159 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

You forget they won't care and keep bitching about quirks and how the firestarter is broken. But you proved my point none the less. I was actually giving them too much credit...

If they just fixed two things I'd be fine. The ******* stormcrow needs to die faster, and torsos need to blow up XL engine mechs or have some penalty.

And Clam Whiners will ignore the other aspects. We've been through this before. You've yet to provide something constructive.


There is presently a minor penalty: all heatsinks in the engine are cut to 80% effectiveness.


They're so tanky because they have a small CT, and all damage from a ST>CT transfer is reduced by 60%. An AC10 deals 4 damage instead of 10.


Like a Stalker, but less armour, faster, and has a skip when it jumps.

[Lostdragon]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

This just isn't true. At all.

It's not true for ERPPCs, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

It's not true for gauss, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

It's not true for SRMs, same as above.

It's not true for SSRMS, same as above.

It's not true for LBs, same as above (not very important, both IS and clan LBs suck balls, but still.)

It's partly true for lasers, but clan lasers are still way better.

I admit it's true for LRMs and Autocannons (probably, haven't really seen how strong they are since the latest patch)

So out of 8 weapon types it's only really true for 2 of them.

It's definitely not true for equipment.

Clan engines are a straight upgrade

Clan ECM, AP, DHS, Endo, Ferro and so on are all straight upgrades.

A few things, like JJs, are equal.

Quirks are what supposedly balances all this, I think they do a pretty poor job with it in most cases and are a super bad way to balance in the first place, but at least they are supposed to.

But saying that there is a disadvantage for every advantage is just not true.

It COULD be MADE true, I wish it was. Then we wouldn't need quirks, and that would be great.

Ok, so there was definitely some hyperbole in that post, but for the weapons that matter the Clans have an advantage and a disadvantage. For the weapons and equipment you listed the primary advantage is lower weight, which is somewhat offset by clans having a lot of locked equipment and not getting to put Endo and Ferro on mechs that don't come with it by default. The IS ERPPC should probably have the heat lowered to maybe 12, which would offset the bonus damage the CERPPC gets.

The IS has no equivalent equipment to Clan Streaks, but the bigger ones have pretty long cooldowns and boating them really makes you a pony with one trick that isn't very good except against Lights. The IS can boat SRM2s and light hunt, the difference is they get DPS instead of burst.

Clan XLs are definitely better than IS equivalents, but that comes at the cost of being locked. The under-engined Clan lights really suffer from this and have a hard time making themselves useful due to it. For mechs like the TBR and SCR that have pretty optimal engine sizes it is no big deal, but I think the Nova, Kit Fox, Adder, and Mist Lynx would all be greatly improved if they could mount a bigger engine.

If Clan mechs had unlocked engines and upgrades (endo and FF) then I think you would have a real point, but they don't. The Clan mechs that get all the attention are the ones that already have these things and really they are the only ones that are potentially problematic because they have no downsides.

I think if all Clan mechs were opened up for full customization like IS mechs and some numbers were tweaked (weapon damage, heat, duration, cooldown, etc.) it would put all the Clan mechs on a more level playing field and you'd see less TBRs, SCRs, HBRs, etc. because other mechs would have a lot more competitive build options. For the Clan weapons that are lighter than their equivalent IS counterpart you then add in a disadvantage, which would be really easy as it is just changing the xml and not game mechanics.

[Sjorpha]

Hotthedd, on 09 July 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

You are right, but remember that unless you are talking about the IIc 'mechs, Endo and Ferro are not optional for clans. Either you have it or you don't. Also Clan XLs are better, but you cannot change ratings.

I believe that is what is meant by advantages/disadvantages as far as those things.

Endo and Ferro should be switchable for clans IMO, it would be much easier to balance both the upgrades towards their IS counterparts and it would reduce the hit or miss nature of clan mech viability. But in exchange IS endo and ferro should get something to make them as good as the clan versions. My personal preference would be to have endo and ferro give a penalty to internal structure plus increased hit chance, and have that penalty be slightly higher for clan mechs (yes there would be penalties for both factions, because endo and ferro should be balanced versus standard armour and structure as well)

You forgot fixed heatsinks , I want to unfix all heatsinks on clan mechs, but in exchange IS heatsinks should get something to make them as good as clan sinks. Also internal engine heatsinks should always be double so that external single heatsinks become viable.

The fixed engine I think is a reasonable trade to get omnipods, so that can stay.

Edited by Sjorpha, 09 July 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Endo and Ferro should be switchable for clans IMO, it would be much easier to balance both the upgrades towards their IS counterparts and it would reduce the hit or miss nature of clan mech viability. But in exchange IS endo and ferro should get something to make them as good as the clan versions. My personal preference would be to have endo and ferro give a penalty to internal structure plus increased hit chance, and have that penalty be slightly higher for clan mechs (yes there would be penalties for both factions, because endo and ferro should be balanced versus standard armour and structure as well)

You forgot fixed heatsinks , I want to unfix all heatsinks on clan mechs, but in exchange IS heatsinks should get something to make them as good as clan sinks. Also internal engine heatsinks should always be double so that external single heatsinks become viable.

The fixed engine I think is a reasonable trade to get omnipods, so that can stay.

I think the borked heat system we've been dealing with for a long time is the source of a lot of the game's woes to begin with. If you had a lower fixed heat cap with high dissipation it would make it impractical to fire a lot of lasers at once, forcing either more mixed loadouts, chainfire, or some combination thereof. This would reduce TTK and make things a lot more forgiving while still rewarding players with good aim and heat management.

Edit: It would also negate the need for the abomination that is Ghost Heat.

Edited by Lostdragon, 09 July 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Endo and Ferro should be switchable for clans IMO, it would be much easier to balance both the upgrades towards their IS counterparts and it would reduce the hit or miss nature of clan mech viability. But in exchange IS endo and ferro should get something to make them as good as the clan versions. My personal preference would be to have endo and ferro give a penalty to internal structure plus increased hit chance, and have that penalty be slightly higher for clan mechs (yes there would be penalties for both factions, because endo and ferro should be balanced versus standard armour and structure as well)

You forgot fixed heatsinks , I want to unfix all heatsinks on clan mechs, but in exchange IS heatsinks should get something to make them as good as clan sinks. Also internal engine heatsinks should always be double so that external single heatsinks become viable.

The fixed engine I think is a reasonable trade to get omnipods, so that can stay.

All heatsinks are the same....Clan heatsinks dont cool better.

You have Trudubs and Poordubs but that is based on construction rules and even IS mechs get boned there from time to time.

You cannot have Single and Double Heatsinks on a mech...its one or the other.

[Sjorpha]

Lostdragon, on 09 July 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Ok, so there was definitely some hyperbole in that post...

Thanks for the response. Your points abut endo, ferro and engines I believe is answered in my response to hotthedd above. Good suggestion for the IS ERPPC.

[WarHippy]

Sean Lang, on 09 July 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

This is already in the works, was talked about on the latest Town Hall Meeting w/Russ Bullock! Details I'm sure will be released soon, as he said play tests on the public test server would be happening probably in July!

Lets just hope we get enough time to test things out properly so that both IS and Clan mechs feel good to play, and by feel good to play I'm talking about more than just feeling powerful. Right now I barely touch my Clan mechs because they just don't feel very efficient or enjoyable regardless of each chassis individual power level.

[Doktor Schmerz]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

And Clam Whiners will ignore the other aspects. We've been through this before. You've yet to provide something constructive.


There is presently a minor penalty: all heatsinks in the engine are cut to 80% effectiveness.


They're so tanky because they have a small CT, and all damage from a ST>CT transfer is reduced by 60%. An AC10 deals 4 damage instead of 10.


Like a Stalker, but less armour, faster, and has a skip when it jumps.

No they are so tanky because they are ******* broken. Period.

[Necromantion]

Wolfhagen, on 09 July 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

You forgot the 12 Mist Lynx RoflStomp.
So PGI should better nerf the much overpowered Lynx also.

best regards

Wolfhagen
GCGB

I laughed really hard.

Sean Lang, on 09 July 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

This is already in the works, was talked about on the latest Town Hall Meeting w/Russ Bullock! Details I'm sure will be released soon, as he said play tests on the public test server would be happening probably in July!

This worries me.

[Lostdragon]

DarthRevis, on 09 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

All heatsinks are the same....Clan heatsinks dont cool better.

You have Trudubs and Poordubs but that is based on construction rules and even IS mechs get boned there from time to time.

You cannot have Single and Double Heatsinks on a mech...its one or the other.

I think he was referring to Clan DHS taking 2 slots instead of 3 being the advantage, not cooling.

[GeistHrafn]

I really, truly don't get all the hoopla.
I am a merc, and our unit flip-flops back and forth between IS and Clans. I play both, in CW, and of my own accord in public queue. Everything is more balanced than it's ever been, I die just as much in my clan mechs as in my IS. My scores are relatively close in CW regardless of faction.
Despite all that, PGI is revisiting balance!

So how does this thread make it to six pages all while I'm taking a nap? Insanity lol.

[Sjorpha]

DarthRevis, on 09 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

All heatsinks are the same....Clan heatsinks dont cool better.

2 crits versus 3 is an advantage, a pretty big one too. It is the clan mechs ability to boat so many heatsinks that makes laser vomit so strong. The size difference should stay but IS version should get some perk that matches up to it.

Quote

You have Trudubs and Poordubs but that is based on construction rules and even IS mechs get boned there from time to time.

Yes, bad design. Should be changed.

Quote

You cannot have Single and Double Heatsinks on a mech...its one or the other.

I'm not suggesting being able to have both, just that the engines internal heatsinks should have a fixed cooling rate not affected by the upgrade. If the DHS upgrade only affected external heatsinks that would balance them with single heatsinks and SHS would be a viable choice on some IS mechs, which would be great because SHS is currently unplayable except on dual gauss jagers.

[Mcgral18]

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

No they are so tanky because they are ******* broken. Period.

So, you're going to ignore WHY they are so tanky, and keep crying CLAMS OP?


You're supposed to understand why things are the way they are when analysing things, then fix that. Not cry without any solution.

[pbiggz]

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

No they are so tanky because they are ******* broken. Period.

see? This is why people are roasting you. That's not an argument, that's an opinion which you have not backed up.

[Kain Demos]

Necromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

I laughed really hard.


This worries me.

Me too. History just isn't on their side here.

[LordBraxton]

The idea that clan mechs run hot is a myth. My heat bar goes higher on each alpha, that's for sure, but it also dissipates much quicker than my IS builds, due to low tonnage weapons and 2 slot DHS... the fact that clans have super engines helps too, since they get the cooling bonus (all the bonuses) of an XL with none of the cons

[Doktor Schmerz]

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

So, you're going to ignore WHY they are so tanky, and keep crying CLAMS OP?


You're supposed to understand why things are the way they are when analysing things, then fix that. Not cry without any solution.

Let me put this in terms that you probably will disagree with anyway. The model is broken for the mech. Hit registration is 60% at best. I do not mean 60% where I want it and then it splashes off. I mean 60% gets registered as damage to the mech anywhere. I have fought against SRCs long enough to know its true. This is a fact, much like the sky is blue. I don't know how many times I've rapped center mass on an idle SRC for it to do next to nothing. In fact I've had them overheat right in front of me and power back up as if nothing happened. Lasers and crows don't mix, ballistics seem to be the best because it forces the model to accept the damage.

But, I'm just some crazy guy, never having done CW or sucking so badly that I can't aim, so this whole argument I just made is invalid, or so the following posts will try to imply.

[Mcgral18]

LordBraxton, on 09 July 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

The idea that clan mechs run hot is a myth. My heat bar goes higher on each alpha, that's for sure, but it also dissipates much quicker than my IS builds, due to low tonnage weapons and 2 slot DHS... the fact that clans have super engines helps too, since they get the cooling bonus (all the bonuses) of an XL with none of the cons

There is no cooling bonus to engine mounted (not internal) heatsinks; they are still PoorDubs. My WubShee (below) has 10 TrueDubs and 6 PoorDubs in the CT (as does Mr Gargles). If that's what you mean.


IS mechs simply struggle to mount more than 20 (23 in my XL400 WubShee) due to actuators and legs being shut out.

[LordBraxton]

To be fair they just fixed hit-reg a lot, give it time. OP is right that clans are OP. OP just has all the wrong reasons for calling them OP. It's then engine. Having less options doesn't matter when your only option is something better than ANY option the other team has available.

Mcgral18, on 09 July 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

There is no cooling bonus to engine mounted (not internal) heatsinks; they are still PoorDubs. My WubShee (below) has 10 TrueDubs and 6 PoorDubs in the CT (as does Mr Gargles). If that's what you mean.


IS mechs simply struggle to mount more than 20 (23 in my XL400 WubShee) due to actuators and legs being shut out.

its the fact that you get a ton of extra slots for free. so if you want to boat energy, clans run cooler, cause you can fit WAY more heatsinks. We are on the same page, unless you think the 2 side-torso-to-kill factor isn't a massive advantage. cause I think it's a MASSIVE advantage, constantly understated by the clan community. Imagine trying to energy boat with a Standard 375...

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 July 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[Doktor Schmerz]

LordBraxton, on 09 July 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Having less options doesn't matter when your only option is something better than ANY option the other team has available.

Halleluiah