159 replies to this topic

[Doktor Schmerz]

Necromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Yep, notice how when I dissected his whole first post he had nothing to say to counter any of the counters that were made with anything at all never mind some attempt at something constructive.

I dont think its a troll though, just another ranting child on the forums.

You ignoramus, you didn't dissect anything. All you did was personally attack me and think you are some how smarter.

For the record, I am voicing my opinion so that I can be heard. So that the game can go the way I want it to, to be fun again. I never called for some theoretical fact finding mission. I've done that before and no one cares. Several months ago I wrote about almost everything that is factual in the argument. It was just mudslinging after the third post. Just like derpy necro keeps doing. In that post thread I even call the raven and firestarter broken. I chose to remain objective in that instance just as much as this one. I just wasn't as nice about it this time.

If one logically looks at all the factors with objectivity there is no way that one can call the gameplay even. Many people, including some clan players, in this thread have come to this conclusion and rightfully so. The clan extremists currently run this game by running their mouths on here and frankly I'm tired of it. Clan mechs were overpowered before they got rebuffed again. Why did they get buffed then? Because clanners were bitching, end of story. PGI is going to listen to who ever communicates more.

[Sjorpha]

shad0w4life, on 09 July 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Then you'd be in here raging about reduced rewards and cbills.

Again you 10 v 12 people have yet to come up with a solution to fixing the entire game around 10 v 12, it's just "Change it to 10 v 12 and done" without any thought at all to weapons changes, rewards, cbills.

10 v 12, clans would need to be back to original weapon damage, and guess what, that means a lot of peek-a-boo sniping for them...which would then lead to...More forum rage about lack of brawling!

First, when have I ever raged about anything at all?

Second, I'm not a "10 vs 12 person", I would be fine with any kind of balancing as long as it properly balances the factions. As long as it makes it a good game with two balanced but different factions I'd be happy.

Third, I have written quite extensively about solutions to different kinds of balancing, including asymmetric options (10 vs 12, tonnage difference etc), symmetric options (balancing tech, changing quirks and so on.), so no I'm not just throwing simple suggestions out.

What I'm saying is that PGI needs to choose a design and roll with it, either symmetric with equally powerful (but in different ways) mechs or with balance through IS having more numbers and tonnage.

It doesn't matter to me which route they go as long as they stop the current "have the cake and eat it" approach with a quirk system that just doesn't work very well.

[Necromantion]

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

You ignoramus, you didn't dissect anything. All you did was personally attack me and think you are some how smarter.

For the record, I am voicing my opinion so that I can be heard. So that the game can go the way I want it to, to be fun again. I never called for some theoretical fact finding mission. I've done that before and no one cares. Several months ago I wrote about almost everything that is factual in the argument. It was just mudslinging after the third post. Just like derpy necro keeps doing. In that post thread I even call the raven and firestarter broken. I chose to remain objective in that instance just as much as this one. I just wasn't as nice about it this time.

If one logically looks at all the factors with objectivity there is no way that one can call the gameplay even. Many people, including some clan players, in this thread have come to this conclusion and rightfully so. The clan extremists currently run this game by running their mouths on here and frankly I'm tired of it. Clan mechs were overpowered before they got rebuffed again. Why did they get buffed then? Because clanners were bitching, end of story. PGI is going to listen to who ever communicates more.

Other than the three times I inferred actually relatively politely that you were potentially incompetent due to the perspectives you shared I did not attack you.

I did however counter every single argument you brought forward. It was then you degenerated into personal attacks with things like "bring it", "you nancy" and the like.

Your views are not objective at all as you cannot even list off the repercussions of the changes you suggest. It is purely subjective as other people have pointed to as well beyond just me.

You are not logical, you are not rational, your posts have showed nothing but bias and frustration.

The buffing was because months ago Russ said that C-AC's were in a bad place and needed to be reworked, The un-nerfing to energy builds on the stormcrow and twolf was because nobody was playing them as energy builds anymore so they reduced the cooldown quirks a bit.

If you look at the forums the majority of the whining has been by IS players since CW started, when clans first came into the game it was definitely merited, however that is not the case anymore.

[Doktor Schmerz]

Hint, I never intended to win an un-winnable argument.

[Kain Demos]

Necromantion, on 09 July 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

If you look at the forums the majority of the whining has been by IS players since CW started, when clans first came into the game it was definitely merited, however that is not the case anymore.

This touches on what I believe to be one of hte main problems---the poor release of clan 'mechs will forever leave them with the taint of "wildly OP" no matter what happens.

Look at the absurdity in the CW forums right now--clans have advanced again so the threads are all focusing on buffs/nerfs because the ONLY reason a faction can possibly advance in CW is with OP 'mechs/quirks right?

[Throat Punch]

Don't touch my tralala

[Duke Nedo]

LordBraxton, on 09 July 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

All I see in this thread is

1- a midling player (op) expressed a valid opinion rather poorly.

2- Then he was attacked by a wall of clan icons.

3- OP foolishly responded with more attacks (addressing the attack against him instead of making counter arguments. yes a bunch of people attacked the OP, then tried to act 'rational' when he attacked back)

4- A bunch of Clan players proceeded to have a big group jerk off session about how 'fair' their mechs are.

Clan mechs are MUCH better than IS, almost entirely due to the godlike ClanXL. That is my opinion, and why I play clan mechs.

Also YES, Falcon omnis are far better than other clan's mechs. Just look at our summoner for example.

And all of a sudden there was a sensible post! Thank you!

[Hotthedd]

I do not believe i have ever seen anyone with more "I want"s in their posts than the OP.

That tells me all I need to know.

[Sjorpha]

Lostdragon, on 09 July 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

For every advantage a Clan weapon has over an IS weapon there is also a disadvantage.

This just isn't true. At all.

It's not true for ERPPCs, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

It's not true for gauss, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

It's not true for SRMs, same as above.

It's not true for SSRMS, same as above.

It's not true for LBs, same as above (not very important, both IS and clan LBs suck balls, but still.)

It's partly true for lasers, but clan lasers are still way better.

I admit it's true for LRMs and Autocannons (probably, haven't really seen how strong they are since the latest patch)

So out of 8 weapon types it's only really true for 2 of them.

It's definitely not true for equipment.

Clan engines are a straight upgrade

Clan ECM, AP, DHS, Endo, Ferro and so on are all straight upgrades.

A few things, like JJs, are equal.

Quirks are what supposedly balances all this, I think they do a pretty poor job with it in most cases and are a super bad way to balance in the first place, but at least they are supposed to.

But saying that there is a disadvantage for every advantage is just not true.

It COULD be MADE true, I wish it was. Then we wouldn't need quirks, and that would be great.

[Mcgral18]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

This just isn't true. At all.

It's not true for ERPPCs, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

But no 33% cooler normal PPC. With hotter Clams, it makes a difference. Mounting a single heatsink doesn't compare to 5 (or more) less heat.

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

It's not true for SRMs, same as above.

Not entirely true; for half weight, cSRMs do get 40CM worse spread than their IS counterparts (and 0.15 less damage...but that's worth even less than 40CM) on a CoF that is 11.8M wide, at the largest.


At least they tried.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Lostdragon, on 09 July 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

For every advantage a Clan weapon has over an IS weapon there is also a disadvantage. Lasers are lighter and do more damage but have a longer burn time and generate more heat. ACs are lighter but burst fire instead of doing PPFLD.

I’m sick of this argument so let’s do some mother loving math.

Clan Gauss, CERPPC, and CSSRMs are straight upgrades over IS tech.

Clan UAC vs IS AC are fine IMO. They're probably the best balanced of the weapon types.

IS SRMs do a margin 0.15/missile more damage but weight twice as much with the same cooldown time, range, and heat per second. Yeah, that’s fair. This one is easy to fix, clan SRMs get ripple fire like their LRMs do. It’d spread the damage out making them less effective but since they weigh half as much I figure that’s ok.

Now for lasers… the pinnacle of the trade off argument. The shining example of balance according to some… Basically people say, clan lasers generate more heat and have longer burn times but have more range.

However... looking at damage/second of beam on target and damage/ heat and overall DPS/ton (including recycle time)

IS SL= 3dam/0.75s= 4 dam/s @1.5DPH with 2 DPS/T
CERSL= 5dam/1= 5 dam/s @1.67DPH with 3.08 DPS/T

CERSL is a straight upgrade

IS ML=5dam/0.9s=5.6 dam/s @1.25DPH with 1.28 DPS/T
CERML= 7dam/1.1s 6.1 dam/s @1.17DPH with 1.69 DPS/T

A slight damage/heat win for the IS ML at half the range... and with less beam intensity... and lower overall DPS… totally balanced that...

IS LL= 9dam/1s @1.29DPH with 0.42 DPS/T
IS ERLL= 9dam/ 1.25s=7.2 dam/s @1.13DPH with 0.40 DPS/T
C ERLL=11 dam/1.5s=7.3 dam/s @1.10 DPH with 0.58 DPS/T

Hmm... well at least the IS LL does better... at half the effective range and the CERLL weighs a ton less... so... the CERLL is at the very least a straight upgrade from the ISERLL and realistically is superior to the IS LL since it's nearly half again as tonnage efficient. I'd knock C ERLL damage down to 9 or further increase beam duration to balance it.

Pulse lasers are a bit better. C Pulse have about the same range as IS lasers (or better) and about the same firing times. IS pulse have quite short durations and very short ranges. Let's compare IS lasers and IS Pulse lasers vs Clan Pulse lasers shall we?

We’ll consider damage/second of beam on target, damage per heat, and overall DPS/ton (including recycle time)

IS SL= 3dam/0.75s= 4 dam/s @1.5DPH with 2 DPS/ton
IS SPL=4 dam/0.5s=8 dam/s@2 DPH with 1.45 DPS/ton
CSPL=6 dam/0.75= 8 Dam/s@2 DPH with 2 DPS/ton

Well… looks like the CPL out ranges and out damages the IS equivalent with the same DPH at a longer range. Oh and it’s a straight upgrade over 2 IS SL with longer range and it only takes one slot. Still these are brawling weapons so, that’s something we can live with.

IS ML=5dam/0.9s=5.6 dam/s @1.25DPH with 1.28 DPS/T
IS MPL= 6 dam/0.6s= 10 dam/s @1.5DPH with 0.83 DPS/T
CMPL= 8 dam/0.85s=9.4dam/s@ 1.33 DPH with 1.04 DPS/T

Now this one is interesting. You get half again the range of the IS MPL, and more range than the IS ML, and a higher DPS/T rating than the IS equivalents. Against the IS MPL the CMPL loses in both damage per heat and beam intensity but it has better DPS overall, I call this matchup somewhat balanced.

IS LL= 9dam/1s @1.29DPH with 0.42 DPS/ton
IS ERLL= 9dam/ 1.25s=7.2 dam/s @1.13DPH with 0.40 DPS/ton
IS LPL= 11 dam/0.67s=16.4 dam/s @1.57 DPH with 0.40 DPS/ton
CLPL=13dam/1.12s= 11.6 dam/s @1.3 DPH with 0.5 DPS/ton

Ok… so the CLPL is simply better than the IS LL which it out ranges even though it weighs a ton more it's still got better DPS/ton. The IS LPL’s much shorter beam duration and heat efficiency gives it an advantage in a brawl. However… the CLPL extra range combined with the faster clan mechs’ ability to dictate range make it a more useful weapon in general and since it’s a straight upgrade over the IS ER LL (only IS laser that has a similar range) I’m not convinced it’s balanced over all. Maybe if its range were 450 meters and it’s heat higher or damage a bit lower it’d be fine… but as is? I don’t think so.

Thanks for reading my boring old maths here. Personally, I’m fine with clan tech being 100% better because I like a challenge but it’s frankly bad for the game over all without a battle value system of some kind. Regardless, I suspect PGI is addressing these issues in their mega rebalance of all the things that they’re doing.

[Praehotec8]

As a medical doctor, I disagree with your initial statement.

[Hotthedd]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

This just isn't true. At all.

It's not true for ERPPCs, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

It's not true for gauss, the clan version is a straight upgrade, no disadvantage.

It's not true for SRMs, same as above.

It's not true for SSRMS, same as above.

It's not true for LBs, same as above (not very important, both IS and clan LBs suck balls, but still.)

It's partly true for lasers, but clan lasers are still way better.

I admit it's true for LRMs and Autocannons (probably, haven't really seen how strong they are since the latest patch)

So out of 8 weapon types it's only really true for 2 of them.

It's definitely not true for equipment.

Clan engines are a straight upgrade

Clan ECM, AP, DHS, Endo, Ferro and so on are all straight upgrades.

A few things, like JJs, are equal.

Quirks are what supposedly balances all this, I think they do a pretty poor job with it in most cases and are a super bad way to balance in the first place, but at least they are supposed to.

But saying that there is a disadvantage for every advantage is just not true.

It COULD be MADE true, I wish it was. Then we wouldn't need quirks, and that would be great.

You are right, but remember that unless you are talking about the IIc 'mechs, Endo and Ferro are not optional for clans. Either you have it or you don't. Also Clan XLs are better, but you cannot change ratings.

I believe that is what is meant by advantages/disadvantages as far as those things.

[Greenjulius]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

This just isn't true. At all.

*List of weapons and equipment, and differences between IS and Clan versions of each*

Solid breakdown. The answer to this is whether or not range is important. Some will say, "duration is more important than range." This is not true. They are equally important, and depend heavily upon the map. Would you prefer an ERLL or a SPL on Alpine for instance? You don't need to be a genius to figure that out.

Brawling maps will favor meds, spls and all kinds of pulse. Open maps benefit ER weapons to no end. We have a decent mix of both in solo play, with CW obviously favoring long range weapons.

Until we can establish a decent system of balances and stop defending our favorite gundam, we will continue to have a game held together by scotch tape.

[Wolfhagen]

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

While you're working on the stormcrow, have a go over of the ice ferret. GCGB actually uses a tactic of bringing a whole ferret wave because they are broken as well.

You forgot the 12 Mist Lynx RoflStomp.
So PGI should better nerf the much overpowered Lynx also.

best regards

Wolfhagen
GCGB

[Revis Volek]

Sjorpha, on 09 July 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

I don't think the extreme quirks are OP so much as they are just plain silly.

I mean there is actually no mech that has been quirked to the level of surpassing the best clan mechs in strength. Not even the TDR 9S was ever a better mech than the TW. But the extreme quirks do transform these mechs into silly gimmick builds, and we shouldn't have that.

Not thinking they are OP does not mean they are NOT OP. Opinions are like a$$holes.....


I guess you forget about the first round of quirks to the Thud's, they were in fact VERY OP and were running the show in CW.

IF they were not OP or too much then why would PGI have rolled the quirks back? hmm?

Edited by DarthRevis, 09 July 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Sean Lang]

This is already in the works, was talked about on the latest Town Hall Meeting w/Russ Bullock! Details I'm sure will be released soon, as he said play tests on the public test server would be happening probably in July!

[Doktor Schmerz]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 09 July 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

I’m sick of this argument so let’s do some mother loving math.

Clan Gauss, CERPPC, and CSSRMs are straight upgrades over IS tech.

Clan UAC vs IS AC are fine IMO. They're probably the best balanced of the weapon types.

IS SRMs do a margin 0.15/missile more damage but weight twice as much with the same cooldown time, range, and heat per second. Yeah, that’s fair. This one is easy to fix, clan SRMs get ripple fire like their LRMs do. It’d spread the damage out making them less effective but since they weigh half as much I figure that’s ok.

Now for lasers… the pinnacle of the trade off argument. The shining example of balance according to some… Basically people say, clan lasers generate more heat and have longer burn times but have more range.

However... looking at damage/second of beam on target and damage/ heat and overall DPS/ton (including recycle time)

IS SL= 3dam/0.75s= 4 dam/s @1.5DPH with 2 DPS/T
CERSL= 5dam/1= 5 dam/s @1.67DPH with 3.08 DPS/T

CERSL is a straight upgrade

IS ML=5dam/0.9s=5.6 dam/s @1.25DPH with 1.28 DPS/T
CERML= 7dam/1.1s 6.1 dam/s @1.17DPH with 1.69 DPS/T

A slight damage/heat win for the IS ML at half the range... and with less beam intensity... and lower overall DPS… totally balanced that...

IS LL= 9dam/1s @1.29DPH with 0.42 DPS/T
IS ERLL= 9dam/ 1.25s=7.2 dam/s @1.13DPH with 0.40 DPS/T
C ERLL=11 dam/1.5s=7.3 dam/s @1.10 DPH with 0.58 DPS/T

Hmm... well at least the IS LL does better... at half the effective range and the CERLL weighs a ton less... so... the CERLL is at the very least a straight upgrade from the ISERLL and realistically is superior to the IS LL since it's nearly half again as tonnage efficient. I'd knock C ERLL damage down to 9 or further increase beam duration to balance it.

Pulse lasers are a bit better. C Pulse have about the same range as IS lasers (or better) and about the same firing times. IS pulse have quite short durations and very short ranges. Let's compare IS lasers and IS Pulse lasers vs Clan Pulse lasers shall we?

We’ll consider damage/second of beam on target, damage per heat, and overall DPS/ton (including recycle time)

IS SL= 3dam/0.75s= 4 dam/s @1.5DPH with 2 DPS/ton
IS SPL=4 dam/0.5s=8 dam/s@2 DPH with 1.45 DPS/ton
CSPL=6 dam/0.75= 8 Dam/s@2 DPH with 2 DPS/ton

Well… looks like the CPL out ranges and out damages the IS equivalent with the same DPH at a longer range. Oh and it’s a straight upgrade over 2 IS SL with longer range and it only takes one slot. Still these are brawling weapons so, that’s something we can live with.

IS ML=5dam/0.9s=5.6 dam/s @1.25DPH with 1.28 DPS/T
IS MPL= 6 dam/0.6s= 10 dam/s @1.5DPH with 0.83 DPS/T
CMPL= 8 dam/0.85s=9.4dam/s@ 1.33 DPH with 1.04 DPS/T

Now this one is interesting. You get half again the range of the IS MPL, and more range than the IS ML, and a higher DPS/T rating than the IS equivalents. Against the IS MPL the CMPL loses in both damage per heat and beam intensity but it has better DPS overall, I call this matchup somewhat balanced.

IS LL= 9dam/1s @1.29DPH with 0.42 DPS/ton
IS ERLL= 9dam/ 1.25s=7.2 dam/s @1.13DPH with 0.40 DPS/ton
IS LPL= 11 dam/0.67s=16.4 dam/s @1.57 DPH with 0.40 DPS/ton
CLPL=13dam/1.12s= 11.6 dam/s @1.3 DPH with 0.5 DPS/ton

Ok… so the CLPL is simply better than the IS LL which it out ranges even though it weighs a ton more it's still got better DPS/ton. The IS LPL’s much shorter beam duration and heat efficiency gives it an advantage in a brawl. However… the CLPL extra range combined with the faster clan mechs’ ability to dictate range make it a more useful weapon in general and since it’s a straight upgrade over the IS ER LL (only IS laser that has a similar range) I’m not convinced it’s balanced over all. Maybe if its range were 450 meters and it’s heat higher or damage a bit lower it’d be fine… but as is? I don’t think so.

Thanks for reading my boring old maths here. Personally, I’m fine with clan tech being 100% better because I like a challenge but it’s frankly bad for the game over all without a battle value system of some kind. Regardless, I suspect PGI is addressing these issues in their mega rebalance of all the things that they’re doing.

You forget they won't care and keep bitching about quirks and how the firestarter is broken. But you proved my point none the less. I was actually giving them too much credit...

If they just fixed two things I'd be fine. The ******* stormcrow needs to die faster, and torsos need to blow up XL engine mechs or have some penalty.

[Greenjulius]

Sean Lang, on 09 July 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

This is already in the works, was talked about on the latest Town Hall Meeting w/Russ Bullock! Details I'm sure will be released soon, as he said play tests on the public test server would be happening probably in July!

Thanks Phil.

I hope so... it baffles me that it took us a full year to figure out a reasonable method to balance IS and Clan. Then again... maybe I am not surprised.

[Revis Volek]

TanE, on 09 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

I like this thread! I think Doc Schmerzi is the first one who told us: Ice Ferrets are OP!

So 12 Firestarters with 8 SPL are not OP. And 192 km/h are OK... Wait, where is the awesome meme...

...ah, here it is!



Organized gaming is OP. Most of the time...

The funny thing is we (SA) have been running 12 Ice Ferrets for as long as i can remember....this is the first time i heard ANYONE even claim the mech was OP those bears must be fierce in them. Most of the time the opposition is laughing at us so hard that's were we get our edge! lol


The day 12 ferrets are OP is the day you admit you are 100% wrong and need to L2P Doc.

Doktor Schmerz, on 09 July 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

You forget they won't care and keep bitching about quirks and how the firestarter is broken. But you proved my point none the less. I was actually giving them too much credit...

If they just fixed two things I'd be fine. The ******* stormcrow needs to die faster, and torsos need to blow up XL engine mechs or have some penalty.

We have a penalty, we loose half our mech and get more heat generation. (unless they took that out already) Clans dont have the ability to swap to a more beefy STD engine like IS does so this would just be a flat out NERF to every single Clan mech, even the bad ones like the Mist lynx and Ice Ferret (even though you seem to think they are OP)

Edited by DarthRevis, 09 July 2015 - 10:12 AM.