118 replies to this topic

[Jazzbandit1313]

Really guys, what's the big deal here? I've been buying one of every clan mech with cbills I didnt get in a pack to try it out, and so far, the summoner is one of my favorite. It feels great right off the bat, not even basic'd, and has decent hardpoints for dual UAC5's, gauss, or heavier AC's Great for peeking and shooting. It's nice and snappy. Add the JJ's in, and its one of the most fluid and fun to pilot for me.

Why don't you guys like it?

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 13 June 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Poor construction (Ferro, no Endo), HoverJets™, lack of hardpoints.

Arms are lower, but can be worked around.



It would be a perfect Dual Gauss mech, if it were a Battlemech. Shame it's an inferior Omni.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Mcgral18, on 13 June 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

Poor construction (Ferro, no Endo), HoverJets™, lack of hardpoints.

Arms are lower, but can be worked around.



It would be a perfect Dual Gauss mech, if it were a Battlemech. Shame it's an inferior Omni.

The JJ's are perfect on this mech. Don't take up too much room, but are amazing for mobility. Hardpoints are just fine. I think people are comparing it to the god tier crow and wolf too much

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bad hard points.

[Deathlike]

The "Suckoner" has a lot more durability than a Cataphract for what it is worth.

Its failing has more to do with build diversity, as it's actually very limited (4E+2B and 5M are the optimal hardpoint loadouts).

This and omnimech rules and omnipod options (waiting on the Summoner-M's 1E+1M LT to do something more interesting) are the true issues at the moment.

[LT. HARDCASE]

I love my Prime.

It'll be a peeking terror when the energy LT comes out.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Only reason I haven't gotten to them yet is being space poor and needing to grind other mechs for what I have already (Going clan pushed down grinding my King Crabs for example).

I'll get some eventually, and can wait for a future sale at this point, that's what accerated me going with Warhawks, Mad Dogs and Gargoyles recently, with that Warhawk prize being a big factor in changing my to do list around.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Praetor Knight, on 13 June 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

that Warhawk prize being a big factor in changing my to do list around.

warhawk prize?

[Wintersdark]

It's a sturdy mech, but it's a gimped one. It helps that UAC's got buffed a bit, but ultimately the Summoner suffers from a severe tonnage/hardpoint starvation, amplified by the lack of good Clan heavy weapons.

Builds are horrendously limited. If it could mount Endo, the additional ammo you could carry would help a lot. But it can't.

21t pod space with 4E1B1M isn't a very awesome setup. If you use the ballistic, you're going to want to run Gauss (because Clan UAC's are kinda meh, maybe mediocre now with the buff, but just one? lol) That leaves 6 tons after ammo, 4 ERML's and 2 DHS? That's not exactly an awe inspiring loadout.

Basically, what happens is that everything you can do on a Summoner, you can do on another mech better.

[Ultimax]

The good builds it has are better than most of the possible Good builds on low-quirked IS heavies, but not as powerful as most of the highly quirked IS heavies.

The good builds it has are not as good as the good builds you can do on the TBR & HBR - top tier mechs that people want their Summoner to function equally as well as.

The good builds it has are few, and restricted to specific load outs. A lot of players want more freedom.



As a power player myself, I don't play the Summoner because I have the TBR & HBR available.



In Hypothetical Ultimatum-land, If I didn't have those, I'd play my Summoner more than I play my CTFs, Jagers & probably Grasshoppers (which is extremely rarely, these days).

I'd play a 5SS laser build over a Summoner laser build, but I'd play the Summoner for anything else (5x ASRM 6s, Gauss+Lasers, Gauss + CERPPC).



TL;DR: It's not as good as the TBR and HBR, and people want the SMN to be as good as those mechs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 June 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

• Because there are only a few good builds, and an infinite number of bad ones
  
• Lack of hardpoints = less variety, less experimentation
  
• No Endo = less room for extra gear. Most Summoner builds are either min-maxed or sacrifice firepower for the sake of extra gear like CAP, AMS and targeting computer.
  
• Because the Summoner's iconic look, with the powerful weapons in the arms and the giant missile launcher, is lost when everyone is using Nipple Canons with laser arms. Yes, you can run Dual CUAC5 nipples, but at what cost!? You've taken one of Battletech's most glorious designs and turned it into an abomination.

And as a personal pet peeve - the CUAC10 and CUAC20 both look ridiculous in this game. They're the lamest weapon design I have ever seen in any FPS game I can recall. They look like Grandma Duck's double-barrelled blunderbuss. So while the Summoner would do ok with a CUAC10 or CUAC20 in the arm, I just can't bring myself to defile my mech like that.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Jazzbandit1313, on 13 June 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

warhawk prize?

That tournament where we were able to choose between the banshee champ, and warhawk.
I forgot the name and need to search for it.

Edit: Battle of Tuk, and then I think I got a Stormcrow on a later Tourney.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 13 June 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[lshtaria]

It's gimped with hardpoints but has tremendous mobility buffs. That, along with its bad rep makes it a killer mech on the field, assuming you know how to make the most of your mechs of course.

The Summoner's buffs really do make it a decent mech. If you're struggling to make it work then I don't think you'll ever make it work I'm afraid.

It's not perfect, it's not even niche in anything really but it is a pretty solid 2nd line mech and I enjoy piloting mine.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 13 June 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

TL;DR: It's not as good as the TBR and HBR, and people want the SMN to be as good as those mechs.

It's also not as good as the Stormcrow.

While the SCR lacks jets, the Summoner's jets aren't particularly great (70t heavy sucks), and the Stormcrow brings more tonnage for weaponry to the field with more hardpoint choice.

Every single one of it's good builds are better on another Clan mech, and in almost every case it's better on a lighter clan mech.

Edited by Wintersdark, 13 June 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Soy]

sucks the big one

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

It's also not as good as the Stormcrow.

While the SCR lacks jets, the Summoner's jets aren't particularly great (70t heavy sucks), and the Stormcrow brings more tonnage for weaponry to the field with more hardpoint choice.

The Summoner's jets do not suck. I wish people would stop trying to sell that.

It's probably one of the best jumpers in the entire heavy class, with the outright highest overall mobility and solid survivability overall.



The Stormcrow does not have more tonnage available for any build that requires heatsinks (i.e. most clan builds) - because it starts with 4 less heatsinks than the SMN does

So that's 20.69 tons + 4 tons of extra DHS for the Summoner vs. 22.86 tons for the Stormcrow.



What the Stormcrow does have is more energy hardpoints, allowing it to boat CERMLAS - which is also what was specifically nerfed on the Stormcrow.


If we gave the Summoner 2 more energy hardpoints, it would be a completely different mech.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 June 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Basically, it's a 70t mech that packs the loadouts you'd expect to see on a 60t IS mech.

For example:

If you trim your armor some, you could mount:

2xcLPL, UAC5 w/ 2.5t ammo. 2.5t. On a UAC5. You'd burn through that in no time at all.

Basically, the lack of Endosteel and low hardpoint count means you're losing the lower weight aspect of Clan weapons... but keeping the burst fire, long durations, etc.

[bad arcade kitty]

the lack of jj on scr is infuriating actually

[Alistair Winter]

I will say this though:

The stock Summoner Prime is kind of fun to pilot. If you just accept that it's going to be sub-par and try to appreciate the small victories, it's kind of fun to play the Summoner the way it was meant to be played.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 13 June 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

If we gave the Summoner 2 more energy hardpoints, it would be a completely different mech.

Yes, it would be. But it would also be Yet Another Laser Vomit Clan Mech. God, yuck.

Sure, the Stormcrow has two less built in DHS, but at least it can run a Gauss+Laser build with ammo. And the Stormcrow is 15 tons lighter.

Or, you could give the Summoner Endo-steel, so it could actually run ballistics and not run out of ammo two seconds into the match.

As to the jets? Sure, it's the best 70t heavy jumper, on account of having 5 jets. If it had 4, or the CTF 3D had 5, they'd jump exactly the same. Mind you, who used 4 JJ's on a 3D? Really, who runs that many 1t jump jets on anything?

The Summoner doesn't have some innate buff to jumping.