was taking their Timbers and putting on a JJ, Goose Waffle, and 2 ERPPCs and I'm over in my corner with my C with 2 cLPLs and 5 ERMLs puking painbows. Or cramming as many ERMLs and Goose waffles on my Whales as possible.

Like when the BLARG got it's quirks finally, I slapped 2 LPLs and 5 MLs on it, then a week later I see that build everywhere.

Or the Vindi's when they got their quirks, I saw 40% velocity and was like "come to daddy." Now I see the 1AA fairly often packing 2 PPCs.

Or the Garbro, once I got access to that one right arm with 6E hardpoints, I slapped on 8 ERMLs and Honeybadger IIC'd it up and loved it, while everyone else is trying to make a Timber and hating it.

More people need to do what I and a few others do, and that's have a large fridge stocked with beer one weekend and just throw ******** ass builds into the queue and see what sticks. A lot of the more popular builds I've seen started out that way when me and a few friends where playing "throw **** at the wall to see what sticks" and then a month later, those mechs with slight tweaks for improved performance are seen in the hands of the top meta crowd.

Oh well... I find it fun to build good stuff outside the meta.

[Joseph Mallan]

Soy, on 26 June 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

So I could feed my children more.

There. I said it.



Unghost 3 PPCs, dammit!

I can see this for say the Awesome which is supposed to be able to fight using 3 PPCs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

the difference between those 30 pt Poptarts and 80 pt DWFs?

21 heat for firing the 3 weapons and 3.5 times as much heat just for the F of it! On a supposedly cool running weapon hence the 7 heat for 20 damage!

Ghost heat is the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a game.

[Soy]

I don't want 3 on the Nova; I'm just simply saying.

I mean for example if I take this mech

Soy, on 26 June 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a5f66b347ad2949

On Terra or Tourmaline, each single cERPPC shot while stationary is 20 heat. So even if I fired 3 at same time that's 60 heat, not exactly spammable. Plus with JJ heat etc then I don't see it being a huge issue on heat maps. Yeah on Frozen Night it's more like 12 but still. Just sayin. This isn't really an argument I'm just simply pointing out how half the maps by default you can't just spam, at least not in a smallish poptart.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The duality of the forums...

TTK is too high, we need to find ways to make mechs more durable and last longer in combat so it feels like we are in giant walking robots.

UNGHOST HEAT ALL THE WEAPONS!!!!

lol, just too funny.

[Joseph Mallan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 29 June 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

The duality of the forums...

TTK is too high, we need to find ways to make mechs more durable and last longer in combat so it feels like we are in giant walking robots.

UNGHOST HEAT ALL THE WEAPONS!!!!

lol, just too funny.

Yes when a player wants both longer TTK (for me) and shorter TTK (for enemies). I at least am consistent. I support short TTK for my targets and refuse more armor for me. Consistent less TTK across the board.

[Vellron2005]

Soy, on 26 June 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

So I could feed my children more.

There. I said it.



Unghost 3 PPCs, dammit!

And I want 1 milion dollar! (said in the voice of Terrance & Philip)

To bad life dosen't work that way...

Wee wee...wee...get over yourself.

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

Well again that's why I'm just simply sayin "unghost 3" cuz fact of matter is a lot of nerds want to nerf everything. But at same time, I'm obviously sitting here prepared if that **** went off and ready to headshot again with these sorts of builds. Saying unghost 3 is a catalyst, no? -.-

Yes, I think un-ghosted 3 would be a small catalyst for specific mechs.

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

Either way I don't really care I'll dunk on everyone I'm just sayin it sucks when fifteen zillion nerfs force an entire community to forget artforms like proper soaking and how to shoot projectiles that aren't instantaneous or hit scan facerolling on spacebar from behind a rock.

Yes it does suck.

What sucks even more is if you spend enough consistent time here, you will also see baffling examples where some of the loudest whiners will do full 180 degree about faces and begin complaing about whatever is most prevalent.


To be clear, I'm fine with people changing their opinions - this is normal.


I'm not fine with their myopic nerf calls, and I get frustrated at the complete lack of foresight.



I tend to see potential cascade effects that nerfs/buffs can cause long before they are actually put into effect.



It's pretty funny actually, I should try to dig some of it up.

When I first started posting here I was telling people that weapons like IS LPLs were just a few tiny tweaks from being better than PPCs.

I was saying that PPCs and Ballistics were just a few tiny down tweaks from becoming inferior to Laser boating.

I had people raging at me in threads and calling me a noob - and these posts are at least 6 months before clan mechs even arrived.

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

And I'm tired of reading ill-informed peasants who want to make this about dice rolling. I mean no personal offense; somebody has to push back. Talk of fearing poptarts coming back from class 1 JJs getting tweaks is a bit too Chicken Little if you ask me.

You're preaching to the choir.

Oh, and about those Class 1 JJs?


http://www.reddit.co...save_jump_jets/

followed shortly by...

https://twitter.com/...567209589030912



You can thank me if the attention I drew to it doesn't make the situation worse...

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

New meta being based on guys who make websites that tier mechs is honestly really off-putting. I find it really really bad. It's not what I enjoy in gaming.

I feel like people are taking what GMan is doing the wrong way.

He's just putting out builds that are compliant with the current meta, he's also putting in builds he personally detests like LRMs, and he's not really setting the meta - he's just analyzing it.

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

In addition new meta simply being defined by a carrot stick treadmill of obsoletion sucks - I rather prefer rotation if it's gotta be shifted on a consistent basis. The best is when you have a super balanced system (ie lets say the exact opposite of MWO rofl) that the meta doesn't have to be forced and there's plenty of depth for the community to dictate almost all of it [except exploits/cheesery that wasn't foreseen].


PS - meta also being defined by "this gun shoots twice as fast on this mech for some ******* ******** reason" is also really bad as well

It does suck, for us as the customer/consumer.

It's part of many F2P cycles as part of the business model, much as new operating systems can obsolete new PC/Phone hardware to push people to purchase new hardware (some people are upgrading $600+ mobile phones on shorter than 24mo cycles!).

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 28 June 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

The big thing about imitators vs innovators is imitators are more focused on perfection while innovators are like, "I'm gonna throw **** at a wall and see what sticks."

The reality is that sometimes actual innovation is performed through refining/perfecting.


There is actually innovation inside that space.

Not all innovation is "total mind-blowing revolution!" - not even the iPhone was this, contrary to what people seem to believe.




Slightly OT:

I say this as someone who works directly with creators/innovators/refiners - marketing expects those teams to blow their minds with new! new! new! every 6 to 12 months.


The reality is that is a load of horsecrap.


Huge "innovation" breakthroughs don't usually come from trying random nonsense in a lab*, innovation comes in small steps, planning, research & refinement - and major breakthroughs are usually like 5 to 10 years in the making (and spending $$$).



*I love being on conference calls where some bigshot marketing goofball with zero technical knowledge says something idiotic like "Well let's just try it, no one else has it!" and the entire room of technical people rolls their eyes because they've all "tried it" before or know for a fact it simply doesn't work because of the laws of physics/chemistry.


It doesn't matter how badly marketing teams want ponies to fly and shoot magic rainbows from their bums, if the technology to give ponies clone-wings & rainbow spewing colons doesn't exist yet no amount of "trying it" is going to solve anything. Especially not when you're on a sub-18mo New Product development cycle.




(I'm expecting Fup might provide some color commentary in the form of gifs for my small side rant).

[Water Bear]

Lexx, on 26 June 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

The only mech that should be able to fire 3 PPCs (or ERPPC) without ghost heat is the Awesome.

Don't tell anyone, but the quirks on the -8Q are such that you already can fire 3 ppcs at a time for several volleys before getting into the red.

I frequently do this when one of the 4 ppcs on my -8Q gets destroyed - I switch to alphaing with 3.