158 replies to this topic

[Iron Horse]

According to the TT rules and canon, ferrocrete streets are actually slippery for 'mechs, due to the fact that 'mechs' feet are designed for all-terrain, and roads are better designed for rubber wheels., so would actually be difficult for 'mechs to get much traction.

If the 'mechs slip a bit when cornering at high speeds in-game I think this could add a cool dynamic. Especially for smaller 'mechs which should generally find some comfort in urban terrain this could add a little balance.

I am curious to see what everyone else thinks, and see if anyone else remembers this from TT rules.

[Phades]

That rule was more arbitrary than anything in order to attempt to curtail overly easy flanking while in city with faster machines at close ranges.

If mechs can crash through buildings, weapon fire destroying just about anything it hits, fires raging from napalm, I'm more inclined to think that a machine with serrated bottoms of feet (in order to have traction in the first place) weighing upwards of 100 tons and displacing 100% of that weight shift through each leg individually while moving in addition to the force offset to break inertia and gravity that the concrete is going to break up and lose before the mech is just going to slip like walking over grease in plastic bottomed slippers.

[Karyudo ds]

I like the idea that mechs have to be aware of their momentum, though personally I thought "sliding" on roads was slightly ridiculous. I would say no as long as balance was still in question somehow.

[Armored Yokai]

I go with the slipery idea but what if someone added rubber to the feet of his mech

[Iron Horse]

Phades, on 30 November 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

If mechs can crash through buildings, weapon fire destroying just about anything it hits, fires raging from napalm, I'm more inclined to think that a machine with serrated bottoms of feet (in order to have traction in the first place) weighing upwards of 100 tons and displacing 100% of that weight shift through each leg individually while moving in addition to the force offset to break inertia and gravity that the concrete is going to break up and lose before the mech is just going to slip like walking over grease in plastic bottomed slippers.

I was thinking of a more slight effect, like if you try to go from a full run at 60+ kph to a full reverse, or if you're trying to pull hard corners off at similar speeds. This wouldn't really affect Assault 'mechs at all, it would be more for keeping smaller 'mechs a little more honest when darting around corners all the time. I definitely wouldn't want to see something that made the game too hard or caused the 'mech to fall over a lot.
It was more of an interesting point from TT rules I just happened to remember, and wanted to see what the community thought. I don't even really have an opinion, but think it could add one more element of balance to the game if used. Hopefully, PGI is planning on some sort of pilot skill that increases as you pull of maneuvers, for instance firing AC/2, using Jumpjets, or in this case sliding in a corner. This would make up for the work of the Neurohelmet, which there is no real analog for in previous MechWarrior games.

EDIT: When the 'mech's feet have serration they are designed to grip loose soil. The hard surface of a road breaks up a large percent of the expected contact, reducing the overall traction. Check out this video of a fast-moving tank with a similar weight and contact surface trying to turn at a high rate of speed (the part I'm talking about ends at :15):

EDIT: I agree with Dlardrageth. He posted basically the same thing (I think) as I was editing in the video above.

Edited by Iron Horse, 30 November 2011 - 06:28 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

Cementblade, on 30 November 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:

I go with the slipery idea but what if someone added rubber to the feet of his mech

Um, and you'd replace the rubber like after every patrol?

Don't forget that skidding is mostly happening wehen the Mech goes at high/flanking/running speed. Same as with a RL tank. Yes, indeed, a RL tank these days can skid, in particular on wet asphalt/concrete. Ofc it wouldn't if only going like 10 kph. At 50-60 though, taking a sharp turn... Thus it would prolly come down to check current speed, momentum and surface condition to determine chances for skidding. Add to that a (hopefully) completely destructible environment, and it could already lead to nice gameplay moments, even if the skidding Mech actually takes no direct damage or only topples down.

Personally I'd rather not have the skidding mechanics completely omitted for the game. First of all, it would be unrealistic, secondly it would sort of dumb down gameplay, and thirdly it could make for some rather funny gameplay moments if players miscalculate skidding hazard and crash through a building into the enemy formation, instead of speeding to a corner of it and lurking there. I admit it adds a bit more complexity to the piloting part, but that has not necessarily to be a bad thing.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 30 November 2011 - 06:47 PM.

[Damocles]

I absolutely HATE this rule in TT so; No.

[Psydotek]

I don't know if I'd support slippery, but I would support faster movement (or be able to run at full speed) on hard terrain. Anyone can tell you that running on sand is much slower than running on concrete even if you're swinging your legs at the same rate on both surfaces.

[Zakatak]

Maybe reduce the acceleration speed a little, to prevent sliding, but making asphault "slippery"?

Mech feet are not flat metal surfaces, how else could they stand sideways on a 45 degree incline? Mechs distribute all of their weight on a small surface area, so they would likely sink into the ground (like in MW3).

[Mordegald]

As long as it was slight enough that it was more like drift turning and less like a spin-out, then yeah, I could live with that. Hell, it could open up some pretty sweet maneuvers.

But only if we got a nice "crumbling asphalt" sound effect and a little cloud of black dust around the ankles to go with it. Super-asphalt or no, nothing holds up well with a bare minimum of 25 tons of solid metal skidding across it at 65+ kph.

[Merlin DRAAGUN]

Mordegald, on 30 November 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

As long as it was slight enough that it was more like drift turning and less like a spin-out, then yeah, I could live with that. Hell, it could open up some pretty sweet maneuvers.

But only if we got a nice "crumbling asphalt" sound effect and a little cloud of black dust around the ankles to go with it. Super-asphalt or no, nothing holds up well with a bare minimum of 25 tons of solid metal skidding across it at 65+ kph.

A light can totally destroy a heavy while slidin'
Merl'

[Xhaleon]

You know, if you did try placing rubber on the soles of their feet, it would be really easy to replace them. They're mechs, just build rubber slippers and they can step into them every day.

Pink bunny eared mech slippers anyone?

[ChaosTicket]

Ok this doesnt make sense. Mechs can be effective on various terrain, so why would very solid materials be "slippery" for them?

Solid materials wouldnt cause traction problems, so any form of asphalt/concrete/ferrorcete is an unexplained weakness. If the materials were in ruins they might for mechs too small to just crush the material.

[Dlardrageth]

ChaosTicket, on 30 November 2011 - 08:45 PM, said:

Ok this doesnt make sense. Mechs can be effective on various terrain, so why would very solid materials be "slippery" for them?
[...]

Why are they for tanks in real life? It is not so much about a "slippery" surface as about the physics of momentum on a surface where you cannot just "dig in" your feet/tracks.

[Outlaw]

Chaos, if you have a hardwood or lanolium floor, go run through that room full speed with socks on and try to turn, that there simulates metal on concrete. Now at lower speeds you wont have too much trouble turning, but at a full on run it causes issues. The rule in table top was only for RUNNING ie past around 60% throttle and then turning.

[Iron Horse]

I'm not saying I have any answers, but 'mechs are HUGE, right? Just from all of the weight being focused into such a small contact point (feet), when they stand on a normal surface like sod or packed dirt 'mechs would probably sink in a fair amount (not noticeably, but 1 or 2 inches, whereas vehicles probably wouldn't). We see this phenomenon occurring in fossilized dinosaur tracks, where much bigger animals leave much deeper footprints than others.
This would be similar to a person in socks standing on carpet (since 'mech feet aren't fully articulated it wouldn't be quite like bare feet). The sock represents the 'mech's foot in dirt, as it provides extra traction due to the extra contact area on carpet. Now move the 'mech onto a much harder surface, let's say steel. Now the 'mech hardly sinks in at all, and a smaller percent of the foot's contact area is touching the flat surface. This would be like the person in socks trying to move on a hardwood floor, which as we all know can be a lot more difficult (also watch dogs trying to run on linoleum).
I don't know if that helps make my point or not.

That's funny! I didn't even see your post when I started replying, Outlaw!

Edited by Iron Horse, 30 November 2011 - 09:21 PM.

[ChaosTicket]

Thats because those materials lack friction, concrete has friction, youll rarely find a purely smooth piece of anything people or vehicles travel over.

Speeding mechs on the otherhand would have a problem. Big mechs would be slowed damn crushing any rubble, and fast mechs would need to slow to move around large pieces.

But solid flat concrete wouldnt be a problem, rubble would.
----------------------------
Think about a human foot, hardwood floors would be difficult to travel over, especially with socks, but put on things that cause friction(for traction) like shoes and its only a problem if travelling fast enough that the traction is too low.

If mechs has roller skates then solid surfaces would be slippery. If the had grooved wheels, they wouldnt. If they had All-terrain feet it certainly wouldnt.

[Phades]

I always found it amusing that the rule applied to concrete, but not solid ice where it would have been far more appropriate. Even if the soles were serrated and shredding the ice, unless they get a good dig into it, there would be no changing direction at all.

So, like i said earlier, it was an arbitrary rule to try and limit the flanking ability of lights in an environment where they would receive less shots at them.

Edited by Phades, 30 November 2011 - 10:11 PM.

[ChaosTicket]

Now THAT makes sense. Its an unexplained rule to limit movement in city-scapes. Plausibly some mechs would travel over structures too large for them, such as an Atlas trying to cross a bridge rated for 70 tons, and they would collapse.

On ice that would be similar, the mech would need to slow down for risk of collapsing the Ice, solid ground like concrete on the other hand wouldnt be a problem, unless the mech stepped directly on a sewer man-hole.

[CobraFive]

I think the feet would easily dig into ice. Ice isn't particularly strong. It also makes sense to me to dig into dirt

To me it always made sense they couldn't dig into the ferrocrete, at least not well enough to let them run full speed and bank. plus its ferrocrete which is... stronger? "Ferro" implies metal.

I thought it was a nice idea, but, I don't know how you'd impliment it in a MW game. Falling down while running full speed over concrete... I don't think it sounds like it adds to the game.