I have rested now.
Duke Nedo, on 26 July 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:
I only filled With DHS' on the EBJ until I got comparable sustained dps.
Yeah, and that was one of my issues with your comparison. The Sustained DPS is wrong because it doesn't factor in the .5 seconds needed to avoid Ghost heat (which applies to a 7 MPLP Ebon Jag as well since the threshold on MPLs is 6). You're comparison also only accounted for straight tonnage and slots, which is a worthless comparison once heat is factored into the equation. The Clan MPL produced 6 heat as opposed to the IS MPL's 4. Off handedly, the Clan mech would need to carry 50% more heat sinks than its IS counter part to achieve the same heat management. But the Ebon jag can only carry 25 (38% more than my TDR's 18).
So there you have. The Clan DHS being one slot less, is not OP. It's frankly quite necessary, as no Clan mech would be able to utilize all its weight and maintain any amount of heat management if it were 3 slots. Even being able to pack in more than IS mechs thanks to a smaller number of slots on the item the Clan mech can't maintain the same heat efficiency as the IS mech.
My point there is that people need to stop comparing straight tonnage and slot values,
because they don't mean anything. Once you've actually thrown a real build together, saving 1 slot per DHS is not a big advantage. While my EBJ has 17% better heat dissipation, but it has 200% more heat generation. There's a point I want to make here but before that;
More examples, because having more will help me illustrate my point (god damn it math...);
Quote
4x cERMLs compare to 3x LLs (4 vs 15 tons!)
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4x cMPLs compare to 3x LPLs (8 vs 21 tons!)
cERMLs have the same heat as cMPLs, and 1 less damage (7/6) at a range of 405 unquirked. The IS LL does 9 damage and produces 7 heat at a range of 450 unquirked. The cLPL does 13 damage at 10 heat at a range of 600.
Because my point is that straight slots and tons is a worthless comparison, lets look at actual builds that would run these weapons. You used the Shadow Hawk and Stormie in your OP, but the Shadow Hawk is subpar (
it is not good). Anyway, if you want a good Large Laser platform, look no further than the Wolverine 6k. I will compare it to the classic Laser Vomit Crow.
The 6K's relevant quirks are: LL range +12.5%. Energy Range 12.5%. Energy Cooldown 15%. LL Heat Generation - 12.5%. Energy Heat Generation -12.5%. Laser Duration -15%. Adding the quriks up (cause I'm just slapping some LL's onto this thing), Range +25%. Heat Generation -25%. Cooldown 15%. Duration -15%. < Like seriously, this is why no one should be using the Shadow Hawk. These quirks kick ass!
The Buildies;
SCR-B, and
WVR-6K.
SCR, XL 330, Endo/Ferro, 21 DHS
106.9 KPH
364 Armor
41 Firepower (41 Damage front loaded)
8.5 Real DPS (1.2 Seconds Face time LPL/ 1.24 ERML, 4.71 second cycle time LPL/3.24 second cylce time ERML)
Cooling 44% (40 heat per volley, 9.23 heat dissipation per volley)
TC Enhanced Range, 414 (ERML), 613.5 (LPL) < Ideal range for this combo is 400-500m
WVR XL 300, Endo, 15 DHS
97.2 KPH
368 Armor
36 Firepower (36 damage front loaded)
9.97 Real DPS (.85 seconds face time, 3.61 second cycle time)
Cooling 40% (28 Heat per volley, 5.79 heat dissipation per volley)
Quirk enhanced range, 552 < Ideal range here is going to be 450-600m
As a quick note to illustrate the worthlessness of the Stormcrow negative quirks, the build above only has -8% to fire duration, which takes its face time from 1.1 to 1.2. A point 1 seconds difference... Good job there PGI. Really feeling those nerfs XD /sarcasm
These two are probably a much more worthwhile comparison, because their both tier one mechs, and their most typical load outs as above are very comparable to one another, at least in raw numbers. The Storm Crow is faster, and has higher up front damage but significantly longer face time. The Crow has more favorable heat management, but slightly less range. Note the real DPS. The Wolverine applies it's damage at a faster rate than the Storm Crow thanks to a much shorter fire durations and quicker cycle times. The range difference between the Crow's weapons is also libel to result in lower damage out of 400m, but in the real game, the Laser Vomit Crow likes bouncing between 400 and 500 m, because while the damage falls off on the ERML, they're still quite effective. I didn't bother to calculate that.
Now for the reality; While in numbers, these two mechs are quite well balanced with the above builds carrying an interesting balance, the Storm Crow blatantly better for one reason; The right arm. All of the Wolverines weapons are on the right arm. Blow off the arm, the poor Wolvie is pretty much dead, or might as well be. The Crow can target that arm and blow it off fairly well. I've done it more times than I can count. Plus the Crow gets way more tankiness thanks to the Clan XL.
In this example, the unbalancing factor has nothing to do with tonnage or slots, but with hard point placement and the IS XL engines... IS XLness. It shows that IS mechs need significant quirks (damn are those quirks sexy...) to match Clan tech in damage capability, but that quirks do not make up for hard point location and the issue of the IS XL. Unfortunately, most IS mechs don't get the love that the Wolverine has received, and thus lag even further behind their Clan counterparts.
Compare my earlier TDR and EBJ builds. At first glance, the fight might seem more balanced than it really is. Reality is that a build like that (I'd actually use a Gauss 6 ERML build but the concept carries), a smart pilot will only use 6 of the 8 MPLs. This avoids ghost heat, and takes advantage of the fact that the front loaded damage on the 6 MPLs is very favoirable. 6 Can fire for just 36 heat. The mech will dissipate 12.07 heat during the weapon cycle.
So 6 Clan MPLs and 7 IS MPLs (with quirks) dissipate about 1/3 of their heat during cycle respectively, have comparable range and damage. However to achieve that end, the Clan MPLs need a whopping 38% more heat sinks. The straight tonnage of the weapons + their heat sinks to achieve this parity is 37 Tons on the EBJ, and 32 on the TDR. Again, this is really quite favorable as a matter of balance.
Now the unbalanced part; The EBJ has two more MPLs. Just sitting there. Waiting. Waiting for that poor TDR to be dark yellow or orange CT.
Firing just 6 MPLs at a time, the EBJ can just wait 1 second, and no matter what will always be able to pump those last two MPLs, which are always waiting, to get the kill and the EBJ not overheat (12 heat dissipation per second remember, 2 MPLs make 12 heat)?. < That is a significant imbalance in the EBJ's favor. Several Clan Mechs can pull this trick (The Timber, Crow, and Warhawk) thanks to their abundant weapon hard points.
So my point is; Stop looking at tonnage values. PGI seems to have already accounted for the tonnage and slots of Clan and IS tech in their balancing, and has actually done a good job mitigating the strengths and weakness of the two on real builds. The large problem comes not from tonnage/slots, but from hard point placement, the abundant hard points on many Clan mechs, and the fact that only the most quirked IS mechs can even reach parity of paper (and several of said mechs fall short in the real game for numerous reasons).
Balance issues I've noted in the above two comparisons;
The IS XL is a significant weakness for the IS
Many IS mechs can't take advantage of Ferro and Endo, they run out of slots before they run out of tonnage
Only highly quirked IS mechs can achieve damage parity with Clan mechs, and most suffer from the IS XL
Top Clan mechs can abuse their many hard points plus endo and ferro to pack additional on demand burst damage to ensure kills
Edited by Lord0fHats, 27 July 2015 - 09:22 PM.
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We are just illustrating it in different ways. 
). There's some cheese builds to, like the Dragon 1N but I don't think the Dragon is a well balanced mech just because it works if you stack a team with 12 of them.
