342 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Lightfoot, on 14 January 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yes, they would likely need to nerf HVACs like the Gauss Rifle. The Gauss Rifle had 1500 mps slugs when it was nerfed. HVACs are fairly similar.

They wouldn't, because an HVAC already has a penalty for firing it that the Gauss Rifle does not inherently have: heat. The HVAC/10 produces 7 points of heat, meaning it costs you some opportunity to fire other weapons that a Gauss Rifle would not. Where I would be able to fire a Gauss and two PPCs for 35 damage and 21 heat, I have to spend 27 heat to get 30 damage out of an HVAC/10 and two PPCs. That's a Damage/Heat ratio of 1.67 to 1.11, respectively, and that's huge.

You are also assuming the HVAC/10 would have Gauss velocities, and I find that to be rather presumptive. The current AC/10 only travels at 950 m/s. Even 1200 m/s from the HVAC/10 would be a big enough improvement to warrant the name, but that's still not in league with the Gauss rifle.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 14 January 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Lightfoot, on 14 January 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

What's wrong with making the mechs tougher so they can withstand the 2xRecycle PGI has added to most weapons, especially the big ones? Prior to MWO ERPPCs had a 8 second recycle, so did the Gauss Rifle. I mean you really need to look no further than that to understand why 12v12's with these 2xRecycling weapons have such short TTK's. What's wrong with fixing that? Sometime before the 3060 weapons are released would be smart.

Mechs will be tougher if they buff non-clan XL engines with structure, and we'll also have the new skill tree that gives people the freedom to choose more structure and armor. Those will be all we need, we don't need triple TT armor, or else the sheer durability would lead to smaller skirmishes being tedious.

Also I don't get your obsession with comparing the HVAC/10 to a Gauss. It does less damage, generates significantly more heat, and would have less velocity and range, how is that not balanced enough already?

Yeonne Greene, on 14 January 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

They wouldn't, because an HVAC already has a penalty for firing it that the Gauss Rifle does not inherently have: heat. The HVAC/10 produces 7 points of heat, meaning it costs you some opportunity to fire other weapons that a Gauss Rifle would not. Where I would be able to fire a Gauss and two PPCs for 35 damage and 21 heat, I have to spend 27 heat to get 30 damage out of an HVAC/10 and two PPCs. That's a Damage/Heat ratio of 1.67 to 1.11, respectively, and that's huge.

You are also assuming the HVAC/10 would have Gauss velocities, and I find that to be rather presumptive. The current AC/10 only travels at 950 m/s. Even 1200 m/s from the HVAC/10 would be a big enough improvement to warrant the name, but that's still not in league with the Gauss rifle.

I feel 1600m/s would be needed to actually warrant its drawbacks

[Y E O N N E]

Gentleman Reaper, on 14 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I feel 1600m/s would be needed to actually warrant its drawbacks

Probably, but I'd at least consider taking it at 1200 m/s.

[Brain Cancer]

Get back to me when MWO can make current weapons function and allows me to mount AC/20's according to the construction rules, rather than forcing them into a single location.

Weapon systems like ATMs or the later MML are useless without ammo switching. I can't use alternate ammo for missile launchers or autocannons, which increasingly removes improvements from both as we go further down the timeline.

And there's game-changing weapon systems already in the current timeframe, some of which would be easily done with current coding. Rifles, filling in the gap between MG and AC/2. Rocket launchers, cheap hard-hitting oneshot ways to use missile hardpoints, especially on lighter robots. There's others that would give us weapons capable of firing over terrain but requiring aim, like mortars and artillery cannons. The latter and Arrow IV would also give modest area-effect damage capacity to break up tight formations.

March forward all you like, but it's utterly not needed to add a rich variety of new weapons to the game. Unless you want more placeholder junk like the C-AC.

[Brain Cancer]

Gentleman Reaper, on 14 January 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

Why are nerfs to TT mechanics a bad thing? There's lots of restrictions to these new weapons that would prevent them from completely obsoleting older tech:

Heavy Gauss: It's 18 freaking tons, has marginally better range than an AC/20, is so bulky it requires a standard engine to use and cripples you if it detonates.

If PGI actually understood their own MechLab, you could easily mount a HGauss with an XL engine.

Or an AC/20 or LB-20X for that matter. In TT, they're legally able to be split between multiple locations, as long as they're adjacent to each other. All it'd take as far as firing arcs is to put any split-location gun on the torso crosshair, since they automatically use the most restrictive targeting options.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 14 January 2017 - 03:55 AM, said:

Traditionally LAMS was limited by heat. It costs 5 heat per Clan LAMS and 7 heat per IS LAMS to fire in the duration of 10 seconds. And since MWO cooldown is much faster than TT cooldown, mechs with multiple LAMS will heat up fast.

Hmm...that might get me to take a LRM launcher
And Flamers


Let's see if they remember to turn their AMS system off.

[DukeMurphy]

Bring on the new tech!

[Andi Nagasia]

for the Sake of these new weapons, im modifing their stats to fit into MWO,
making them Cooler, or slightly smaller, for the sake of filling holes in each Factions Line up,

for Example i see X-Pulse Lasers as being IS Pulse Lasers with Near Clan Ranges for a little more heat,
HACs having much more Velocity and Range even better than Clan UACs to make up for their +2Tons,
C-Heavy Lasers being more 2Smaller Lasers Heat and Damage, but at that smaller lasers Range,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 January 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

The Silent Protagonist, on 14 January 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

Something not on that list I'd love to see: LAMS. Unlimited ammo AMS appeals to me

I'd say balance it by weighing 3 tons, maybe make it less effective vs missiles (I can't remember how many AMS can shoot down, is it 20% of the missiles a second?) So maybe make its DPS against the missiles half or 3/4 the effectiveness?

Just imagining the glorious laser show that'd come of the Kit Fox with 3 LAMS...

charliedelta76, on 14 January 2017 - 04:29 AM, said:

Where's the Rotary Autocannon At?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/2

Description[edit]

Developed in 3062 by the Federated Commonwealth, the Rotary Autocannon/2 is based only loosely on the Autocannon/2. While it has the same bore, it is capable of firing up to six times as many rounds as its standard cousin, allowing it to deal three times the damage of even an Ultra AC/2. The weapon may be use to fire up to six times in a turn, with each additional shot giving the potential for increased damage. At the same time, each extra shot increases the amount of heat the autocannon builds and increases the chance for a jam. Like Ultra autocannons, Rotary autocannons are unable to make use of special munitions.^[2]
Clan Diamond Shark engineers created their own version of the RAC/2 in 3069 and go to full production in 3073.^[1]

Ok working on adding both, thanks for finding these,

[Lightfoot]

Gentleman Reaper, on 14 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Mechs will be tougher if they buff non-clan XL engines with structure, and we'll also have the new skill tree that gives people the freedom to choose more structure and armor. Those will be all we need, we don't need triple TT armor, or else the sheer durability would lead to smaller skirmishes being tedious.

Also I don't get your obsession with comparing the HVAC/10 to a Gauss. It does less damage, generates significantly more heat, and would have less velocity and range, how is that not balanced enough already?


I feel 1600m/s would be needed to actually warrant its drawbacks

The Gauss Rifle was 1500 mps when they decided it needed the charge-up nerf. HVACs will be no different since they will be easily paired with PPCs. 30-40 points of armor busting damage at 1500 mps. But that's nothing compared to RACs, which are 3062, but you see where this is going.

Look, MWO can't support the ancient Gauss Rifle. No way it will support a slew of better second gen weapons. Not without even goofier nerfs like 20 second weapon jams or something. Get ready for the rants.

[JohnnyWayne]

Personally, I would prefer a MWLL implementation for X-Pulse-Lasers. Either a continously fast fireing single pulse laser with adjusted damage or lets say 5 pulses each with individual cooldown and they fire until you stop or all 5 charges are used up. If not fired they would rebuild their charges (basically like Tracers blink in overwatch in case you guys know that).

That would be a new mechanic at least...

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 14 January 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

ok just finished the Stats on the RAC2/5 as well as the LAMS(Laser AMS) post your thoughts on them,

[Andi Nagasia]

Lightfoot, on 14 January 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

The Gauss Rifle was 1500 mps when they decided it needed the charge-up nerf. HVACs will be no different since they will be easily paired with PPCs. 30-40 points of armor busting damage at 1500 mps. But that's nothing compared to RACs, which are 3062, but you see where this is going.

Look, MWO can't support the ancient Gauss Rifle. No way it will support a slew of better second gen weapons. Not without even goofier nerfs like 20 second weapon jams or something. Get ready for the rants.

the Purpose of these it to not make any weapon Introduced replace another weapon,
as HACs are ACs not Gauss i dont see why they would have a Charge,

[Kael Posavatz]

I'll admit that I am pretty worried about this tech jump.

PGI has done a pretty good job of making all weapons more or less relevant on the battlefield. Some are not widely appreciated, but that comes more from the manner in which they are used rather than true worthlessness of the weapon itself.

Adding new weapons/systems would make it far more difficult for that to remain the case.

Also, PGI has historically taken an overpower-and-nerf strategy to new releases. For obvious reasons this has been largely focused (not exclusively, however, as the great quarkening showed) on one side. This tech has the potential to make both sides simultaneously overpowered in different ways.

That said...what do you think they are going to do with C3 systems?

[Guile Votoms]

I hope they're going to be something that's actually different and not just the same old stuff with different numbers.

[a gaijin]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

Targeting Computers similarly shouldn't be speeding up projectiles or increasing range either, then, but generally I agree. Those kinds of quirks actually make moving from one 'Mech to another a pain in the butt, having to readjust what should be muscle memory to use the same equipment. The exception, though, are 'Mechs that really can't bring many weapons, i.e. Spider 5V (gets two energy, both in the CT) or Locust 3V (two Energy in CT, two Ballistics in arms). They need something to boost their output. More hardpoints is one option, rate of fire quirks is another.

Really, the base values on current equipment are out of whack. The weapon quirks should be unnecessary on most 'Mechs with some tweaks to the base values. Less heat for Medium-class lasers and PPC classes, faster cool-down for Medium and Small-class lasers and standard ACs. Slightly higher velocity for PPCs and standard ACs. A little more range on the Large and ER Large Laser. A little less duration on the Medium and ER Large laser (also cER Large). Etc.

Now that i know about the different weapon system manufacturers i can understand & tolerate the range and velocity differences a bit. I just wish PGI had put that out there when they released quirks to begin with. It would also be nice if they listed not just the type of weapon being installed on each mech, make and model would do a lot (for me at least) in understanding why some mechs get the quirks that they do.

I still don't think TCs should affect range and veocity. I wonder if PGI will ever come up with a better way to have them be useful enough to make people use them though?

As far as some underpowered mechs having their output boosted, I agree that reduced heat and reload/cooldown quirks go a long way in resolving that. The problem is, whiny (and jealous?) people will cry "OP! Nerf it!"
Annoying. Especially when the nerfs actually become reality.

Snowbluff, on 13 January 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

The weapons aren't modular, they are not made by the same manufacturer, or compatible with each chassis, and the weapon classes are only an abstraction of a variety of weapon.

Best explanation I've read. As I've never played TT (unfortunately) I wouldn't know about the different makers.
That just applied to velocity? Range as well? How about cooldowns?

[Snowbluff]

Star Commander Horse, on 15 January 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

Best explanation I've read. As I've never played TT (unfortunately) I wouldn't know about the different makers.
That just applied to velocity? Range as well? How about cooldowns?

It's a lore difference. The best example I can think of is the UAC20 on the Ebon jaguar is like a 200+ mm gun, where other mechs have much smaller calibers but faster rates of fire. The AC20 is just a lump definition for a wide variably of high damage ,close range guns. Suffice it to say, it's a legitimate mess trying to model that in TT, so the abstractions works wonders.

So it hypothetically could apply to everything about a weapon. "Man, those Marauders are outfitted with the new Magnastar PPC. It hits fast."

Edited by Snowbluff, 15 January 2017 - 01:29 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 January 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

the Purpose of these it to not make any weapon Introduced replace another weapon,
as HACs are ACs not Gauss i dont see why they would have a Charge,

The Gauss charge-up was added to de-sync them from PPCs. It was never done as an aesthetic function. HVACs are very similar to the Gauss Rifle in function. That's why they will either not work like HVACs (speed, meters per second), or have a charge-up like Gauss, or some other weird nerf.

It leads me back to looking at base recycle times of all weapons or making the mechs tough enough to handle damage like battlemechs at the current 1.5x to 2x faster recycles MWO uses. I just foresee big problems because I know the second gen BattleTech weapons are better than the Gauss Rifle with no charge phase, and that is deemed as OP.

[Deathshade]

Lightfoot, on 14 January 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

Light Gauss Rifles: 8 damage/12 tons should, must not have a charge-up. If MWO can't handle this they should not advance the timeline. Period.

We could say the same about introducing the clans to the timeline.

I tried to tell people that we were too focused on balance when there was more tech coming in trickles. There is really no reason for placing in tech limitations so the other team can win some. This part of the timeline and you are supposed to be getting your *** handed to you. Later on the tech starts to level the fields imo.

[Andi Nagasia]

Lightfoot, on 15 January 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

The Gauss charge-up was added to de-sync them from PPCs. It was never done as an aesthetic function. HVACs are very similar to the Gauss Rifle in function. That's why they will either not work like HVACs (speed, meters per second), or have a charge-up like Gauss, or some other weird nerf.

It leads me back to looking at base recycle times of all weapons or making the mechs tough enough to handle damage like battlemechs at the current 1.5x to 2x faster recycles MWO uses. I just foresee big problems because I know the second gen BattleTech weapons are better than the Gauss Rifle with no charge phase, and that is deemed as OP.

i know why Gauss Charge up was added,
it was to Desync Gauss(Fast Moving / Low Heat / High Tonnage) with PPCs(Fast Moving / High Heat / Low Tonnage)
so Gauss got the Charge up to Desync it from PPCs and PPCs got their Velosity Nerfed,

but those problems dont appy to HAC, Why?
HAC are HOT & Heavy, the HAC10 having 7 Heat & 14Tons, and it has a fast Projectile,
its similar to Gauss, but it having such a high heat means that it is already Desynced with PPCs,
i dont think a charge up is at all necessary as it will make HAC10 useless vs the STD Gauss,
its like a lower damage Gauss that is much hotter and Instant,