183 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 05 July 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Outside of CW, there's no issues with Clan vs IS Tech, we don't see 75% or greater of the population dropping in only Clan Mechs in solo/group non-CW ques

This is a moot point, there are several factors that play into mech usage outside of how good it is. It should not be the sole deciding factor on the power of mechs.

Kristov Kerensky, on 05 July 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Again, I don't see a problem with the state of parity as it stands currently, the Clans and the IS are pretty evenly matched, no side has the clear advantage, repeatedly we've seen this proven out in CW, the only mode where we can clearly see the division between IS and Clan Tech.

You havn't proven anything with CW, if we are going to use statistics to prove things, what do you have to say about Clans taking swathes of IS territory?

[Kristov Kerensky]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 July 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

This is a moot point, there are several factors that play into mech usage outside of how good it is. It should not be the sole deciding factor on the power of mechs.


You havn't proven anything with CW, if we are going to use statistics to prove things, what do you have to say about Clans taking swathes of IS territory?

'Clans are OP' 'People not using Clan Mechs proves nothing'...either Clan are OP or they aren't, what people use IS directly effected by whether or not it's either really OP or perceived to be OP.

What do I say about the Clans taking swathes of IS territory? Same thing I say about those SAME TEAMS in the Clans taking huge swathes of Clan planets before they hit the IS, it's the TEAMS doing it and it's regardless of the Tech being brought to the field, since they do it to BOTH Clan and IS planets. I'm pretty sure the Clans weren't using IS Mechs to defend their own planets against the Clan teams attacking them, and yet they lost constantly. Funny how that OP Clan Tech didn't seem to work against the OP Clan Tech isn't it? Not like the TEAMS involved and the player's skills or lack thereof might have been a factor at all when it was Clan vs Clan, since the Tech was even, right?

You said it yourself Quicksilver, top comp units are using IS Mechs and Clan Mechs, depends on the team and what they prefer to use. If Clan was OP, there'd be no 'what they prefer' line there, top comp teams only use the best. Since they use BOTH Techs, parity is obvious.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 05 July 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

You said it yourself Quicksilver, top comp units are using IS Mechs and Clan Mechs, depends on the team and what they prefer to use.

You misunderstand, they are using both, but not on equal terms.

Dire Wolf is the goto assault in about 80% of matches, simply because there is no Clan Assault with high mounts like the Stalker.
Clan heavies are the goto choice unless you plan to push with pulse and even then it is a close call.
Wolverine is the medium for poking and ranged fights, but for everything else it is a tossup between the SCrow/Nova/Griffin/Wolverine. There is more variety in this weight class than any other class unless we are talking poke fights.
Firestarters and Ravens for lights because Clan lights need more speed to be acceptable lights, however the speculation is that the Arctic Cheetah will change that, and if the Jenner IIC were added right now, it would be the definitive light.

[Hotthedd]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 July 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

NASCAR and alphastrikes have nothing to do with asymmetric balance. NASCAR is a result of trying to flank teams on smaller maps. Alphastrikes are a result of FLD being so important in FPS (you won't ever change this).

NASCAR has to do with the zerging deathball being the most effective thing to do in this game. Much of this is due to map design, but just as much has to do with the fact that every game mode is a variation of team deathmatch.

FLD IS important in FPS, but it COULD be changed. We could not have FLD at all except for gauss rifles.

With asymmetrically balanced missions, we could have 'mechs with roles. Yes, some mechs would be better than others in some ways, but worse in others. Since we have only one thing we have to be good at, mechs that are better for that are simply better.

We don't have to settle for that.

Ultimatum X, on 05 July 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Not that I know Hotthedd's preferences, but I'm often amazed when the people who claim to hate NASCAR (i.e. flanking) also claim to hate humping rocks.


I think for a section of the playerbase, they want to start matches at 250m with no rocks & no real movement "fur muh brawls".

NASCAR isn't really flanking. It IS in a sense, but if everybody is flanking everyone else counter clockwise, is it REALLY flanking?

I enjoy many styles depending on my ride. Hit&Run, Brawling, Skirmishing are all fun, although I do not have the temperament to be a good sniper or LRM boat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 05 July 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

What do I say about the Clans taking swathes of IS territory? Same thing I say about those SAME TEAMS in the Clans taking huge swathes of Clan planets before they hit the IS, it's the TEAMS doing it and it's regardless of the Tech being brought to the field, since they do it to BOTH Clan and IS planets. I'm pretty sure the Clans weren't using IS Mechs to defend their own planets against the Clan teams attacking them, and yet they lost constantly. Funny how that OP Clan Tech didn't seem to work against the OP Clan Tech isn't it? Not like the TEAMS involved and the player's skills or lack thereof might have been a factor at all when it was Clan vs Clan, since the Tech was even, right?

Having said all that, how can you say anything is balanced or not balanced simply based on CW usage etc?

[Kristov Kerensky]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 July 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

You misunderstand, they are using both, but not on equal terms.

Dire Wolf is the goto assault in about 80% of matches, simply because there is no Clan Assault with high mounts like the Stalker.
Clan heavies are the goto choice unless you plan to push with pulse and even then it is a close call.
Wolverine is the medium for poking and ranged fights, but for everything else it is a tossup between the SCrow/Nova/Griffin/Wolverine. There is more variety in this weight class than any other class unless we are talking poke fights.
Firestarters and Ravens for lights because Clan lights need more speed to be acceptable lights, however the speculation is that the Arctic Cheetah will change that, and if the Jenner IIC were added right now, it would be the definitive light.

Read what you posted here....and tell me again that Clans are OP with a straight face, go on...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 05 July 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

NASCAR has to do with the zerging deathball being the most effective thing to do in this game. Much of this is due to map design, but just as much has to do with the fact that every game mode is a variation of team deathmatch.

NASCARing and zerg deathballs are two separate ideas, but it is definitely something to do with map design and bad objective based gameplay. All the objectives in the game are fairly static. The best objective in the game was the old assault mode which we will be getting back.

Hotthedd, on 05 July 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

FLD IS important in FPS, but it COULD be changed. We could not have FLD at all except for gauss rifles.

It would just make Gauss that much more important.

Hotthedd, on 05 July 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

With asymmetrically balanced missions, we could have 'mechs with roles. Yes, some mechs would be better than others in some ways, but worse in others. Since we have only one thing we have to be good at, mechs that are better for that are simply better.

Asymmetrical balanced tech is different from asymmetrical balanced game modes, just want to point that out.

Hotthedd, on 05 July 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

NASCAR isn't really flanking. It IS in a sense, but if everybody is flanking everyone else counter clockwise, is it REALLY flanking?

Yes...

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 July 2015 - 08:39 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 05 July 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Read what you posted here....and tell me again that Clans are OP with a straight face, go on...

Clan tech is OP.

Quirks are just a bandaid trying to mitigate the terrible parity.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 July 2015 - 08:29 PM.

[Revis Volek]

El Bandito, on 05 July 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

The day I can safely run with my XL Atlas is a good day indeed.




Except 400XL Wubshee is has the potential to be a total monster with this change. Wait a minute, Mcgral drives 400XL Wubshee, and he is the one who made this thread. I see where this is going.

Also, wouldn't IS mechs packing XL engines means they can pack more firepower, thus at least partially nullifying the potential TTK increase?

\

Oh McGral....someone found your hidden agenda!!! hahaha

But wouldn't this also bring some of those IS outliners (mediums and certain Heavies) in line with the top tier mechs?

Higher Alphas and More tanky Engines on mechs like BJ and Enforcers would be amazing! Run Dragons with XL's to maximize the Dual AC5 builds and the like while still being confident in the mechs durability. A mech like the Banshee would yes become a monster and something i may try going toe to toe with a DWF after said change.....id survive ST lose....mmm so sweet! And an Atlas with a ClanXL equivalent?!?! OMG!

But i do see this also resulting in lower TTK, which is why i am all for a....

TRUE HEAT SCALE after XL NORMALIZATION!

And this would also please TT purists while the rest of us get a more balanced game!

Edited by DarthRevis, 09 July 2015 - 11:18 AM.

[Deathlike]

DarthRevis, on 09 July 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

TRUE HEAT SCALE after XL NORMALIZATION!

You know we can't have nice things.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Soo, IS QQ about their 1 side loss XL vs Clan 2side loss XL. Well, can the Clan cry that the IS Standard is a 3 loss torso.....

[LordKnightFandragon]

DarthRevis, on 09 July 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

TRUE HEAT SCALE after XL NORMALIZATION!

And this would also please TT purists while the rest of us get a more balanced game!

Players are not all over a normal, good heat scale cuz then their 12 laser FS9s and 19 retrofitted LPL Banshees and such would not longer be viable mechs. You mean the mech building process would require more time and thinking then just....

weapons? oh, LPL, LPL, MPL, LPL, MPL, MPL....oh 4 more tons? ok, MPL, MPL...ok good.

Load Training grounds.....Fire groups...what to do.

Oh, here we go.

Group 1: LPL, LPL, LPL, Group 2, MPL, MPL, MPL, MPL, MPL. Group 3, all 8 of them.

Good!

In game...see enemy mech, LMB/RMB....Enemy mech, destroyed, heat scale: 78%...cool...

back up, repeat....

How dare you even think of trying to ruin that meta!!!!!! BURN HIM for his heresy!!!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 July 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

Soo, IS QQ about their 1 side loss XL vs Clan 2side loss XL. Well, can the Clan cry that the IS Standard is a 3 loss torso.....

No clanner cares about the Standard Engine because zombie mechs have not been relevant since the old brawl meta and the days of the Centurion's broken hitboxes.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 05 July 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Except 400XL Wubshee is has the potential to be a total monster with this change. Wait a minute, Mcgral drives 400XL Wubshee, and he is the one who made this thread. I see where this is going.

Also, wouldn't IS mechs packing XL engines means they can pack more firepower, thus at least partially nullifying the potential TTK increase?

The larger CT is the source of most deaths; ST is rare in comparison.


You'd have to list some mechs who gain more firepower with going XL, and who's worth staying STD.



Stalker would probably stay STD, due to hitboxes and crit slots. It can go nearly max STD and be fine (due to low cap). Energy boats have a strong incentive to stay STD if they already are, because half heat dissipation is a BIG blow.


Assaults moving at Legged speeds, or max speed, is a decision. Victors would stay XL, as they already have to, while Awesomes might remain STD (engine caps probably the larger decision...perhaps not the 9M)

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

The larger CT is the source of most deaths; ST is rare in comparison.

You'd have to list some mechs who gain more firepower with going XL, and who's worth staying STD.


Stalker would probably stay STD, due to hitboxes and crit slots. It can go nearly max STD and be fine (due to low cap). Energy boats have a strong incentive to stay STD if they already are, because half heat dissipation is a BIG blow.

Assaults moving at Legged speeds, or max speed, is a decision. Victors would stay XL, as they already have to, while Awesomes might remain STD (engine caps probably the larger decision...perhaps not the 9M)

Only mechs that will stay Std is the Stalker (except the LRM variants) and some of the Awesome (300 engine cap). And some mechs with torso AC20 can choose to stay Std (thanks to sucky IS XL with three slot ST). But that's it.

All other mechs (even energy config) can benefit from larger XL engines, as they have good amount of engine slots for DHS, in addition to better mobility, which in itself is additional defense.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 July 2015 - 04:36 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 09 July 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Only mechs that will stay Std is the Stalker (except the LRM variants) and some of the Awesome (300 engine cap). And some mechs with torso AC20 can choose to stay Std (thanks to sucky IS XL with three slot ST). But that's it.

All other mechs (even energy config) can benefit from larger XL engines, as they have good amount of engine slots for DHS, in addition to better mobility, which in itself is additional defense.

I can see some Hunches staying, such as the 4G, due to quirks and AC20s. LFEs ruin that part. Engine cap does hamper a few of them, such as the 4SP...but I guess MPLs instead of MLs fills most of that.

[Mcgral18]

So, for PGI's rebalance...are we expecting Normalization?


They said no more 50% (which means 67%) quirks, which are what made some robots worthwhile.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 14 August 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

So, for PGI's rebalance...are we expecting Normalization?


They said no more 50% (which means 67%) quirks, which are what made some robots worthwhile.

Lol goodbye Thunderbolt 5SS. Eh, on second thought it could just have its range reduced to 15%/15% for a total of 30 % increase to medium pulse lasers.

Good Riddance to Dragon-1N and Huginn

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 August 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 August 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Lol goodbye Thunderbolt 5SS. Eh, on second thought it could just have its range reduced to 15%/15% for a total of 30 % increase to medium pulse lasers.

Good Riddance to Dragon-1N and Huginn

We were supposed to get a public test Soon™, hopefully before September.

I guess July was too optimistic.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 14 August 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

We were supposed to get a public test Soon™, hopefully before September.

I guess July was too optimistic.

Big things NOT in July, amirite?