121 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

That's our fault. Correct or not, from day one we (that is, the vocal majority of forumers) have screamed bloody murder at any hint that Hero mechs could be pay 2 win, so PGI has consistently released Hero mechs with fewer hard points than their contemporaries, generally without ECM, etc.

We asked, and PGI delivered.

And as for the Meta, PGI does not create nor foster the Meta. That is all on the Playa's. So if it were to move off from Energy tomorrow, or whenever, it won't be because 1 MC based Hero Mech got some (apparently) useful level of Energy points to use...

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 July 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Ultimax]

Almond Brown, on 06 July 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

And as for the Meta, PGI does not create nor foster the Meta. That is all on the Playa's.

Players do not create the meta.

Game mechanics create the meta.



Players simply respond to those game mechanics.

[Juodas Varnas]

Ultimatum X, on 06 July 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Players do not create the meta.

Game mechanics create the meta.



Players simply respond to those game mechanics.

Whatever you just said. Yes.

If players created meta themselves, i'm sure they would create something that's at least fun.
And anyone, who says that hill-humping and vomiting lasers is fun, is bloody wrong!

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 06 July 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Almond Brown, on 06 July 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

And as for the Meta, PGI does not create nor foster the Meta. That is all on the Playa's. So if it were to move off from Energy tomorrow, or whenever, it won't be because 1 MC based Hero Mech got some (apparently) useful level of Energy points to use...

Of course it won't be because of that. I suspect we'll see an end to the laser vomit meta come rebalance time (as that's how these things work) but it won't be because of the Hero. It'll just be funnier because of the hero.

Juodas Varnas, on 06 July 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Whatever you just said. Yes.

If players created meta themselves, i'm sure they would create something that's at least fun.
And anyone, who says that hill-humping and vomiting lasers is fun, is bloody wrong!

Actually, here's the thing. Stuff that players create in these games? Not just MWO, but basically every competitive PvP game? The "meta" is rarely, if ever, fun. It's almost always something very simple and focused, then done by everyone.

Players want fun, but with the exception of highly casual players they nearly never create fun. Players much more reliably ruin everything.

[Almond Brown]

Ultimatum X, on 06 July 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Players do not create the meta.

Game mechanics create the meta.

Players simply respond to those game mechanics.

So your saying PGI decide what the Meta would be before beginning production? If that were true, which it isn't, then the Meta would never change as those same "mechanics" have all existed since Closed Beta. Changes to said mechanics, (buffs or nerfs) tend to make those that are less desirable more so, and yet GH was as hated as any change, addition, next to 3PV of course, and yet Energy use today is at an all time HIGH, even with Clan Heat and grossly long burn times as a supposed draw back.

Players filter it all down until the end result is the best of any set of anything. Be it armor, weapons, engines, add-on's etc. etc. etc. The Dev respond to try and "re-balance" said shifts, not the other way around. And yet we have seen multiple "shifts" in Meta over countless "attempts to "re-balance" the current meta

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 July 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Lugh]

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

lol awesome!


I get that, and that's good. It just absolutely feels like pandering to the current meta, and in a totally redundant way. How is this really anything other than a TDR-5SS with one extra energy hardpoint? (OMG PAY TO WIN!)


After all, remember how awesome the TDR-5SS was before it got quirked... Such an awesome mech, that everyone loved.

And now in community warfare it's all you see, but you know how UP that thing is right?!? *rollseyes*

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 06 July 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

And now in community warfare it's all you see, but you know how UP that thing is right?!? *rollseyes*

Who said the 5SS was UP? Was it the same people who say the Timber Wolf is now also UP?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 06 July 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 July 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Who said the 5SS was UP? Was it the same people who say the Timber Wolf is now also UP?

Whoever said it, I'm 99% sure was sarcastic.
(The 1% is that he was actually mentally handicapped and i don't want to mock the person.)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 06 July 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 06 July 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Whatever you just said. Yes.

If players created meta themselves, i'm sure they would create something that's at least fun.
And anyone, who says that hill-humping and vomiting lasers is fun, is bloody wrong!

I would totally create an MG + Flamer meta if I could.

[Sjorpha]

Almond Brown, on 06 July 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

So your saying PGI decide what the Meta would be before beginning production?

Of course not, but their decisions about the game are still what creates the metagame. The fact that you don't know all the consequences of your actions doesn't change the reality of those consequences.

A game is a confined space of limited possibilities that players explore, it's like a procedurally generated landscape. The person creating the formula (PGI) won't be able to fully predict the landscape he creates, but neither will the person exploring it be able to change the landscape he explores.

In other words, the players actually don't create the metagame any more than Columbus created the americas. But if the space you explore is big enough it still feels creative to explore it, and of course high mountains require a lot of skill to climb.

The metagame trends at any given time is determined both by game design and by how much of the landscape players have been able to expore. It is quite possible that there are performance peaks higher than clan gauss vomit to explore in the current iteration of the game, all we know is that no known player has yet been able to climb whatever that mountain is. And we'll probably never know that since this game changes so much so quickly.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Wintersdark, on 06 July 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Players want fun, but with the exception of highly casual players they nearly never create fun. Players much more reliably ruin everything.

That's the funny thing about fun. It's highly subjective. I find the meta fun at times, and other times I find it boring. What makes the meta fun is winning. Winning is fun. I find losing not very fun.

I find the Army to be fun. Others find the Army to be grossly un-fun.

To try and define fun for others by using your perception of fun is a bit self serving.

[Wintersdark]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 06 July 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

That's the funny thing about fun. It's highly subjective. I find the meta fun at times, and other times I find it boring. What makes the meta fun is winning. Winning is fun. I find losing not very fun.

I find the Army to be fun. Others find the Army to be grossly un-fun.

To try and define fun for others by using your perception of fun is a bit self serving.

Yes, yes, yes.

I get that fun means different things to different people.

Let me rephrase my previous post, to clarify what I meant:

In aggregate, players will do what is most successful, irrespective of whether they find it fun or not.

Ignore individual players. "Players" as a whole, the most common activity will always be the most successful one, no matter how inane or ridiculous it can be. Individuals will have all sorts of random behaviors, but the most common as a group - the meta if you will - will always be whatever is most successful. However that's defined in the game - PROBABLY by winning, but not necessarily. Thus, why you see behavioral shifts during tournaments, in a very predictable way.

FupDup, on 06 July 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

I would totally create an MG + Flamer meta if I could.

It would be a glorious day.


Remember that brief time when MG's where actually decent? Not really GOOD per say, but actually threatening? Before they nerfed the crap out of them because Paul hates people having fun? That was fun. If they did that again, AND fixed Flamers, I'd have SO MUCH FUN in my Nova.

[Spheroid]

Well the quirks have been posted. Any opinions?

[Azarvakhsh]

Basically Top Dog got the armour/structure of 80/75 ton mechs. Not much in quirks for weapons probably for the better. 9 laser hardpoints, eek!!!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Spheroid, on 06 July 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Well the quirks have been posted. Any opinions?

Underwhelming but will be a somewhat effective mech for sure.

[Bors Mistral]

If it had JJ and/or MASC, I would've bought it.
It's not terrible, but there's nothing that makes it stand out from what we already have.

[Bullseye69]

It a 65 ton mech, I happen to like the thunderbolt not to tall not to wide and mostly energy friendly. I happen to have the 5sp,9se,9sec,9s,5ss and will be get the hero mech. To me having a mech I like to pilot that has a chill earning bonus is worth it especially when I Don't usually run premium time. It is what it is now if I was to complain it would be how does a 75 ton madcat out turn a 65 ton thunderbolt so easy. I can understand a light or medium doing it even the QuickDraw and dragon because of their speed but the mad cat moves like it a fast medium which is why everyone likea it I guess. To me a wave 3 closed beta player the only mech to choose from was inner sphere o have way to much money invested in inner sphere mech to change my mind now. I currently own phoenix, resistance 1,2 pack founder 1 mech choose ands the following heroes, Sara Jenner,oxide Jenner,ember firestarter, ANSI spider, pirate bane locust, grid iron hunchback, sparky griffin , grey death shadow hawk ,heavy metal highlander. That just the named heroes. So since I am a inner sphere player and do cw I have to use inner sphere since mixes tech not allowed. I am debating on buying the origins 2 pack since I really like 3 of the design the Jenner ,hunchback, highlander. But I will dwfinetly get the thunderbolt hero.

See you river city jump jet recommended.

[Karmen Baric]

Bors Mistral, on 06 July 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

If it had JJ and/or MASC, I would've bought it.
It's not terrible, but there's nothing that makes it stand out from what we already have.

Same, at least with JumpJets may have been diff nough to get. With weak quirks you overheat too quik to be usefull in pitched battle with this thunderbolt hero.

Edited by Karmen Baric, 07 July 2015 - 01:44 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

My 9 Flamer hero will make my team LOVE me...

[Ultimax]

Almond Brown, on 06 July 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

So your saying PGI decide what the Meta would be before beginning production? If that were true, which it isn't, then the Meta would never change as those same "mechanics" have all existed since Closed Beta.

No.

Are you watching the same game I am?


Jump Jet thrust & fuel are mechanics, Speeds of PPCs is a mechanic, Ghost heat is a mechanic, CXL ST loss vs. XL ST loss are mechanics, weapon convergence is a mechanic, burst duration of CUACs and Beam Durations of lasers are mechanics, all quirks are mechanics.




Those things (and many others) shape how the game will be played by players willing and able to read and respond to it.


Players don't create those mechanics, PGI does.

Saying they decide everything to shape the meta before hand is giving them too much credit - but it's pretty clear with today's patch that they are willing to throw some eggs at the wall and see what happens by BUFFING UACS & BUFFING PPCS to possibly shift things away from such a laser dominant meta. (and by my estimation there will at least be competition, without one of those specific systems suddenly re-dominating).


Or basically what many players have been telling them could potentially shift the meta.





Players do not create game mechanics, they adapt to them. Game mechanics shape the meta.


That holds true for this, and every game that has rules/mechanics.


From nerds at a kitchen table figuring out how to game their Paladin's build to increase success on D20 roles, to MWO where players try to reduce personal risk by decreasing exposure time to enemy mechs by using a big alpha - because a big alpha is available - these are the game mechanics that players adapt to.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 July 2015 - 08:43 AM.