65 replies to this topic

[RedDevil]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 July 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

TT Hits:
3+5 = 8 2+2 = 4 3+1 = 4 1+6 = 7 1+6 = 7 2+4 = 6 1+6 = 7 6+2 = 8 6+1 = 7 6+1 = 7 2+1 = 3 2+5 = 7 6+5 = 11 1+2 = 3 4+5 = 9 3+6 = 9 3+1 = 4 6+1 = 7 6+3 = 9 2+3 = 5 5+2 = 7 6+1 = 7 2+5 = 7 4+1 = 5 5+2 = 7 4+2 = 6 4+6 = 10 2+4 = 6 3+3 = 6

17 of 29 (59%) into 3 torso locations(37.5% of possible for front) using a very random number generator.

This. People keep saying random hit locations as if your weapons scatter all over the place evenly. You're rolling 2D6, so your shots are weighted to come up as 7's most often, and 12 and 1's rarely. This leads most shots to hit center of mass, just like in MWO.

Edited by reddevil, 14 July 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Paigan, on 14 July 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Please stop editing other people's posts with what you MEAN they should have meant.
You did that with my post somewhere else and it is (objectively) very arrogant and rude.

Write what you mean in your post, not in some hardly noticeable editing of someone else's.

I'll take it under advisement, but doubt I'll change what I've been doing for a very very long time.

BTW... Its fairly arrogant of you to think you have a right to tell me how I should construct my posts. You are not one of my Parents, a former teacher of mine, or in any position to tell me what I should and should not do.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 July 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

you should try them more often. Not always good, in fact, often bad. Makes a nice challenge. Yes, I can get 1000 dmg and 5 kills in my minmax MetaTimby....but it's much more satisfying to get 500 dmg and 2 -3 kills in my SMN-Prime, stock.

Because I actually have to TRY, to succeed.

But my placement on the team is determined by my past scores in the other mechs and the loss of damage is my avoidable fault that affects others. Most stock mechs are the Yugo of tech in this game. Not all mechs are equal, but most stock mechs are still below many entry level noob builds. If everyone is playing them in private matches that is a great challenge, but not in any open que. All they are is a bone for fan boys, who I hope do not believe the lie.

[Bishop Steiner]

Chuck YeaGurr, on 14 July 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

But my placement on the team is determined by my past scores in the other mechs and the loss of damage is my avoidable fault that affects others. Most stock mechs are the Yugo of tech in this game. Not all mechs are equal, but most stock mechs are still below many entry level noob builds. If everyone is playing them in private matches that is a great challenge, but not in any open que. All they are is a bone for fan boys, who I hope do not believe the lie.

350 matches in a bone stock SMN Prime.... guess I believe it.

[Koniving]

Summon3r, on 13 July 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

should a stock mech in the game not be able to alpha once from zero heat and not shut down?

for example a WHK-PRIME minus its lrm10 cannot alpha its 4 erppc, does that not seem wrong?

By technicality and the lore definition of an alpha strike -- it is unsafe for almost all 'Mechs to alpha strike. It is expressly written as a rare, last resort from a desperate pilot that is either already on death's door or praying to escape said door.

That is to say...



That's when you alpha strike -- and even then chances are if your mech isn't sufficiently cooled, you probably will die as a result....by being cooked alive. (Temperatures of over "60%" of the 'Mech threshold uncooled in a 10 second period are dangerous enough to cause 1st degree burns to the pilot and over 63.33% can cause ammunition explosion if sustained for several seconds). The RNG factor of the ruleset is to create the chance possibility that said attack will be spread or tightly packed together thermally (as in did the pilot fire then pause and fire? Did the pilot chain fire? Was it truly alpha striked? Has this heat been constantly pushed?) If said damage/effects trigger, it's because the chance of pilot error (i.e. "ZOMG ALPHA STRIKEZ R KEWL") had occurred and said moron fired weapons too closely together, thus hitting that heat all at once rather than across 10 seconds, overwhelming the heatsinks and thus -- issues.

All said and done... In TT with basic rules, I mostly hit a shutdown regardless. In tabletop (Megamek) with heatsink thresholds (heatsink taxing) turned on, in 3 separate attempts with 3 identical warhawk primes...
1) Melted 1 heatsink, caused an ammo explosion, was injured and lost consciousness. Mech fell over on shutdown.
2) Melted 1 heatsink, did not cause an ammo explosion, was burned and did not lose consciousness. Mech did not fall over. Mech did not shut down.
3) Melted 1 heatsink, did not cause an ammo explosion, was not burned, remained conscious. Mech shut down but did not fall.

This was just firing the 4 ER PPCs.

Doing a true alpha strike, same 3 mechs but under a new start and perfect conditions (btw not moving on all instances).
1) Melted a heatsink. Ammo explosion. Was triple injured. Stayed conscious. Mech fell down. Pilot died during the next 10 seconds (due to the unarmed mech that I shot Stackpoling on me in an explosion during the next turn, caused from falling over after trying to get back up repeatedly when the shot I delivered removed an arm, side torso, leg, and all CT armor in a single blow).
2) Melted 2 heatsinks. Ammo explosion. Was double injured. Lost consciousness. Mech fell down. Cockpit was destroyed. Pilot died instantly. Yay faceplant.
3) Melted 0 heatsinks (miraculously). No ammo explosion. Mech shut down. Pilot stayed conscious and was not injured. Mech did not fall over. Was curious. Could not boot back up for 30 seconds. Pilot did take injury after 10 seconds of waiting. Ammo also blew up during that time.

So, yeah. Stock builds aren't perfect. Even if they ~almost~ universally seem to perform better than MWO meta builds on tabletop.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 14 July 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

By technicality and the lore definition of an alpha strike -- it is unsafe for almost all 'Mechs to alpha strike. It is expressly written as a rare, last resort from a desperate pilot that is either already on death's door or praying to escape said door.

That is to say...



That's when you alpha strike -- and even then chances are if your mech isn't sufficiently cooled, you probably will die as a result....by being cooked alive. (Temperatures of over "60%" of the 'Mech threshold uncooled in a 10 second period are dangerous enough to cause 1st degree burns to the pilot and over 63.33% can cause ammunition explosion if sustained for several seconds). The RNG factor of the ruleset is to create the chance possibility that said attack will be spread or tightly packed together thermally (as in did the pilot fire then pause and fire? Did the pilot chain fire? Was it truly alpha striked? Has this heat been constantly pushed?) If said damage/effects trigger, it's because the chance of pilot error (i.e. "ZOMG ALPHA STRIKEZ R KEWL") had occurred and said moron fired weapons too closely together, thus hitting that heat all at once rather than across 10 seconds, overwhelming the heatsinks and thus -- issues.

All said and done... In TT with basic rules, I mostly hit a shutdown regardless. In tabletop (Megamek) with heatsink thresholds (heatsink taxing) turned on, in 3 separate attempts with 3 identical warhawk primes...
1) Melted 1 heatsink, caused an ammo explosion, was injured and lost consciousness. Mech fell over on shutdown.
2) Melted 1 heatsink, did not cause an ammo explosion, was burned and did not lose consciousness. Mech did not fall over. Mech did not shut down.
3) Melted 1 heatsink, did not cause an ammo explosion, was not burned, remained conscious. Mech shut down but did not fall.

This was just firing the 4 ER PPCs.

Doing a true alpha strike, same 3 mechs but under a new start and perfect conditions (btw not moving on all instances).
1) Melted a heatsink. Ammo explosion. Was triple injured. Stayed conscious. Mech fell down. Pilot died during the next 10 seconds (due to the unarmed mech that I shot Stackpoling on me in an explosion during the next turn, caused from falling over after trying to get back up repeatedly when the shot I delivered removed an arm, side torso, leg, and all CT armor in a single blow).
2) Melted 2 heatsinks. Ammo explosion. Was double injured. Lost consciousness. Mech fell down. Cockpit was destroyed. Pilot died instantly. Yay faceplant.
3) Melted 0 heatsinks (miraculously). No ammo explosion. Mech shut down. Pilot stayed conscious and was not injured. Mech did not fall over. Was curious. Could not boot back up for 30 seconds. Pilot did take injury after 10 seconds of waiting. Ammo also blew up during that time.

So, yeah. Stock builds aren't perfect. Even if they ~almost~ universally seem to perform better than MWO meta builds on tabletop.

you really gotta stop looking at non canon megamek rules as gospel bro........

In TT legal rules there is no special effects for any alpha. If you have enough heatsinks, you dissipate the heat.
http://www.sarna.net..._strike_(Tactic)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Koniving, on 14 July 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

By technicality and the lore definition of an alpha strike -- it is unsafe for almost all 'Mechs to alpha strike. It is expressly written as a rare, last resort from a desperate pilot that is either already on death's door or praying to escape said door.

That is to say...



That's when you alpha strike -- and even then chances are if your mech isn't sufficiently cooled, you probably will die as a result....by being cooked alive. (Temperatures of over "60%" of the 'Mech threshold uncooled in a 10 second period are dangerous enough to cause 1st degree burns to the pilot and over 63.33% can cause ammunition explosion if sustained for several seconds). The RNG factor of the ruleset is to create the chance possibility that said attack will be spread or tightly packed together thermally (as in did the pilot fire then pause and fire? Did the pilot chain fire? Was it truly alpha striked? Has this heat been constantly pushed?) If said damage/effects trigger, it's because the chance of pilot error (i.e. "ZOMG ALPHA STRIKEZ R KEWL") had occurred and said moron fired weapons too closely together, thus hitting that heat all at once rather than across 10 seconds, overwhelming the heatsinks and thus -- issues.

All said and done... In TT with basic rules, I mostly hit a shutdown regardless. In tabletop (Megamek) with heatsink thresholds (heatsink taxing) turned on, in 3 separate attempts with 3 identical warhawk primes...
1) Melted 1 heatsink, caused an ammo explosion, was injured and lost consciousness. Mech fell over on shutdown.
2) Melted 1 heatsink, did not cause an ammo explosion, was burned and did not lose consciousness. Mech did not fall over. Mech did not shut down.
3) Melted 1 heatsink, did not cause an ammo explosion, was not burned, remained conscious. Mech shut down but did not fall.

This was just firing the 4 ER PPCs.

Doing a true alpha strike, same 3 mechs but under a new start and perfect conditions (btw not moving on all instances).
1) Melted a heatsink. Ammo explosion. Was triple injured. Stayed conscious. Mech fell down. Pilot died during the next 10 seconds (due to the unarmed mech that I shot Stackpoling on me in an explosion during the next turn, caused from falling over after trying to get back up repeatedly when the shot I delivered removed an arm, side torso, leg, and all CT armor in a single blow).
2) Melted 2 heatsinks. Ammo explosion. Was double injured. Lost consciousness. Mech fell down. Cockpit was destroyed. Pilot died instantly. Yay faceplant.
3) Melted 0 heatsinks (miraculously). No ammo explosion. Mech shut down. Pilot stayed conscious and was not injured. Mech did not fall over. Was curious. Could not boot back up for 30 seconds. Pilot did take injury after 10 seconds of waiting. Ammo also blew up during that time.

So, yeah. Stock builds aren't perfect. Even if they ~almost~ universally seem to perform better than MWO meta builds on tabletop.

Unless you are a Thug. Then you can Alpha every turn and run while staying at -5 heat. And Stock Mechs are built to be Hot in most instances. Meanwhile an Intelligent designer (such as myself) can turn all but a few Classics into cool running war machines capable of actually fighting like a engine of war.

[Kain Demos]

Mors Draco, on 14 July 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

Man, I used to love throwing an alpha strike (minus the useless flamer, so i guess not a true alpha) out in my Warhawk C. 2 large pulse, 2 erppc, AND a targeting computer?!. Played it in conjunction with Mechwarrior RPG so you had a good pilot with low rolls in it. Plus the sucker was almost heat neutral. You could basically fire all 4 major weapons every round without worry. God, sometimes I wish you could do that cheese in MWO. Pew pew pew pew. "Die, stravag freebirth scum, die!" So much fun.

Anyone want to play megamek? I so miss TT now....

I am loving that build in MWO. I use it on my PRIME for c-bill bonus though.

2 x CLPL
2 x CERPPC
25 DHS
MK IV TC

Use the Prime RA and C LA for -8% CERPPC heat and -4% CLPLAS heat and of course the 15% bonus to CERPPC speed.

With the MK IV TC that is 1504 m/s. Alpha-strike away with no Ghost Heat penalty too, unlike the 4 x CLPLAS and 4-5 x CERLLAS builds.

Edited by Kain Demos, 14 July 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

you really gotta stop looking at non canon megamek rules as gospel bro........ In TT legal rules there is no special effects for any alpha. If you have enough heatsinks, you dissipate the heat. http://www.sarna.net..._strike_(Tactic)

Novels. Effects of heat to pilots.

That's alpha strike as in fire all weapons in a single 10 second turn as per basic tabletop. Not necessarily fire all weapons at once, to which there's more drastic consequences.

Also: Canonical rules.
TacOps: Heatsink coolant failure. Page: 105. (Written by Catalyst Game Labs -- thus the most modern, up to date canonical resource possible).
Also related: TacOps: Avoiding shutdown (page: 104). No, I was not using the expanded heatscale.

You should try using some of the canonical rules, man.

Edit: To add, said rules apply when you exceed the heatsinks' capacity to dissipate heat. i.e. If you have 20 DHS you can dissipate 40 heat. But you generate 60 heat... that's 20 in excess of what the heatsinks can handle and thus you hit the risk of coolant failure -- the resulting punishment is melting/destroyed heatsinks.

Edited by Koniving, 14 July 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 14 July 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Novels. Effects of heat to pilots.

That's alpha strike as in fire all weapons in a single 10 second turn as per basic tabletop. Not necessarily fire all weapons at once, to which there's more drastic consequences.

Also: Canonical rules.
TacOps: Heatsink coolant failure. Page: 105. (Written by Catalyst Game Labs -- thus the most modern, up to date canonical resource possible).
Also related: TacOps: Avoiding shutdown (page: 104). No, I was not using the expanded heatscale.

You should try using some of the canonical rules, man.

"Tactical Operations covers the optional rules"

Nuff said. optional, non tournament legal. Aka, not definitive, despite your presenting them as such.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

THis game needs to be more skill based, teamwork, good aim and heat management. Not skill based in that the player can press 1 button and make the enemy melt.....that is not skill...

Lolphaing 5 times and the only limiting factor is the heat scale staying below 185% and trying not to blow up with over ride.......

[Throat Punch]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

"Tactical Operations covers the optional rules"

Nuff said. optional, non tournament legal. Aka, not definitive, despite your presenting them as such.

Total Warfare (and Alpha strike if i recall, i haven't gotten that book yet) contain the newest base rules.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

"Tactical Operations covers the optional rules"

Nuff said. optional, non tournament legal. Aka, not definitive, despite your presenting them as such.

They're optional, yes, but that doesn't make them non-canon or non-definitive; they're just as canon and definitive and part of the BattleTech rule-set as the rules in Total Warfare.

Not everyone uses them, not everyone has to use them, but they are just as relevant when talking about how things work in the BattleTech universe as any other canon rules.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mors Draco, on 14 July 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Total Warfare (and Alpha strike if i recall, i haven't gotten that book yet) contain the newest base rules.

TacOps and Total Warfare are not one and the same. Would be the point. It would be like someone bringing in Solaris Dueling Rules and calling them the "definitive battletech rules". Now perhaps if one addressed things in a manner where they stated "there are OPTIONAL rules that cover things like this"..... I might be less picky.

stjobe, on 14 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

They're optional, yes, but that doesn't make them non-canon or non-definitive; they're just as canon and definitive and part of the BattleTech rule-set as the rules in Total Warfare.

Not everyone uses them, not everyone has to use them, but they are just as relevant when talking about how things work in the BattleTech universe as any other canon rules.

Definitive are the base, everyone uses them, tournament legal rules. Everything else, being optional? Not definitive, sorry.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[Throat Punch]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

TacOps and Total Warfare are not one and the same. Would be the point. It would be like someone bringing in Solaris Dueling Rules and calling them the "definitive battletech rules". Now perhaps if one addressed things in a manner where they stated "there are OPTIONAL rules that cover things like this"..... I might be less picky.

Oh, I agree with you. I was just saying which books had the base rules. TacOps are optional rules to expand on the base rule set.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Definitive are the base, everyone uses them, tournament legal rules. Everything else, being optional? Non.definitive, sorry.

Sorry Bishop, but you're wrong on that. The tournament legal rules are a sub-set that's used to not bog down tournament play, but that doesn't mean other canon rules aren't "definitive", whatever that means.

They are canon rules, written by official BattleTech writers, vetted and okayed by the Line Developer, published by the company holding the rights to the IP. How is that not "definitive"?

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 14 July 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Sorry Bishop, but you're wrong on that. The tournament legal rules are a sub-set that's used to not bog down tournament play, but that doesn't mean other canon rules aren't "definitive", whatever that means.

They are canon rules, written by official BattleTech writers, vetted and okayed by the Line Developer, published by the company holding the rights to the IP. How is that not "definitive"?

definitive means the "ever present and non negotiable". Optional means exactly that. They are rules legal, in certain settings, but not omnipresent, and thus one really can't quote them as "it always happens like this, or else". Kind of the definition of Optional, dude. "available to be chosen but not obligatory."

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

definitive means the "ever present and non negotiable". Optional means exactly that. They are rules legal, in certain settings, but not omnipresent, and thus one really can't quote them as "it always happens like this, or else". Kind of the definition of Optional, dude. "available to be chosen but not obligatory."

They're rules for "oh, and if you really want to simulate that, here's how it actually works", most of them.

So in a discussion about how things work in the BattleTech universe, they're very relevant.

[Summon3r]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

THis game needs to be more skill based, teamwork, good aim and heat management. Not skill based in that the player can press 1 button and make the enemy melt.....that is not skill...

Lolphaing 5 times and the only limiting factor is the heat scale staying below 185% and trying not to blow up with over ride.......

thats the real problem for me is MWO feels soooo arcadish

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 14 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

They're rules for "oh, and if you really want to simulate that, here's how it actually works", most of them.

So in a discussion about how things work in the BattleTech universe, they're very relevant.

Yes, they are great for "hey if you want more in depth, here are OPTIONAL rules". Not the same as "this is how things work in Btech, period". Which is how they were presented.