460 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

so...wouldn't it make sense for the lighter, smaller weapon to be slower?

And DPS always matters. Yes, it's 15 ppfld, but 15 every 5 seconds, vs every 10, what's better? (obviously this is no tas extreme, that's for simple comparo).

Big thing is, clans are supposed to be all about dueling. I would say a reduction in range or velocity, making it a closer range weapon, would be more clan philosophy.

Of course, most clan players, seem to be rather against actually playing by clan philosophy, so probably not gonna work, lol.

In the current environment with the current clan mech setups, there is no way for clan mechs to EASILY win a duel vs the IS mechs they'd face. More PPD more often, and cooler puts the dueling squarely in the IS court.

Counter to lore. The Clans in LORE were quite superior to IS in every way imaginable. Here they are only slightly better ~10% better and every IS player in the game (in these threads) is constantly whining about how OP they are, f they'd just pull their heads out of their asses and built to mid range brawl, and fought moving firing lines in a mid range brawl, they'd roll people as easily as 228 does, provided they learn how to aim.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Because as it sits now, we are basically on equal footing...if you keep eroding things...eventually...you will just lose the clan player base because nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf...gets really ***** old, really fast.

Add in that we are already running mobile furnaces, we have no builds that are not Alpha boats (not worth running anyway)...clans are getting tired of people begging for pretty close balance to be tipped completely to the IS side. Notice how CW is just packed full of players right? Keep nerfing things...see what that does for you. Continually demoralizing half your player base always worked out well for every game company that tried it in the past...if you can find a company that survived doing that...ask them if they would do it differently on a second chance.

we are artificially on "even" footing. Relying on quirks as anything more than bandaids for the unfixable has always been, and will always be, sloppy and have too many areas it bites you in the but.

Again. Balance begins with the base tech.
Then the Weapons, then the chassis, and THEN you use quirks to fix what can't be balanced (hardpoints and hitboxes) as easily.

[Ultimax]

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

Funny but smurphy has the stats on the MGs the exact same. Try again.

You mean aside from only weighing half as much?

Try knowing what you are even talking about before posting.

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

And yes all IS lasers are superior to clan lasers due to COOLER and shorter COOLDOWNS (meaning even with less damage) they come out ahead in a Brawl.

... it's not even worth the effort.

[-Vompo-]

Blueduck, on 13 July 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Jaegar's and Golden Boy. Also compare these mechs ultra high mounted weapons perks compared to the our low slung ballistic pods.

Before anyone cheers and goes and gets a Golden Boy. I should mention that Golden boy has no ballistics on it at all so it's highly unlikely that it's a mech with high mounted gauss rifle.

You probably meant Grid Iron but those names are not even close to each other.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

And yes all IS lasers are superior to clan lasers due to COOLER and shorter COOLDOWNS (meaning even with less damage) they come out ahead in a Brawl.

I'll try to keep this in minding next time I am getting rectally reamed by a half dozen clan medium lasers at 750 meters......

I guess I'll ignore the part where ALL clan lasers have higher DPS than IS, too......

[Dimento Graven]

Wow... Clanners, seriously just... wow...

You people really do seem to believe the BS you're spewing.

It's not just a weapons vs. weapons balance that's at issue here, oh no, it's a totality of the systems that adds up to a massive imbalance when it comes to Clan vs. IS.

It's not just that clan weapons are lighter, shoot farther, hit harder, faster, it's that PLUS the true 'double' heat sinks, PLUS the XL that can survive a torso loss, PLUS the free CASE, PLUS the various clan TC's, etc. etc. etc. etc

It's very difficult for an IS pilot to build a 'mech that can hit as hard, as far, and as fast as typical clan 'mech. Does the IS pilot want a 'mech that is more survivable? Well, gotta give up the XL and take a massive speed hit, UNLESS, he's also willing to give up a LOT of fire power.

Yeah, sure, quirks compensate a bit, BUT, then when we get to CW (you remember don't you the original 'holy grail' of this game), since the system allows for Clans to cooperate AND also have Merc troops, AND allows for 12 clan vs 12 IS in matches, well, the IS loses the compensating 'greater numbers' factor in the CW arena as well.

But of course all the Clanners will whine, whine, whine, WHINE when the IS has ANYTHING that comes close to being equal to clan tech.

[Hit the Deck]

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

...
And yes all IS lasers are superior to clan lasers due to COOLER and shorter COOLDOWNS (meaning even with less damage) they come out ahead in a Brawl.

I think you forgot about small (pulse) lasers because in brawling situation, it's actually the weapon of choice (no ERLL and such). Clanners still dominates in this area I think, because of superior small (pulse) lasers and 1/2 weight SRMs. Consider this guy for example:

TBR-C

82 Alpha with 7.82 DPS. It's pretty scary.

I think Spheroids need quirked 'Mechs to fight against this.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

Wow... Clanners, seriously just... wow...

You people really do seem to believe the BS you're spewing.

It's not just a weapons vs. weapons balance that's at issue here, oh no, it's a totality of the systems that adds up to a massive imbalance when it comes to Clan vs. IS.

It's not just that clan weapons are lighter, shoot farther, hit harder, faster, it's that PLUS the true 'double' heat sinks, PLUS the XL that can survive a torso loss, PLUS the free CASE, PLUS the various clan TC's, etc. etc. etc. etc

It's very difficult for an IS pilot to build a 'mech that can hit as hard, as far, and as fast as typical clan 'mech. Does the IS pilot want a 'mech that is more survivable? Well, gotta give up the XL and take a massive speed hit, UNLESS, he's also willing to give up a LOT of fire power.

Yeah, sure, quirks compensate a bit, BUT, then when we get to CW (you remember don't you the original 'holy grail' of this game), since the system allows for Clans to cooperate AND also have Merc troops, AND allows for 12 clan vs 12 IS in matches, well, the IS loses the compensating 'greater numbers' factor in the CW arena as well.

But of course all the Clanners will whine, whine, whine, WHINE when the IS has ANYTHING that comes close to being equal to clan tech.

Clans don't have True Double heatsinks anymore than the IS does. Their external ones are simply 2 slots, instead of 3.

Hit the Deck, on 14 July 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

I think you forgot about small (pulse) lasers because in brawling situation, it's actually the weapon of choice (no ERLL and such). Clanners still dominates in this area I think, because of superior small (pulse) lasers and 1/2 weight SRMs. Consider this guy for example:

TBR-C

82 Alpha with 7.82 DPS. It's pretty scary.

I think Spheroids need quirked 'Mechs to fight against this.

and Clan ERSmalls are pretty dang effective, too

[Dimento Graven]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

Clans don't have True Double heatsinks anymore than the IS does. Their external ones are simply 2 slots, instead of 3.

...

Yes, that makes it truly "double". You can stack MORE heat sinks in Clan 'mechs than you can in IS. As opposed to the IS 'enhanced' heat sink that requires 3 slots.

It's a very nice advantage to have.

Quite a few IS 'mech Cheese builds would change SIGNIFICANTLY if they could have more available crit slots due to being able to use a 'smaller' heat sink.

[Wronka]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

Wow... Clanners, seriously just... wow... You people really do seem to believe the BS you're spewing. It's not just a weapons vs. weapons balance that's at issue here, oh no, it's a totality of the systems that adds up to a massive imbalance when it comes to Clan vs. IS. It's not just that clan weapons are lighter, shoot farther, hit harder, faster, it's that PLUS the true 'double' heat sinks, PLUS the XL that can survive a torso loss, PLUS the free CASE, PLUS the various clan TC's, etc. etc. etc. etc It's very difficult for an IS pilot to build a 'mech that can hit as hard, as far, and as fast as typical clan 'mech. Does the IS pilot want a 'mech that is more survivable? Well, gotta give up the XL and take a massive speed hit, UNLESS, he's also willing to give up a LOT of fire power. Yeah, sure, quirks compensate a bit, BUT, then when we get to CW (you remember don't you the original 'holy grail' of this game), since the system allows for Clans to cooperate AND also have Merc troops, AND allows for 12 clan vs 12 IS in matches, well, the IS loses the compensating 'greater numbers' factor in the CW arena as well. But of course all the Clanners will whine, whine, whine, WHINE when the IS has ANYTHING that comes close to being equal to clan tech.

But LORE says clan tech is supposed to be better so its okay

[Bishop Steiner]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Yes, that makes it truly "double". You can stack MORE heat sinks in Clan 'mechs than you can in IS. As opposed to the IS 'enhanced' heat sink that requires 3 slots.

It's a very nice advantage to have.

Quite a few IS 'mech Cheese builds would change SIGNIFICANTLY if they could have more available crit slots due to being able to use a 'smaller' heat sink.

No, truly double implies it vents twice the heat. Smaller, more compact? Yes. Definite advantage. You start throwing out terms like true double,s though, you obscure your own message.

[Dimento Graven]

Wronka, on 14 July 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

But LORE says clan tech is supposed to be better so its okay

If it was just that the tech was better, but in CW, IS was able to bring 'greater numbers' to the battles, I'd be ok with it.

THAT IS LORE.

What is NOT lore is the better tech, plus the equal numbers that Clans get to bring to the battles.

There is a decided lack of any sort of balance there.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

Wow... Clanners, seriously just... wow...

You people really do seem to believe the BS you're spewing.

It's not just a weapons vs. weapons balance that's at issue here, oh no, it's a totality of the systems that adds up to a massive imbalance when it comes to Clan vs. IS.

It's not just that clan weapons are lighter, shoot farther, hit harder, faster, it's that PLUS the true 'double' heat sinks, PLUS the XL that can survive a torso loss, PLUS the free CASE, PLUS the various clan TC's, etc. etc. etc. etc

It's very difficult for an IS pilot to build a 'mech that can hit as hard, as far, and as fast as typical clan 'mech. Does the IS pilot want a 'mech that is more survivable? Well, gotta give up the XL and take a massive speed hit, UNLESS, he's also willing to give up a LOT of fire power.

Yeah, sure, quirks compensate a bit, BUT, then when we get to CW (you remember don't you the original 'holy grail' of this game), since the system allows for Clans to cooperate AND also have Merc troops, AND allows for 12 clan vs 12 IS in matches, well, the IS loses the compensating 'greater numbers' factor in the CW arena as well.

But of course all the Clanners will whine, whine, whine, WHINE when the IS has ANYTHING that comes close to being equal to clan tech.

If you believe this...can I have some of what you are smoking?

[Dimento Graven]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

No, truly double implies it vents twice the heat. Smaller, more compact? Yes. Definite advantage. You start throwing out terms like true double,s though, you obscure your own message.

I don't think it was that obscured at all.

How about we just blame PGI for f'ing up the original meaning of the word "double" when they built the IS heat sink with TRIPLE the space requirements while doing A LOT LESS than DOUBLE the heat removal?

Gyrok, on 14 July 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

If you believe this...can I have some of what you are smoking?

What's untrue about any of that?

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

If it was just that the tech was better, but in CW, IS was able to bring 'greater numbers' to the battles, I'd be ok with it.

THAT IS LORE.

What is NOT lore is the better tech, plus the equal numbers that Clans get to bring to the battles.

There is a decided lack of any sort of balance there.

Then make it 5-10 versus 12-16 and give us full on clan tech from LORE!

We have been begging for that method of balance for 3 years...

If you un-nerf our stuff, you can have more mechs on the field. PROBLEM SOLVED!

[Wronka]

Hit the Deck, on 14 July 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

I think you forgot about small (pulse) lasers because in brawling situation, it's actually the weapon of choice (no ERLL and such). Clanners still dominates in this area I think, because of superior small (pulse) lasers and 1/2 weight SRMs. Consider this guy for example:

TBR-C

82 Alpha with 7.82 DPS. It's pretty scary.

I think Spheroids need quirked 'Mechs to fight against this.

That build is absolutely devastating. What is funny is that even this AS7-S cannot match it.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Then make it 5-10 versus 12-16 and give us full on clan tech from LORE!

We have been begging for that method of balance for 3 years...

If you un-nerf our stuff, you can have more mechs on the field. PROBLEM SOLVED!

Ah, so you agree then, nothing was incorrect about what I'd posted.

And you're right let's un-nerf EVERYTHING (IS tech included), AND, bring in 10 Clan vs. 12 IS in CW and have some fun.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Ah, so you agree then, nothing was incorrect about what I'd posted.

And you're right let's un-nerf EVERYTHING (IS tech included), AND, bring in 10 Clan vs. 12 IS in CW and have some fun.

No...most of what you said above was actually not true.

However, if they would un-nerf everything and make it asymmetrical...that would create a completely different set of circumstances, where as Clan Tech would actually...finally...be OP. Right now...people just ***** about what killed them last match, so everything is OP. Which means everything is mostly balanced if everything is being called OP.

Hit the Deck, on 14 July 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

I think you forgot about small (pulse) lasers because in brawling situation, it's actually the weapon of choice (no ERLL and such). Clanners still dominates in this area I think, because of superior small (pulse) lasers and 1/2 weight SRMs. Consider this guy for example:

TBR-C

82 Alpha with 7.82 DPS. It's pretty scary.

I think Spheroids need quirked 'Mechs to fight against this.

That, or they could stand at 330m with a thunderwub and obliterate it without any issues....

[Burktross]

Lily from animove, on 14 July 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

which battlevalue would a fully pimped Spider as people use it in MWO have compared to the usual Clanlights they use?

Do not forget, in MWO al IS mechs are totally pimped and not even any close to their TT BV and loadouts anymore..

SHD-5D (fedcom civil war tech)=== 1684bv
Stormcrow Prime === 2074bv

Now distribute that BV difference from 12 mechs and it adds up, leading to a disproportionate mech distribution

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

No...most of what you said above was actually not true.

AGAIN, point out what was incorrect, be specific.

Quote

However, if they would un-nerf everything and make it asymmetrical...that would create a completely different set of circumstances, where as Clan Tech would actually...finally...be OP. Right now...people just ***** about what killed them last match, so everything is OP. Which means everything is mostly balanced if everything is being called OP.

In the non-CW queue, theoretically there's clan tech on both sides so, balance is somewhat maintained, plus, the non-CW queue is more or less a 'free for all' queue anyway, it's only there for fun and personal epeen bragging rights.

CW has an actual 'long term score' that's maintained, and yes Clan Tech is supposed to be OP, but the IS countered it, slowly with matching technologies, and from the very beginning with a shitton of more numbers to throw at the Clans.

Quote

That, or they could stand at 330m with a thunderwub and obliterate it without any issues....

Except for all the f'ing other clan 'mechs with "ER mediums" melting the thunderwub from 750 meters... But WHATEVER.