460 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

It's a hasty generalization thrown out by someone too tired to remember the TT rules he last played 25 years ago. MY BAD.

Not an attack on you. But "hasty information" gets quoted as gospel far too soon. Thus, my feeling the need to correct it. These forums are full of enough misremembered stuff. Heck, had a former unit member telling us how "in the day, an Atlas carried a squad of infantry in the head.."

sigh

[Alienized]

this is what i think about dual gauss warhawk abominations...




ye, you really just slapped yourself with that loadout.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 July 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Yeah and these mechs are so far from competitive they need to be buffed in order to see use again.



The same reason UACs fire in burst mode and clan lasers have longer duration...

Clan UACs actually fire how ALL ACs are supposed to fire, I see that more as a screw up on PGI's part than as a balance move, but good luck getting ALL ACs to fire as they are supposed to, the IS 'Clan are OP' crowd would literally cause the forum servers to go up in flames, and we all know it.

Clan laser, I can see the logic behind that as well, more power in a laser is done through 1 of 2 methods, longer burn time OR more power being applied. Clan fusion engines aren't more powerful, exact same size engines produce the exact same power output, so it would need to be done via longer burn times. YES, I know, I'm being EXTREMELY simplistic with how lasers really work, but keep in mind the crowd we're dealing with here. They would NOT accept real working weapons grade lasers in this game, or any game for matter, and we know it, so I'm keeping it on terms they understand. Christ can you imagine the moaning and whining if PGI added X-Ray lasers and they couldn't SEE them? Seriously, remember the crowd, I know that that is not how you make lasers more powerful, and I'm well aware that the burn times in MWO are stupidly super high, but using the logic of BTech and a video game, longer burner lasers being more powerful makes sense.

As much sense as a bipedal walking tank does.....

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Which changes the fact he's wrong how?

It doesn't I just didn't get why comparing percent chance to explode in a Jager vs a Timby or Ebon justifies clan Gauss being lighter which is what the thread is about. It just seemed like you were saying "Poor Timber Wolf and Ebon Jaguar".

My bad.

I have already made a thread on how it would be cool to have the IS gauss be less fragile and less volatile to make Gauss-in-the-XL-side-torso not so foolhardy, but it was rejected because "something something my Timber Wolf is stuck with an XL 375 so it needs a 12 ton GR something something".

[Mawai]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Clan UACs actually fire how ALL ACs are supposed to fire, I see that more as a screw up on PGI's part than as a balance move, but good luck getting ALL ACs to fire as they are supposed to, the IS 'Clan are OP' crowd would literally cause the forum servers to go up in flames, and we all know it.

Clan laser, I can see the logic behind that as well, more power in a laser is done through 1 of 2 methods, longer burn time OR more power being applied. Clan fusion engines aren't more powerful, exact same size engines produce the exact same power output, so it would need to be done via longer burn times. YES, I know, I'm being EXTREMELY simplistic with how lasers really work, but keep in mind the crowd we're dealing with here. They would NOT accept real working weapons grade lasers in this game, or any game for matter, and we know it, so I'm keeping it on terms they understand. Christ can you imagine the moaning and whining if PGI added X-Ray lasers and they couldn't SEE them? Seriously, remember the crowd, I know that that is not how you make lasers more powerful, and I'm well aware that the burn times in MWO are stupidly super high, but using the logic of BTech and a video game, longer burner lasers being more powerful makes sense.

As much sense as a bipedal walking tank does.....

Hehe

You do realize that you can't see ANY laser beam unless the light scatters off something in the air? The more dust or other particles in the air ... the greater the beam attenuation and the greater the scattered light ... making it easier to see. Without that, you won't see a thing no matter what actual colour the laser might be. For example, in a near vacuum like HPG, lasers are essentially invisible.

[Mister Blastman]

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

OR you could use the orininal TT Heat scale where one could NOT fire more than 30 heat worth of weapons without exploding...

That would be nice.

Ultimatum X, on 14 July 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

The concept of 10v12 is flawed at the very core, and would likely be a nightmare scenario for PGI - and probably for the playerbase as well.

It is simple if then logic.

If 'mech is Clan - this side. If 'mech is IS - that side. And you have two pools. I'd like to see it at least tried. It couldn't hurt. After all this game has been through, why not?

Nothing has worked yet. And it beats nerfing the crap out of existing Clan stuff.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 July 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

It doesn't I just didn't get why comparing percent chance to explode in a Jager vs a Timby or Ebon justifies clan Gauss being lighter which is what the thread is about. It just seemed like you were saying "Poor Timber Wolf and Ebon Jaguar".

My bad.

I have already made a thread on how it would be cool to have the IS gauss be less fragile and less volatile to make Gauss-in-the-XL-side-torso not so foolhardy, but it was rejected because "something something my Timber Wolf is stuck with an XL 375 so it needs a 12 ton GR something something".

Lots of options

• 3KM/s travel speed (MOAR magnets)
  
• 10 damage explosion, 100% chance
  
• 5s cooldown, no charge (.25 greater recycle to ~half second faster)
  
• HP changes

But, as I said earlier, .XML edits are hard.

[Johnny Z]

Making both techs the same would suck. Omni mechs would lose their character same goes for the other side.

But there is no arguement there has to be a fair chance for all mechs regardless the size or tech usage.

Anyway the idea that makes the most sense is that Inner Sphere needs more durability buffs. Clan less weight and less space, higher damage, longer range items stay the same and in exchange IS get more durability. This could go for the engines even heat sinks, what ever.

Oh ya and change the 3 stage guass mechanic for both techs finally. thanks. Gauss being for program assisted only is just so lame.

I have one issue with Omni Tech though. It shouldnt get free C.A.S.E.They should have to euip case if they want those benefits, not have it ZERO space and ZERO weight.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 July 2015 - 01:35 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mawai, on 14 July 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Hehe

You do realize that you can't see ANY laser beam unless the light scatters off something in the air? The more dust or other particles in the air ... the greater the beam attenuation and the greater the scattered light ... making it easier to see. Without that, you won't see a thing no matter what actual colour the laser might be. For example, in a near vacuum like HPG, lasers are essentially invisible.

Hence the disclaimer, I know what real lasers are like, I've seen and used them, but this is a video game, and people would have all sorts of fits if they were given lasers that really work like weapons grade lasers.

Why can't I see the beam? I can't avoid damage because the burn time is SO short! Why don't my lasers work in the snowstorm?

Seriously...lasers are a crappy weapon in reality, way to easy to totally negate, it's just phased light after all.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Seriously...lasers are a crappy weapon in reality, way to easy to totally negate, it's just phased light after all.

Lasers wouldn't even damage the outer haul of a Galaxy-class Starship.

[DONTOR]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 July 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

I could have sworn I saw a dual gauss Mad Dog. Is that possible or am I imagining that?

You can but its not really viable, same goes for quickdraw IV, BJs, TBRs, and HBRs.

[Bishop Steiner]

DONTOR, on 14 July 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

You can but its not really viable, same goes for quickdraw IV, BJs, TBRs, and HBRs.

heck, even dual UAC10 not terribly sustainable on the MDD, and thats 4 tons less on the guns alone.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[InspectorG]

Johnny Z, on 13 July 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

How can one guild be asked to field more players than another guild because one of the guilds is piloting inferior mechs. This is what 10 v 12 would do. How many guilds would choose to pilot the inferior mechs knowing they would need more active pilots to face other guilds. Is it fair to ask that of some guilds and not others? Does fairness even compute with the guys asking for 10 v 12?

Not that im a big Lore guy...

But one of the MAIN THEMES of Clan Invasion is one side was terribly out-gunned. LORE.

And most of the people who did Stock Mech Mondays WANTED the experience of numerous but weaker IS mechs vs fewer OP Clan mechs.

We did after all, switch and trade who was Clan and IS...

The numbers that worked was 5 vs 8 and 8 vs 12. But that was pre-quirk. Most agreed that was a good 'feel'.

[InspectorG]

Lugh, on 14 July 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

OR you could use the orininal TT Heat scale where one could NOT fire more than 30 heat worth of weapons without exploding...

I would support that, really.

But...

Just how many twitch-kids would like play that was slowed to that pace? MWO would really tilt to the 'Sim' side with a hard 30

I used to drop Stock only and the play was WAY more slowed down.

[InspectorG]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

This isn't even Battletech anymore. All the crap that has been changed--this is some freak show robot simulation where we're constantly adding in magic this, fairy tale that. It's ludicrous.

True but personally i would say less ludicrous but more...necessary. TT games usually dont port to FPS all that well. And face it, PGI/IGP didnt do their homework.

They are balancing on the fly...sad in a way, pretty amazing in another. I just hope they have enough of a clue now to learn from past fails.

[Kristov Kerensky]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

I would support that, really.

But...

Just how many twitch-kids would like play that was slowed to that pace? MWO would really tilt to the 'Sim' side with a hard 30

I used to drop Stock only and the play was WAY more slowed down.

MW2 used the TT heat scale and it worked just fine. I had a Dire Wolf with 8 ERPPCs, and I could fire 4 without immediate shutdown as an alpha. Alpha of 6 was immediate shutdown. Alpha of 8 was immediate self destruction, no warning, no shutdown, Mech simply exploded as soon as I pulled the trigger. Upside, whatever I was aimed at was probably dead as well. Running Mechs with ammo, you really watched your heat because that stuff WOULD explode if you ran too hot too often. Hell you really watched your heat period because the TT heat scale effects just plain suck as your heat builds up.

We did however have real working DHS, and heat neutral wasn't impossible to achieve with large alphas, exactly as is it works in TT. Game play was just as fast and furious as what we see in MWO, faster really, since MW2 used TT values for everything, weapons damage, ranges, armor and interior structure values. ERPPCs and Gauss would 1 shot a cockpit every time, provided you could thread the needle of the huge spherical hitboxes used in MW2. DFAs could actually take 3 to 5 bounces on a Mech's head to kill it And most of us carried enough of an alpha to 1 shot anything under 60 tons, Clan Mechs after all.

The TT scale doesn't slow down the game much unless you are running a bad build to be honest, it just makes certain over the top builds suicide, while we can actually get away with using those in MWO.

[InspectorG]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

The mech/class balance is terrible because of the core mechanics. If you allow a 75 - 100 ton 'mech dump 50 - 70 pts of damage into a single torso panel, the smaller 'mechs are just going to spontaneously combust.

One simple solution is removing convergence (NO cone of fire, no RNG!) and while not perfect (there are a few big 'mechs that will be fine regardless), the smaller, narrower 'mechs will naturally have more concentrated fire against the bigger ones and tend to do more damage per panel than a wider behemoth can.

12v12 doesn't help smaller 'mechs, either. 8v8 would help--but some folks not even that would help.

How would you replace the current convergence model without CoF? Limited weapon groupings with cooldown between groups? Intrigued but not quite following you.


Another 'solve' for the weight problem is heavies and assaults are way too agile.
Nerf turn rate/twist rate. Nerf arm-movement rate, make them very 'forward-centric'. This buffs light into a slow-heavy/assault hunter that SHOULD scare lone or out of position fat mechs. If an average assault took 8-10 seconds to about face, that would really affect play and create some roles.

The other thing is the skill tree needs a redo. Complete overhaul.

Also nerf heavy/assault sensor range, expand certain medium and most light sensor range.

PGI needs a model for just how much Alpha/DPS/mobility each class/variant should have and go from there. relate that to maps and objectives.

[InspectorG]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

The TT scale doesn't slow down the game much unless you are running a bad build to be honest, it just makes certain over the top builds suicide, while we can actually get away with using those in MWO.

I never got to play MW2. Just BT back in the day.

[InspectorG]

Dimento Graven, on 14 July 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

But of course all the Clanners will whine, whine, whine, WHINE when the IS has ANYTHING that comes close to being equal to clan tech.

Is has Thunderwubs, Grid Irons, FIRESTARTERS, spear wall phalanx of STALKERS, Quickdrawls, and Wolverine.

I have dropped MANY times as clan with their OP tech that couldnt even.

The Lore and the spirit of Clan Invasion was that the Clans WERE INTENDED TO BE OP!!! GASP!!!
They were 'balanced' by cost/ numbers/ and 'honor' tactics.

Perhaps the solution lays in that direction instead of everyone having the same mech but different sprites???

[Johnny Z]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

I would support that, really.

But...

Just how many twitch-kids would like play that was slowed to that pace? MWO would really tilt to the 'Sim' side with a hard 30

I used to drop Stock only and the play was WAY more slowed down.

World of Warships seems to be doing ok, even War Thunder, the better of the two plane games I heard, both are slower paced than Mechwarrior Online. I have free trial of World of Warships myself and its fun but not 1/10 the game Mechwarrior is now and especially after Mechwarrior gets more features.

Although I am almost certain World Of Infantry will come out some day and they may join all the games together, which would be cool. But again its not sci-fi or half as cool as Mechwarrior, straight up.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 July 2015 - 03:22 PM.