175 replies to this topic

[jss78]

stjobe, on 08 July 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

If my experience the last two days is anything to go by, then yes. I die a *lot* more often to side-torso destruction - I even had an ammo explosion take out my little Urbie today after someone perforated its side torso.

I wonder if the HSR improvement will cause a reassessment of the benefits of STD vs. XL engines, in some mechs? I've been levelling up my Panthers, and I've lost a side torsos curiously often after the patch. It used to be rare. Luckily I've been too cheap to XL them yet...

[totgeboren]

I have been leveling up Panthers these last days, and it's only against other lights that I have noticed a difference. I don't need to run away anymore, even if I'm armed with a ppc/erppc!

The problem for Lights imo is that they earn so little c-bills. With my Awesomes I do at least 500 dmg almost every game and earn say a minimum of 120,000 c-bills. On a good game with my Panthers I do a bit over 300 dmg and earn maybe 80-90,000 c-bills. (The examples are because I run PPC/ERPPC Panthers and Awesomes, so there is some form of overlap in dmg).

Even when scouting/flanking/spotting/sniping, the raw firepower of the bigger mechs just leads to way more c-bills, which feels unnecessarily punishing for lights.

[shopsmart]

Only had a little time to play in the last few days.

Saw my locust drop like a fly more than usual. Never realized just how bad the hit reg was. It was disconcerting to see as I did real good and now get smeared. Time to learn new things and adjust. Also noticed my damage per match has plummetted despite dying too. Had matches where would see 300 damage now 150 or less. C-bills down too.

Urbanmechs aren't as fun not with them being popped so easily now. No other comparisons to do.

Lights might need some re-exaimination. Light que has plummetted also.

New JJ physics though, loving it on the mediums.

[Bishop Steiner]

shopsmart, on 09 July 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

Only had a little time to play in the last few days.

Saw my locust drop like a fly more than usual. Never realized just how bad the hit reg was. It was disconcerting to see as I did real good and now get smeared. Time to learn new things and adjust. Also noticed my damage per match has plummetted despite dying too. Had matches where would see 300 damage now 150 or less. C-bills down too.

Urbanmechs aren't as fun not with them being popped so easily now. No other comparisons to do.

Lights might need some re-exaimination. Light que has plummetted also.

New JJ physics though, loving it on the mediums.

Honestly, in my Adders and Urbies, I haven't seen a difference, or at least not enough to mentally register. They never went fast enough for extra lagshielding, etc, anyhow. But those mechs that ran 150 kph though Assault Lances, with impunity before? Not so much.

I'm pretty OK with that. Lights, if one wants to be a duelist, and go toe to toe, instead of using their speed and size to fight asymmetrically, should be the toughest class, because if they can outduel, face to face everything else AND still go 150-170, and jump all over the place....why would you ever use anything else?

Lights absolutely SHOULD be able to beat an Assault or Heavy in a 1v1 situation, but it should take intelligent use of cover, flanking, ambush, hit and run to do it. I still see players pull it off. What I also see is a lot of players who weren't as good as thought (Lagshield/HSR covered a number of sins) getting a reality check. I think I like your listed thought.... "learn new things and adjust".

Sadly, I figure few people echo that thought, and instead will simply look for the next EZmode to lean on.

[FitzSimmons]

totgeboren, on 09 July 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

I have been leveling up Panthers these last days, and it's only against other lights that I have noticed a difference. I don't need to run away anymore, even if I'm armed with a ppc/erppc!

The problem for Lights imo is that they earn so little c-bills. With my Awesomes I do at least 500 dmg almost every game and earn say a minimum of 120,000 c-bills. On a good game with my Panthers I do a bit over 300 dmg and earn maybe 80-90,000 c-bills. (The examples are because I run PPC/ERPPC Panthers and Awesomes, so there is some form of overlap in dmg).

Even when scouting/flanking/spotting/sniping, the raw firepower of the bigger mechs just leads to way more c-bills, which feels unnecessarily punishing for lights.

Are you getting 8+ assists? Focus fire is good but if you're trying to earn c-bills you need to at least touch as many targets as you can.

If its a matter of surviving long enough - make sure you stay mobile. I see a lot of panthers poking from the same spot over and over until they catch a dual gauss in the nose.

300 dmg light match should be earning more C-Bills than a 500 dmg assault every time.

[SmoothCriminal]

I would expect lights to start packing much longer range weapons (eg Panther). have yet to bump into a meta Firestarter to see how it fares...

[GeistHrafn]

FitzSimmons, on 09 July 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

Are you getting 8+ assists? Focus fire is good but if you're trying to earn c-bills you need to at least touch as many targets as you can.

If its a matter of surviving long enough - make sure you stay mobile. I see a lot of panthers poking from the same spot over and over until they catch a dual gauss in the nose.

300 dmg light match should be earning more C-Bills than a 500 dmg assault every time.

Indeed. I'm averaging 250k c-bills (on a win) with my Raven 3L w/ Narc and UAV. The locked damage bonuses, 8-10 assists, occasionally a kill or 2 add up pretty quickly.

[totgeboren]

FitzSimmons, on 09 July 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

Are you getting 8+ assists? Focus fire is good but if you're trying to earn c-bills you need to at least touch as many targets as you can.

If its a matter of surviving long enough - make sure you stay mobile. I see a lot of panthers poking from the same spot over and over until they catch a dual gauss in the nose.

300 dmg light match should be earning more C-Bills than a 500 dmg assault every time.

Yeah I get 8+ assist and often a kill or two, moving and shooting. Except the games where I die first because of some stupid positioning, I tend to be one of the later to die, win or loss.

My low earnings might be because I don't have either narc or tag. I mean, looking at my stats (I know they are kinda bugged) now while levelling, I just elited my my PNT-8Z and so far have 54 kills to 28 deaths, and a w/l ratio of 1.2.

Dunno, I thought I was doing pretty well but I have never even been close to earning 250k c-bills in my Panters!

*edit*
Ok, I have been looking a bit closer at my c-bills. Wins tend to net me perhaps 110-120k, and losses around half, so say 80k on average with my Panthers.

Edited by totgeboren, 09 July 2015 - 07:51 AM.

[Tordin]

Alistair Winter, on 07 July 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

I've been smashing Spiders and Locusts with PPCs after the patch, which used to be extremely hard before, with my 130 ping. So yeah, seems better now.

Im been hitting lights more often now than ever too. My ping is about the same as yours, ca 146 on average here in southern Trøndelag .

[Sprouticus]

For everyone complaining about the survivability of lights:

1) Yes, they are less survivable. This was expected. I believe PGI is doing a balance pass soonish overall.
2) Yes, having better rewards for specific roles would be optimal IMO. Been saying this for years
3) Lights are TREMENDOUSLY useful in assault right now. Assault has been totally spread out/run and gun since the patch, it is awesome. And lights excel in that environment.


Now, one thing about the idea that lights have no role

Here is what lights can do that others can't: Move fast....Wow, brilliant you say. Thank you captain obvious you say.

But here is why that is useful in MWO

1) scouting. Sure, scouting is not tremendously useful in MWO. More so in Assault now, but the maps are smallish. But fast mechs CAN scout better than others.
2) Escort duty- Yes, a Hellbringer can escort just as well as a Kitfox. What a HB can't do is move around the battlefield from flank to flank quickly in response to engagements. Even in deathball configs you still tend to have a lot of flanking, and the ability to focus fire on either flank quickly is huge.
3) capping- like it or not, it is part of the game. Lights can do this better than anyone, especially on larger maps. They can cap and get to the fight quickly if needed.

4) Defense: The ability to quickly get back to the bases/caps on Assault and Conquest is invaluable.

[Haike]

I have average 236-239 ping(very stable) and i can confirm the HSR has improved tremendously. I ran a test with my TBR with laser vomit, and i am getting extremely fast kills as i can actually target the component i want. I just did a game where i went 5kills with 460dmg done. thats less than 100dmg average per kill, with an alpha of 54(standard vomit of 2LPL+4med) that means 2 strikes = 1kill

I also no longer have to wait for good angles(running towards or away, never sideway) /fire into empty space infront of lights in order to hit them.

My damage is now extremely consistent with my mental prediction of my damage done. It used to be i predicted myself to score certain dmg, i would have a variance of at least 30-40%. Now the variance has drop to 10% or less. More often than not i seem to score more damage than i thought i did.

Thanks for fixing hit reg! lasers are definitely extremely usable now!

Edited by Haike, 09 July 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[Greenjulius]

Sprouticus, on 09 July 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

For everyone complaining about the survivability of lights:

1) Yes, they are less survivable. This was expected. I believe PGI is doing a balance pass soonish overall.
2) Yes, having better rewards for specific roles would be optimal IMO. Been saying this for years
3) Lights are TREMENDOUSLY useful in assault right now. Assault has been totally spread out/run and gun since the patch, it is awesome. And lights excel in that environment.


Now, one thing about the idea that lights have no role

Here is what lights can do that others can't: Move fast....Wow, brilliant you say. Thank you captain obvious you say.

But here is why that is useful in MWO

1) scouting. Sure, scouting is not tremendously useful in MWO. More so in Assault now, but the maps are smallish. But fast mechs CAN scout better than others.
2) Escort duty- Yes, a Hellbringer can escort just as well as a Kitfox. What a HB can't do is move around the battlefield from flank to flank quickly in response to engagements. Even in deathball configs you still tend to have a lot of flanking, and the ability to focus fire on either flank quickly is huge.
3) capping- like it or not, it is part of the game. Lights can do this better than anyone, especially on larger maps. They can cap and get to the fight quickly if needed.

4) Defense: The ability to quickly get back to the bases/caps on Assault and Conquest is invaluable.

If your goal is only to win on assault, I completely agree. Lights make great mechs on an assault map. But what if you play skirmish? Are you just screwed to be the guy that watches things and plinks? I see people posting that they do fine in their ECM 2xERLL 3L Ravens, but not much from other lights who are stuck with brawling weapons. Or worse yet, stuck with slow lights. IE; Clan lights, Panthers, Urbanmechs, etc.

Another problem comes in if you care about c-bills... at all. Light mechs can't fight any decent medium, heavy or assault pilot now that they pop with 1-2 good vomits. I took out my laser vomit Executioner and was popping lights with no trouble, at all ranges. Fun for me, but not the lights, I'm sure.

There is now nearly no light that can be called a fighting light, except for fighting other lights.

I know that PGI is going to give "role warfare" another go, but I highly doubt they are going to come up with something that solves the existential crisis lights are in now.

And your point about the Hellbringer not being able to flank as well as a light... What are you comparing it too; the Adder, Kitfox or Mist Lynx? We all know that the difference in speeds is 17.8kph. 89.1 to 106.9. The Mist Lynx doesn't count because it's terrible. That makes clan lights pathetic. The Ice Ferret does clan lights better than clan lights. The Arctic Cheetah is invalidate all of the above.

So that means I'm going back to my easy crutch clan heavies. As if I really just wanted to keep playing my OP Loki every time I play MWO.

Edited by Greenjulius, 09 July 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I really love how the hit reg fixes have completely debunked the "FS9's have broken hit boxes!!" crowd.

[Greenjulius]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 July 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

I really love how the hit reg fixes have completely debunked the "FS9's have broken hit boxes!!" crowd.

Yeah, when they "fixed" hitreg many months ago (for about a day) I remember well how bad it affected my lights. Then it went back to crap and my Kitfoxes became viable mechs again.

Hopefully this will shut up people who call the firestarter the most overpowered mech in the game. It's powerful, but easily countered. Now, it dies like every other light.

Edited by Greenjulius, 09 July 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Greenjulius, on 09 July 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

If your goal is only to win on assault, I completely agree. Lights make great mechs on an assault map. But what if you play skirmish? Are you just screwed to be the guy that watches things and plinks? I see people posting that they do fine in their ECM 2xERLL 3L Ravens, but not much from other lights who are stuck with brawling weapons. Or worse yet, stuck with slow lights. IE; Clan lights, Panthers, Urbanmechs, etc.

Another problem comes in if you care about c-bills... at all. Light mechs can't fight any decent medium, heavy or assault pilot now that they pop with 1-2 good vomits. I took out my laser vomit Executioner and was popping lights with no trouble, at all ranges. Fun for me, but not the lights, I'm sure.

There is now nearly no light that can be called a fighting light, except for fighting other lights.

I know that PGI is going to give "role warfare" another go, but I highly doubt they are going to come up with something that solves the existential crisis lights are in now.

And your point about the Hellbringer not being able to flank as well as a light... What are you comparing it too; the Adder, Kitfox or Mist Lynx? We all know that the difference in speeds is 17.8kph. 89.1 to 106.9. The Mist Lynx doesn't count because it's terrible. That makes clan lights pathetic. The Ice Ferret does clan lights better than clan lights.

So that means I'm going back to my easy crutch clan heavies. As if I really just wanted to keep playing my OP Loki every time I play MWO.

you have some good points.

1) CB/XP generation for light is soft. This is not limited to lights though. Since damage and kills count for so much, they are the root the issue. It just happens that lights do less damage.IMO the fix for this is role selection. Select your role when you drop and get CB/XP based upon that role.

2) HB vs other clan lights: Good points, and even wrorse if you compare a Scrow to the clan lights. But that does not mean that escorting is impossible. The KF and ML especially are good for that (4 ML is an amazing escort/force multiplier). The IFR is actually a pretty awesome escort mech right now due to the armor buffs. (yea, it is a medium, but it plays like a light). The adder...well it has never been good and will never be good IMO.


In the end, outside of CW, there is little in the way of value for light mechs overall. Im not disagreeing. I am just saying that it is not as bad as everyone else seems to think. And wonky HSR is/was not the answer.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 July 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

I really love how the hit reg fixes have completely debunked the "FS9's have broken hit boxes!!" crowd.

Not completely. I went up against a Fs in a streak crow last night. 2 volleys of 4xssrm6 and he was yellow and orange armor. That is simply not feasible.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Hmm, do I dare say it?

Another game, 633 dmg and wiht CERPPC of all weapons. 3k, 4a, win, survive, 130K base, 227K Prem+(I)(80% bonus). Things actually seemed to be ok this time. Almost seems like they have enough velocity to hit decently, esp on a Warhawk, near 1400ms. Actually killed and component wacked a few Adders. Unloading, chain firing into a Catapult, killed inside of like 3 rounds of 4. Only derp moment was a stripped jager with red stripped everything survived a volley of like 6....2 were poorly aimed and me just being, aww yeah, red, kill it, kill it!

BUt 3 games now, hit reg seems decent enough.


but GODDAMMNIT! THis game has been CTD like mad.....

2 times just in that match described there, right at the start......before the teams board even showed and once as soon as I relogged. 2 times in Training grounds river city, by the Jenner, crossed the rocks off its field after killing it and CTD. THen 1 more(for 3) down by the bridge near the Stalker. Had it crash earlier on TG Crimson dorkin around with I think with my SCR. Dear god..../repair tool inc?

Or is CTD PGI's good hit reg balancing nerf?!

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 09 July 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bush Hopper, on 09 July 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

Jup, there are people outside who cannot even keep a Panther in the sight of a TW. Sorry, but that was not your skill but rather the ineptitude of the TW player. However, do you really want to base your argument on that skill level (or rather the lack of skill)? Seriously?

The point of some people here was anyway:
1. You can get out of the LoF from a heavy for a short time but the time is simply too short considering the amount of firepower it can throw at you in one salvo (sidenote: this is actually the reason why the heavy queue is so bloated - you do not need to fear lights thanks to your mobility and rival the firepower of most assaults. If that's not a sweet spot, I dunno)

2. With the improved hitreg (a really good thing) the lights got even more fragile. Plus the TTK went lower across the board and it is debatable if not too much firepower is flying around.

3. Too bad that heavies and assaults are not always so dumb and are alone. If you consider 1. and 2. and that another mech can take a pot shot at you while your light is engaging a heavy..well...you take so much damage that you are soon out of the game even if you make it out of the situation alive.


It may be coincidence but I see more and more light mechs with ranged weaponry. Heck, even a FS with a large laser. I think that speaks volumes

I can do it to good players in Heavys and Assaults in my Raven, Spider, Urby, Panther, Locust, etc, it's called being a good Light pilot and knowing how to use your size and speed to your advantage. I've NEVER been one to go face to face with a larger Mech in a Light, TT and all the other MW titles that was always just a suicide move. In MWO, it's been the standard tactic of most Light pilots since CB. Not mine, never did it, still play my Lights like I've always played them for over 30 years now, only come at bigger Mechs from behind, I haven't seen a Heavy or Assault in MWO that can match even my Lights in speed typically, that Panther was an exception, not even Basics yet, had the wrong engine it in so it's really much slower than it should have been, but still fast enough to keep out of the weapons of most Heavys and Assaults even so. I don't do the circle jerk that most Lights do, that's stupid, you constantly run into the target's guns, who the hell does that willingly? Oh, right, 99% of the Lights in MWO do that.

Sorry, I drive Lights plenty, I do well in them, they aren't that hard to keep out of harms way if you aren't playing like a mini-Assault as so many Lights pilots have been doing in MWO since CB and so many are STILL doing now. Some people are whining, a lot, because they've always played mini-Assault and now they can't. I make more in my Lights than I do in anything else usually, they are money makers when you play them as a Light and not a mini-Assault. Again, too many Light pilots think of them as mini-Assaults, that is the problem and always has been, now it's been fixed and they realize, oh wow, they suck! I am still having a blast in my Lights, still doing just fine in them, better actually since more of my hits register now on OTHER Lights!

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 July 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I am still having a blast in my Lights, still doing just fine in them, better actually since more of my hits register now on OTHER Lights!

Well Kristov you have an edge. You're experienced with lights from earlier games where being stupid in a light meant literally instant death.

[Greenjulius]

Sprouticus, on 09 July 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

you have some good points.

1) CB/XP generation for light is soft. This is not limited to lights though. Since damage and kills count for so much, they are the root the issue. It just happens that lights do less damage.IMO the fix for this is role selection. Select your role when you drop and get CB/XP based upon that role.

2) HB vs other clan lights: Good points, and even wrorse if you compare a Scrow to the clan lights. But that does not mean that escorting is impossible. The KF and ML especially are good for that (4 ML is an amazing escort/force multiplier). The IFR is actually a pretty awesome escort mech right now due to the armor buffs. (yea, it is a medium, but it plays like a light). The adder...well it has never been good and will never be good IMO.


In the end, outside of CW, there is little in the way of value for light mechs overall. Im not disagreeing. I am just saying that it is not as bad as everyone else seems to think. And wonky HSR is/was not the answer.

Wow... I'm just not used to someone who provides counterpoints like an adult on these forums. Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

The combo of the Scrow and HBR definitely invalidates and does everything that Adders and Kitfoxes can do, minus jump jets. It makes me sad, as before the HBR was released, my Kitfoxes still felt like the had a purpose. The SCat will only make things worse by having a slightly higher tonnage, grown up Kitfox that does everything better. Hell, it will even jump better. 70m jump for the Scat with 6 jump jets vs only 52 meters with 6 JJ in the Kitfox. Not to mention more armor, more weapon tonnage, more hardpoints, and torso mounted ECM and weapon hardpoints. The only thing going for the kitfox is size, and that's even dissapointing. It was unanimously voted the light in most need of resizing.

You're right about the Adder. It's meant to be a "fighting light" and it fails miserably at it. It's so mediocre, it makes me excited to run locusts, even when they explode when sneezed on now.

The Mist Lynx is really a poor light any way we shake it unfortunately... It's cursed with Poordubs and only 6.5 tons of podspace, so it runs hot with almost everything except 4xSPL which it runs "okay." Zero torso/CT hardpoints, forced CAP, forced 6xJJ... The poor Mist Stynx really got the shaft.

Did I mention it's arms, the only location for weapon hardpoints, are huge, and usually get blown off by the end of a match? This results in a sad, Frankenstein mutant; a pathetic, flailing, flying torso with no means to interact with the world except to fly as high as possible in an attempt to end it's miserable existence by crashing down into the earth to destroy it's sad little legs?

Edited by Greenjulius, 09 July 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 09 July 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Well Kristov you have an edge. You're experienced with lights from earlier games where being stupid in a light meant literally instant death.

So with hit reg working better, does chasing a squirrel mean that .50cal used to hunt it will actualy kill it? muwhahaha.