Jump to content

Would You Take A Longer Cool-Down If You Could Take 15Damage C-Er-Ppcs? Discussion!


96 replies to this topic

#41 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 14 July 2015 - 05:24 AM

View PostUltimatum X, on 14 July 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:


It shows you chose the wrong faction you freebirth scrublord peasant!


However, in our magnanimity we will reduce the heat of your lasers with a corresponding reduction of range.

So your LLAS will only cost a mere 5 heat to fire, the range will become reduced to 325m.


This will give you a clear minor advantage once you manage to cross the field against our endless rows of massive pinpoint alpha sniper god-mechs.

....am hoping that is meant tongue in cheek.... ;) (hard to tell on these forums, some times)


since not balancing corresponding weapons to each other, ...is usually a bad idea.

#42 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 14 July 2015 - 05:59 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 14 July 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:


Because. Balance™.

Oh... so no apparent reason. Got it. ;)

#43 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 23,969 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 06:11 AM

Quote

t is a melon shaped Slug! There is little room for splash damage from a slug flying at mach5! It'll punch a hole like nobody's business though.


maybe the clan gauss projectile is less dense and lighter weight and thus more prone to spiraling around inside the target? hence why it would would deal splash damage as well as weigh 3 tons less.

I personally think clan gauss should do splash damage just like the CERPPC. That would balance out the fact it weighs 3 tons less.

every other clan weapon has a downside that limits pinpoint damage. why is clan gauss the exception? there is no good reason for it. clan gauss should disperse damage like every other clan weapon. its called being consistent.


And CERPPC and ISERPPC need their heat lowered by 1-2 points respectively.

Edited by Khobai, 14 July 2015 - 06:24 AM.


#44 Mister Blastman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 8,444 posts
  • LocationIn my Mech (Atlanta, GA)

Posted 14 July 2015 - 06:29 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 July 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

Oh... so no apparent reason. Got it. ;)


Err. No. You don't get it. Balance™ is a good thing.

You can't have gobstoppers be better than lemonheads, because if they are, nobody will want to try the boston baked beans or runts, either.

Err. Hmm. This is harder to do with candy than I thought.

So let's try it with Doctor Who.

If you let PPCs and Gauss be the equivalent of the sonic screwdriver, why bother using anything else?

Posted Image

You can't let them be good at everything. They must have drawbacks. Useful at all ranges mean why take anything else?

When I was a kid, most I knew wanted his pen. It was uber.



But his pen was powerful. Too powerful. So not-so-powerful people became jealous of it and... err... that's another topic for off-topic. ANYWAYS. You see my point by now, hopefully. ;)

Edited by Mister Blastman, 14 July 2015 - 06:30 AM.


#45 Ultimax

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,979 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 07:21 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

....am hoping that is meant tongue in cheek.... ;) (hard to tell on these forums, some times)


since not balancing corresponding weapons to each other, ...is usually a bad idea.



Yes, it was, sorry. Sometimes I can be a bit dry. ;)

#46 Revis Volek

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 7,247 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationBack in the Pilots chair

Posted 14 July 2015 - 07:46 AM

View PostEider, on 13 July 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Brawl? who says they would brawl? i could still see that as useful however at close ranges. Not where the issue is at.
By cycle weapons i dont just mean the erppc, clans have very light weapons they could switch to others while its on cooldown and use it as a burst. That was part of my guass example as guass causes no heat so they would switch to those while cooldown. Finally yes its not 12.5 direct but 10 plus the 2.5 still better than the 10 from IS. By a factor of 2.5. Finally now that the adr can remove the head laser not a big deal to mount them.



You must not CLAN ERPPC much, you have no room for anything but DHS....Let alone gauss and ammo.

6 seconds is WAAAAY to long even with 15 ppfld. Needs to be shorter then that but i dont really see WHY you feel we need to the change Andi?

PPC's and ERPPC's would be fine if they were not so damn hot.....especially with the speed increase of late.

#47 Sjorpha

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 4,477 posts
  • LocationSweden

Posted 14 July 2015 - 07:51 AM

PPCs in general feel fine to me after the velocity buff, don't really need a change.

I'd say the IS PPC is pretty equal to the Clan ERPPC now, both are very useful and have a place in many builds.

The IS ERPPC is pretty obselete on unquirked mechs though, so if any change is needed it would some minor buff to that one, maybe lower heat to 13 or give it a velocity buff to sync better with gauss, but it's pretty fine as the niche weapon it is also, there are a few rare mechs that use it well still.

#48 Revis Volek

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 7,247 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationBack in the Pilots chair

Posted 14 July 2015 - 08:21 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 14 July 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

PPCs in general feel fine to me after the velocity buff, don't really need a change.

I'd say the IS PPC is pretty equal to the Clan ERPPC now, both are very useful and have a place in many builds.

The IS ERPPC is pretty obselete on unquirked mechs though, so if any change is needed it would some minor buff to that one, maybe lower heat to 13 or give it a velocity buff to sync better with gauss, but it's pretty fine as the niche weapon it is also, there are a few rare mechs that use it well still.



They purposely desynched Gauss and PPC a long time ago while nerfing JJ's to stop the poptart meta....i dont see them changing that back to the way it was.

#49 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 14 July 2015 - 09:04 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 13 July 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

so Would you Take a longer Cool-down if you could take 15Damage C-ER-PPCs?

=Proposed C-ER-PPC Stats=
Weapon,...........Damage,.Heat,.Speed,.Cool-down,.Range,.Max Range,.DPS,...Tons,.Crits,
(C)C-ER-PPC,......15.........15.....1200........6.0..........810..........1620........2.5........6.......2...
=Current PPC Stats=
(C)C-ER-PPC,.10(2.5x2)...15.....1200........4.0..........810..........1620.....2.5(3.75).6.......2...
(IS)PPC,...............10.........10.....1100........4.0........90-540.......1080.........2.5.......7.......3...
(IS)ER-PPC,.........10.........15.....1200........4.0..........810..........1620.........2.5.......7.......3...
so +2 Seconds of Cool-Down(6) making ti the longest Cycle time of any MWO weapon,
for 15PPFLD, that cant be used to Brawl too well, and no longer Syncs with Gauss,

Good Trade or Bad Trade?

Thoughts Comments Concerns?
Thanks,


your IS PPC's don't do 15 damage deal with it.

#50 kapusta11

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Little Helper
  • Little Helper
  • 3,854 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 11:12 AM

Sure thing I would. 15 damage, 15 heat, 2000 speed, 10 sec cooldown, seems fair.

#51 Saint Scarlett Johan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Hearing Impaired
  • Hearing Impaired
  • 3,349 posts
  • LocationOn the Delta side of Vicksburg

Posted 14 July 2015 - 11:17 AM

Only if the IS gets three PPCs/ERPPCs without ghost heat.



#52 Revis Volek

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 7,247 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationBack in the Pilots chair

Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:35 PM

View PostLord Scarlett Johan, on 14 July 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Only if the IS gets three PPCs/ERPPCs without ghost heat.



I'd buy an AWS if that happened....EVER!

Edited by DarthRevis, 14 July 2015 - 12:36 PM.


#53 Weeny Machine

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 4,014 posts
  • LocationAiming for the flat top (B. Murray)

Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:03 PM

View PostLord Scarlett Johan, on 14 July 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Only if the IS gets three PPCs/ERPPCs without ghost heat.


I see no problems with that anyway. There are builds out there which can load up 45-70 points of damage in similar weight classes which can carry 3 PPCs. A 30 point alpha - especially with that heat, quirks or not, (and thus cannot be spammed) isn't really raising an eyebrow. Or do I miss something?

#54 LordKnightFandragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,239 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:59 PM

View PostBush Hopper, on 14 July 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:


I see no problems with that anyway. There are builds out there which can load up 45-70 points of damage in similar weight classes which can carry 3 PPCs. A 30 point alpha - especially with that heat, quirks or not, (and thus cannot be spammed) isn't really raising an eyebrow. Or do I miss something?



Cuz our hard point inflation, TTK, quirks and all that is seriously outta wack. When PPC,s the most powerful energy weapon in the game are mostly a joke, something is off horribly.

#55 Saint Scarlett Johan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Hearing Impaired
  • Hearing Impaired
  • 3,349 posts
  • LocationOn the Delta side of Vicksburg

Posted 14 July 2015 - 02:27 PM

View PostDarthRevis, on 14 July 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:



I'd buy an AWS if that happened....EVER!

View PostBush Hopper, on 14 July 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:


I see no problems with that anyway. There are builds out there which can load up 45-70 points of damage in similar weight classes which can carry 3 PPCs. A 30 point alpha - especially with that heat, quirks or not, (and thus cannot be spammed) isn't really raising an eyebrow. Or do I miss something?


Both of my Awesomes would love it.

But so would my 732. She'd love it long time, too. She's sad, sitting in the hangar, collecting dust, reminiscing about the days she was Queen. Wondering why the clans get the Direwhale that can 50 PPFLD while her 45 PPFLD isn't okay

#56 DONTOR

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,806 posts
  • LocationStuck on a piece of Commando in my Ice Ferret

Posted 14 July 2015 - 02:28 PM

Bet ur sweet ass I would, 6 seconds would be fine for 15 damage.

#57 LordKnightFandragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,239 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 03:25 PM

View PostDONTOR, on 14 July 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Bet ur sweet ass I would, 6 seconds would be fine for 15 damage.

5s

#58 IraqiWalker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 9,682 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 14 July 2015 - 03:52 PM

I'm gonna make this quick, because I noticed a few people bring it up:

Anyone that argues for removing gauss charge should have their posting-on-balance-things privileges removed.

Look, Gauss deals 15 damage instant, PP FLD wherever you want it. Without charge, it is hands down the best ballistic weapon in the game, at all ranges, by a mile. At least with charge, the other ballistics can have a place.

Long cooldown means diddly when you're pumping 15 damage. Especially at zero heat.

So far. Gauss charge has been the BEST balance decision ever made by PGI.

Now, on to why I think 15 PP FLD on C-ERPPCs is bad for the game:

1- We don't need more burst damage

2- Increasing cooldowns means squat at long range engagements. Same with heat. Especially on very mobile weapons platforms like clan mechs, that average 90+Kph across all chassis. This means that short of IS lights, nothing in the game will catch them, and they can always dictate the range of the engagement, allowing them to cool off at their own leisure, and fire at their own leisure.

3- C-ERPPCs are already the best PPCs in the game. Heat efficient, Best damage from a PPC weapon, and lighter and smaller than their IS counterparts. They really don't need to be improved.

Now, when trying to balance long range weapons, increasing heat, or cooldown are ineffective, or downright bad decisions.

Long range weapons are NEVER about DPS. Not a single one of them cares about DPS. Except for the ERLL. All other deliver burst damage, that's what really matters. So they pop up. Shoot you, and hide. As long as they keep you at range, heat, and cooldown are ineffective, and have zero impact on them.

So those two factors are already ineffective to begin with, but they are more so with clan mechs, who tend to be on the fast side overall (DWF excluded).

Being able to hit you only once every 10 seconds is irrelevant when I can always hit you, and you can't hit back at all, and if you do get to hit back, you hit back for a lot less (33% less, or from the other side. I hit you for 50% more)

When balancing long range weapons, find a way to make them not outperform literally every other weapon at every range.

The Gauss Rifle was just flat out superior to all other ballistics at the ranges where they were supposed to be good. So we slapped a charge mechanic on it. That kept it true to the flavor of the weapon, and it's purpose, while making it difficult to use in short, and medium range (a good way of representing then minimum range it had in TT).

So find something like that for C-ERPPCs, and giving them 15 PP FLD might become reasonable.

All I can say is that you won't get results by tweaking the stats. You need a mechanical modification on the weapon. Like making it fire 2 bolts, in very rapid succession, or something else that I haven't thought of.


Spoiler


View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:



Cuz our hard point inflation, TTK, quirks and all that is seriously outta wack. When PPC,s the most powerful energy weapon in the game are mostly a joke, something is off horribly.

I'm sorry, but PPCs have never been a joke. Even when they were slowed down considerably, they were still very powerful. My 2xGauss 2xERPPC King Crab can attest to that. Got over 150K in mech XP on it with just that build, and I haven't piloted it in that config since before they buffed PPCs, and ERPPCs in this last patch.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 July 2015 - 03:49 PM.


#59 Templar Dane

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 1,057 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 03:57 PM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 13 July 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

so Would you Take heavy outnumber fight 10v16 and ghost heat hitting at firing just 2 weapons if you could take 15Damage C-ER-PPCs?


That would depend on if IS pilots would remove endo, shave off armor [a lot of stock mechs didn't have max armor], and downgrade to single heat sinks.

#60 Templar Dane

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 1,057 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 04:06 PM

View PostLord Scarlett Johan, on 14 July 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Only if the IS gets three PPCs/ERPPCs without ghost heat.


Unghosted that's 45 heat for 3x IS ERPPC.

With an awesome's 25% heat quirks as we have ingame RIGHT NOW........3x ERPPC = 47.925 heat.





10 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 10 guests, 0 anonymous users