159 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

And what would you suggest to help that? Blanket nerfing everything without adjusting the build rules?


Notice this thread is just PGI PLZ NERF without suggestions.



And the Summoner loses 2 tons outright because of Ferro instead of Endo (which is bettter in every scenario). That would make it better.

I can use the Nova to great effect; doesn't change the fact 3 tons of quirk armour still make it a fragile robot.
In that tourney, the only robot it beat was the Vindicator; Locusts and Commando's beat it.


cXL is the only thing that prevents it from being outright garbage; a Hunchback can carry more guns with a STD engine. The giant STs (along with the giant CT) would make it suicide for an isXL, that's very true.


Blanket nerfing the Lynx and Fridge are hardly good options. Honestly, not much can help the Fridge...5th hardpoint helped at least, as long as you're not the Prime.



As for your wisdom...you've yet to show any. You have not suggested anything to help balance things, you've just stated CLAMS OP...except for these. And those. And that one. Let's nerf them all.

I can't help but feel you're a very mediocre pilot with what you've been saying, and I don't believe you could teach my anything about the game. You'd absorb CSJ due to poor numbers.

NO I said buff IS. It is different.

Basic IS tech needs a blanket buff, and quirks need to be reigned in a little bit to compensate. Right now IS mechs are largely defined by quirks, and they still struggle to keep up. Quirks are too hard of a system to balance effectively. There will always be terrible internal balance on the IS side as long as quirks are in effect, and overquirked mechs have only served as an excuse to keep vanilla IS tech worthless.

What if I said the thunderbolt for example, is in a good place, and all IS mechs should be roughly as 'dangerous' in their intended role?

Edit: yes this means breaking lore in (more) areas to make IS tech = Clan tech in terms of power level. Sorry, I know that isn't canonical, but PGI decided on 12v12 so we HAVE to find a system where 12 = 12

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 July 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

And what would you suggest to help that? Blanket nerfing everything without adjusting the build rules?

There are clan mechanics that are overpowered by nature provided they aren't put into an already gimped chassis. So yes, blanket nerfs.

I don't care if some clan mechs are garbage when it comes to broken equipment. Commandos are garbage. Trebuchets are garbage. When it comes to broken equipment specific mechs can't hold back needed nerfs.

[Nightmare1]

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

Let's get some things straight first before you read any further...

1) If you do not think clan mechs are overpowered, you sir/mam are completely oblivious and should seek serious medical attention.

If I can do this to the overpowered Clan Mechs, do I still need medical attention?


*Cough* That's an Inner Sphere Enforcer I'm piloting...against four Clanners...in a 4v1 showdown for the match win...

Clanners lost, I'm pleased to say.

Mechs and weapons are not OP. Pilots are OP. Clans alone are not overpowered and they most certainly do not need additional nerfs.

Personally, I would like to see them buffed considerably and a 10 v 12 mode initiated. Monetary "nudging" to make Clan pilots behave more like the Lore by rewarding single combat and punishing group combat would also help with balance.

Frankly, if Clan Mechs are kicking your butt, then I think you're doing something wrong. The only place they seem to have a decided advantage is in CW due to their weapon boating and uniform speeds. But who plays CW anyways?

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

2) BT/Mech lore cannot dictate mech competitiveness in a game where a primary mode has two sides fighting against one another with everything else still being equal. If we want to go to lore land, then how about the IS get more mechs to drop with then? The lore excuse is a convenient argument for clanners that are in power to stay there.

See above.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

3) This is a call for balance. Why? Because playing a game that isn't equal isn't fun. I don't care if that ruins your clanner lore dream fantasy. Hell, it doesn't even have to be exactly equal, I like a challenge, but things are too far apart. The current situation is analogous to an MLB team on steroids vs. an asthmatic high school team. Its not fun to play.

See above

Pssst! Up your game!

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

4) PGI has the right to write their own page in mech lore and improve upon the foundation of the game and should do so. Anyone who says otherwise is, in my opinion, a pretentious ass.

Says the pretentious ***?

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

Whatever PGI just did to clan ballistics was a mistake. I don't care if they sucked before for you, they were supposed to. Every ******* weapon system clans get to have is half the tonnage of IS, if not exactly half, it is close to it or has some other benefit. With that, there was the notion that something must suck to balance it out, extra heat, longer duration, etc... It seems that this is no longer the case for ballistics. Fix it, period.

Clearly, you know nothing of MechWarrior or BattleTech. Every game to date has featured powerful Clans with superior weaponry. Simply because you personally do not like it is not enough reason to break one of the pillars of the series. Adapt or die.

Personally speaking, I choose the former of those two options, but you're free to keep choosing the latter one if that feeds your victimization complex.

...Oh yeah, you stopped numbering your paragraphs here. I think we're witnessing a rage spiral given the decreasing communicability of your text and the increasing entropy of your post.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

Fix the damned stormcrow already, I'm tired of this medium mech being such a pain in the ass. The thing is unhittable half the time due to ****** hitboxes and not recognizing damage. I'm not sure how many times people need to say this about this mech before it gets fixed. If you can't fix it soon, take it out of the game, or at least CW.

Pro-tip: Sweep the legs.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

While you're working on the stormcrow, have a go over of the ice ferret. GCGB actually uses a tactic of bringing a whole ferret wave because they are broken as well.

...
...
...
Okay, if the Ice Ferret is OP for you, then you don't have normal problems.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

If Inner Sphere weaponry is to remain heavier, damage should be increased. No quirking, no cheeky antics, just give us more damage so that we can stay on par with clan mechs.

My IS Mechs will already dust most Clan Mechs in a toe-to-toe battle. I'm not too keen on making it even easier to do so; there is a limit to how many baby seals I'm willing to club.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

I also want to be able to blow one side torso with an XL and still live, OR have clanners blow up with from only one torso.

Deal with it dude. Clans are supposed to be superior. With half the Clan chassis of each Mech locked down, there's precious little to goad anyone into buying them since they lack the versatility of their IS counterparts.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

I want IS gauss ammo to weigh less than clans'. Increase it to 15-20 rounds per ton, that would make more IS bring gauss and even the field against the clans who get several tons extra to put in just because their guns weigh less.

"I want, I want..." I'm sensing a pattern here.

Once again, Core Pillar here, you can't yank it out. Besides, Gauss is one of the previous few pinpoint weapons the Clans have, whereas the IS is drowning in them.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

Give us more arm hardpoints that can actually fit gauss, because anything in the chest is a death sentence because you have to run an XL engine in order for the mech to be weight viable.

...You do know that any arm hardpoint on a Heavy or Assault Mech can mount a Gauss, right? It's not like there are only certain Mechs that can do it. Also, you don't have to run the Excel to be "weight viable." I'm sensing a lack of understanding and skill coming from this region over here...

*Gestures towards the OP*

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

The raven should also go 192 kph again. IS needs better lights, you took away our light rush ability in CW anyway. And by better, yes, dare I say it, better than clan mechs.

Entropy and babble here. You want the Mech to go faster, because Light rushes are out now. Somehow, this will make it better than the Clan Mechs despite the fact that the increased speed no longer provides any real advantage in CW...

...But IS Mechs already go a lot faster than the Clan Mechs. There are also hit-reg limitations that prevent Mechs from moving faster than 170 kph at the moment. Please stop asking for the Moon.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

There should also be modules for other various things on weapons and mechs. Range and cooldown are a good start, but how about other things like velocity and heat generation?

Hmmm...a sane moment? Spooky!

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

IS narc should cancel ECM in a significant radius ~200m.

ECM is already underpowered and only good at mid range. With the proliferation of BAP, NARC, TAG, counter ECM, and UAVs, it's nearly impossible to use ECM at close ranges effectively. Mid range is tricky and long range is about the only "easy" way to use ECM. I don't think we need more counters to it; just smarter pilots.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

I'd also enjoy a projectile explosive that uses the narc mechanic in that it sticks to mechs, but then explodes after a duration.

So...a dumbfired LRM that sticks for a while and then explodes? Where is the application for this in MWO???

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

All consumables should be able to be taken twice if desired.

Hmmm...AC/20 quirked KGC with two AC/20 Cooldown modules? Naw, I'll pass...

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

This is all heresy necessary, but it must be done in order for this game to grow in popularity and viability for new players. I'm also sure other people will have great ideas to contribute as well. Please join the discussion.

Somehow, I doubt very much that any of this is "necessary" for the game to become popular. Some of the key points of BT/MW is the Lore, culture, and history of the series. What you are proposing would cripple some of these key components, driving away a very dedicated fan base in the hope that some lightweight Steamies might be able to replace them (I highly doubt they will). If that happens, you'll see a Hawken-style death spiral.

Let's work on core mechanics first. The recent HSR patch was a nice piece of work as was the beautifully remastered River City. What we need is better game stability, better variety, and new content; not the neutering of the Clans and destruction of BT/MW Series staples.

[Alec Braca]

Rhaythe, on 09 July 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate, that's essentially what every Mechwarrior single-player game has ever done. Each one attempts to tell a story in the BattleTech universe in some fashion and, therefore, ends up writing a page in BT lore. Hell, even MechAssault is listed on sarna at this point.

SSshhhhhh.....we shall not speak the name MechAssault for it is heresy.....

[Gas Guzzler]

Most Clan mechs that folks consider garbage are not that bad.

"Nopeva"? Actually pretty damn solid. Either cSPL or 2 ER PPC. I choose the latter. Compare that to a Treb.
"Fridge"? 5 cER MLs is nothing to scoff at on something running 142. Compare to Vindicator..
"Suckoner"? I meant, its no Timber Wolf, but 4 ER MLs (with some minor quirks) and a large ballistic is not "garbage".
"Gargles"? If not spicy enough, equip more cSPLs, up to 12.
Mist Lynx? Yeah... its 25 tons, pretty fragile and weapons in the arms.. could prly use some more durability quirks
Adder is working out better with bonus E hardpoint

None of these mechs are that bad, and all can conform to the laser or gauss vomit meta. Nova does ER PPCs very well with the velocity boost they just got.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 09 July 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

There are clan mechanics that are overpowered by nature provided they aren't put into an already gimped chassis. So yes, blanket nerfs.

I don't care if some clan mechs are garbage when it comes to broken equipment. Commandos are garbage. Trebuchets are garbage. When it comes to broken equipment specific mechs can't hold back needed nerfs.

That's an altogether terrible method.

I would have expected more thought from you.


Here's a thought: Return ERML to 5 heat (MPL similar treatment), damage 6, cLPL to 10 dam and 9 heat (arbitrary values, lower in both cases than present)


Unlock swapping for Ferro to Endo, for the mechs that are gimped by construction. Allocate Endo and Ferro slots for mechs that don't have both, and allow them to take the weight saving equipment. Mr Gargles went from 20 to 24 tons of pod space.

Nova could actually bring a Ballistic and brace of smalls with 19.5 tons of pod space.

Warhawk gains ~2 tons for swapping, but lacks crit slots for both.

Keep slots static and place them in spots which would prevent problematic builds.

Engine swapping is the most valuable thing most of the bad Clams need, but we won't get that for awhile. Give Mr Gargles an XL375(+7.5 tons) and remove 6 heatsinks, he goes to 37.5 tons of pod space, nearly twice what he has now. He'll remain sad but better at 24(+6 with heatsinks).



Weapons with less damage hurt hardpoint starved robots, but less heat also helps the PoorDub laden lights. Brings alphas down a half to full dozen points. Perhaps a touch down on the cSPL (it's just great) but to be seen. Short range isn't exactly where the complaints come from.



Give and take, where the bad robots get back some of what they lose. Myth Lynx could lose the probe. Not blanket nerf without helping the mechs which CURRENTLY need help.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

snip

Unlocking endo/ferro also buffs the Nova and Hellbringer, two mechs that don't really need it. Reducing heat is more important than reducing damage, and will likely give anything with a large amount of heatsinks the ability to fire another alpha. The Daishi, specifically.

Engine swapping will cause mechs like the Timberwolf and Daishi to again be more potent that they currently are.

Your solutions also do nothing to address clan imbalances concerning speed, hardpoint inflation, and survivability. Which is the cause of the powercreep we've had for the past year, and the reason we had quirks to begin with.

An obvious first step would to be reduce speed once you lose an ST. It would also be nice if PGI wouldn't be so afraid to reduce heat capacity on problem chassis.

[Dingo Battler]

Play mainly Clan mechs and OP has a point, although greatly exaggerated. A few points:

1) The problem with blanket nerfs is that many clan mechs are pretty bad. All of their lights, suckoner, gargs, dog,ferret, etc. Any blanket nerfs will make these mechs extinct

2) The top 3 mechs happen to be clan mechs, the EBJ, TBR and SCR, and they're significantly better than any other mech. All the laser duration did to me is force me to boat more pulses (which I like even more than ERML pre-nerf), and help me be more conservative with heat. I'm a TBR pilot, and in all honesty, if its anything they need less of, its pod space and free tonnage. These 3 mechs can boat more firepower than some IS assaults...

3) IS has too many unusable mechs - Pretty much any tier4-5 IS mech on metamech is unusable.

4) IS players that follow the meta has no problems. Stalkers, King Crabs, Grasshoppers, Ravens all do not have problems.

Ultimately, the problems is not IS VS Clans, but good mechs VS bad mechs

What needs to be done is not blanket nerfs, but adjustments to each individual mech. Either nerf the top ones, or buff the bottom ones. I think buffing the bottom ones is a better way out. Instead of quirks, which pigeonholes mechs into specific weaponary, what they really need is more spare tonnage and pod space.

[Alec Braca]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 July 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

I believe (and i could be wrong) that is due to Some of the Mechs being imported to the Lore. Like the Blood Asp(?)

How about...
Home Clans?!?

That would be nice but MWO just doesn't have the numbers to support that.

On another note: Isn't this suppose to be correct?

Clan mechs have omni-tech so that 1 chassis could fill a specific role on the fly.
IS mechs (before omni-tech) are primarily designed for a specific task that limits customization.

Solution... MORE IS MECHS MWAHAHAHA!!!

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 09 July 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

Unlocking endo/ferro also buffs the Nova and Hellbringer, two mechs that don't really need it. Reducing heat is more important than reducing damage, and will likely give anything with a large amount of heatsinks the ability to fire another alpha. The Daishi, specifically.

Engine swapping will cause mechs like the Timberwolf and Daishi to again be more potent that they currently are.

Your solutions also do nothing to address clan imbalances concerning speed, hardpoint inflation, and survivability. Which is the cause of the powercreep we've had for the past year, and the reason we had quirks to begin with.

An obvious first step would to be reduce speed once you lose an ST. It would also be nice if PGI wouldn't be so afraid to reduce heat capacity on problem chassis.

Already noted the engine earlier, multiple times in this thread. On a slightly grander scale.
http://mwomercs.com/...e-normalization


I said engine swapping won't happen. Will the Nova be better than the Crow? With worse hitboxes (making it far less durable, even with more IS+A), slower (TT it could have been build with Endo and a XL300, costing it a whole 3 crit slots and a half ton)
It's just poor construction. You could at least fix part of that.

[Greenjulius]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

*tons of reasonable suggestions in post*

Unlock swapping for Ferro to Endo, for the mechs that are gimped by construction. Allocate Endo and Ferro slots for mechs that don't have both, and allow them to take the weight saving equipment. Mr Gargles went from 20 to 24 tons of pod space.

Weapons with less damage hurt hardpoint starved robots, but less heat also helps the PoorDub laden lights. Brings alphas down a half to full dozen points. Perhaps a touch down on the cSPL (it's just great) but to be seen. Short range isn't exactly where the complaints come from.

Give and take, where the bad robots get back some of what they lose. Myth Lynx could lose the probe. Not blanket nerf without helping the mechs which CURRENTLY need help.

I completely agree with this. Reasonable changes that reduce the godlike level of the timber, while raising the usability of all the sub-par clan mechs. You know what that would bring... MUCH NEEDED VARIETY TO MATCHES. Also, removal of negative quirks on the Timber and Stormcrow, and testing to see if they still dominate.

The weapon damage being lower would allow us to reduce quirks on IS mechs, and increase TTK across the board. This is something I very much support. I'm tired of mid-range+ 50-70 point alphas dominating the game. Even preventing tanking of IS MPLs needs more thought.

See? We can all come to a common ground. We just need to figure out how to lift up the bad mechs without making any one mech too powerful. Otherwise you'll get the TDR-9S or WVR-6K from earlier this year. No one wants to repeat those abominations.

Edited by Greenjulius, 09 July 2015 - 04:54 PM.

[Tom Sawyer]

We all can rant. We all can rave. But as Sean pointed out the powers that be are behind the scene doing SOMETHING.

Will it fix the perceived problems only time will time.

But one thing never changes. And its not war. Its posting on forums to voice your opinion

[GeistHrafn]

Despite some great points in here, the personal attacks have unfortunately derailed much of the thread past the point of no return.

Off we go to k-town.

Edited by Rhazien, 10 July 2015 - 04:04 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

LordBraxton, on 09 July 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

The idea that clan mechs run hot is a myth. My heat bar goes higher on each alpha, that's for sure, but it also dissipates much quicker than my IS builds, due to low tonnage weapons and 2 slot DHS... the fact that clans have super engines helps too, since they get the cooling bonus (all the bonuses) of an XL with none of the cons

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Necromantion]

VorpalAnvil, on 10 July 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Obvious troll is obvious.

Naw hes just an idiot with half understanding of the things he spews jargon about on the forums. Dont confuse stupidity for trolling just like the OP of this thread.

[MarineTech]

So... What's up in here?

Ohhhhhhhh. Balance.

Birds can balance.

There. All balanced.

Now it's time for tacos.

[VorpalAnvil]

[timff8]

Above mentions to adhering to lore in regards to clans (which I'm aware is not necessarily a large percentage of participants here but is represented) frustrate me.

The idea irritates me not in the sense that the fluff is bad, but that it wasn't written with MWO in mind. The lore can be used as a jumping-off point but can't be considered sacred when you're trying to adapt to a different medium. Even if the end result of attempted balance comes out with the same mechanics, starting from old rules designed for a different sort of game is a poor approach; I wouldn't build a trading card game and try to adapt the rules from a fighting game like Mortal Kombat just because there are mechanics that simply don't translate well.

[Nightmare1]

timff8, on 12 September 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

Above mentions to adhering to lore in regards to clans (which I'm aware is not necessarily a large percentage of participants here but is represented) frustrate me.

The idea irritates me not in the sense that the fluff is bad, but that it wasn't written with MWO in mind. The lore can be used as a jumping-off point but can't be considered sacred when you're trying to adapt to a different medium. Even if the end result of attempted balance comes out with the same mechanics, starting from old rules designed for a different sort of game is a poor approach; I wouldn't build a trading card game and try to adapt the rules from a fighting game like Mortal Kombat just because there are mechanics that simply don't translate well.

The same is true of TT.

[timff8]

I would not suggest that a game I have never played has perfect balance, or any sort of balance. If the formula of attempting to build a game directly off of fluff has failed in TT, then we have a precedent for my statements; you build off of fluff you get overpowered units because the fluff demands it, and balance takes a backseat to following some guy's ideas of what could in theory be cool. If we're borrowing from a game with bad balance already this only makes MWO a second-generation adaptation, honoring not only the fluff but the TT gameplay as secondary fluff.

Edited by timff8, 13 September 2015 - 08:55 PM.