945 replies to this topic

[Kreisel]

Good on you for making this change. ECM has been the single most powerful item you can place on your mech for 1.5 Tons by a massive amount for a very long time. There is no reason to even CONSIDER not taking it on any mech in which it can be placed at current.

I am very strongly in support of shifting the ECM bubble down to 90m. This is a MUCH needed and long overdue change for ECM. Visually the picture you provided makes it very clear that it doesn't look or feel right to have a mech that is that far away be inside the bubble.

Also it allows for counter play to ECM based on positioning! Previously ECM effected all except about 20M, which was too small of a band to stand in and escape it's jamming effect. You had to be under 200 to detect and were jammed as soon as you hit 180, it was impossible to stay at and fight in a range where you could maintain a sensor lock without specialized. equipment. At least with this change I can try to keep the fight at 90 to 200. 110m is still a pretty narrow band to stay in (as most mechs with ECM can cross that distance distance faster than you can get a missile lock, but it's might actually be doable, unlike trying to stay in the sweet spot of 20M before.

It's a first right step for ECM and Role Warfare. I also am a huge proponent of making ECM reduce sensor range BY 25% not TO 25%. first off it would be allow for the same kind of counterplay I just mentioned above, where you could fight ECM with proper positioning, secondly it would bring it into line with the other equivalent gear (BAP, sensor modules) and lastly it would make some of ECM's functions that are currently pointless as important (increased lock on time & increased time to get sensor data don't matter if you can never target them in the first place). Reducing sensor range from 800 to 600 is still a huge deal. It would also counter the increased sensor range of the module and BAP more fairly by nullifying them and making it as if your range drop back down to the same as if you had not increased it. Making ECM work in this way would mean it's still very useful, as your team can target the other team at further rangers away, acquire data and locks more swiftly and sneak around so far as you remained far enough away, but once the teams closed into a medium range they could start getting locks.

By the same token Sensor Deprivation needs to be canceled out by Target Decay (or if they already are the tooltips need to make this clear).

Also I am in agreement that it would be nice to see some kind of radar that works like Seismic Sensor does currently but does not require a module, currently Seismic is often considered a MUST HAVE module, which reduces the effective number of module slots you have to use interesting modules you might actually consider taking but which are currently seeing little to no use because Seismic sensor and Sensory deprivation are considered too important not to have. Having an Active/Passive Radar that does not provide sensor locks would allow for some very interesting role/info warfare play and open up a lot of new interesting things you could make Modules, quirks and equipment like Command Console/ECM/BAP do. Personally I think an active mode out to like 360 or 250 (that could be increased or decreased on some mechs with quirks/modules/equipment) and a passive mode where your radar is off but you can only be detected out to like 60 or 90, and then shut down mechs are entirely invisible to it (unless the mech scanning has BAP) would be really cool.

[Dinochrome]

Hailz all:

I agree with Death Drow. The mechwarriors have totally disregarded basic defense such as AMS because ECM prevents the use of almost a third of the available weapons. The players who want to cram their mechs full of direct fire weapons don't want any missiles used at all. They want every ton of direct fire offensive weapons on their mechs they can get and ECM allows them to ignore basic defensive weapons. When is the last time you dropped in a game and someone asked if anyone had AMS?

-My recommendations are to enable ECM to protect only the mech it is mounted on.

-Increase tonnage requirement for ECM to two tons. ECM is not a briefcase sized box. It requires antennas, passive detection circuitry, wavelength analysis computers and broadcast units for jamming purposes.

-Create a C3/data sharing module that you have to mount if you want to use indirect targeting weapons such as the dreaded LRM's. IT should weight about .05 tons since its similar to a GPS unit. And before you tell me about your cellphone GPS, try using your unshielded phone in an ECM environment. If this module is not present you can neither broadcast or receive indirect targeting info.

-And last but not least, stop with the "I am elite, you are pug BS", open player games have absolutely nothing to do with what ECM does or doesn't do. You select the weapons you like best and you play that way, your choice. You have absolutely no right to badmouth any players skill or choice of weapons as a reflection of their skill or abilities.

V/R Dinochrome

[Wing 0]

I honestly dont think this ECM change is going to be make such a negative impact as far as gameplay goes. My disapointment is that this change is not being done AFTER the Shadow cat and Arctic Cheetah were released. I would like to see proof that ECM would be a Major Issue but i sure as hell dont see it. Ive seen the issue on that with I.S Mechs most of the time. Clans mechs no and its to the lack of selection.

The ECM and BAP mechanics in Mechwarrior 4 were by far the best unlike what we have here. PGI shouldve had that kind of model to begin with but it wouldve been different. I know there were alot of idiots who have complained about the ECM and im not surprised PGI is taking words from people who are NOT paying in this game and dont have a decent level in playing the game

[Sardauker Legion]

Does PGI know anything about Radar and ECM in real world?

A Predator (drone) is smaller as an F16 (fighter) which is smaller than a B52 (bomber).

A Radar has different range for different sized targets, and ECM works better for small than big targets.

So, what about different ECM cover range for different mech Classes? For a light still 180 mts, for an Assault 45 mts?

And pls give us Passive Radar, thks.

[Mockingbird42]

Dawnstealer, on 16 July 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yes, and ECM is the very PINNACLE of a skill weapon. People train for DECADES to install that on their mech and then become invincible to missile fire for the match...

Ok LRM Friends, let me clarify this plz: The "no skill weapon" is not exactly my main point. In fact it is the thing that pops up in my head when I have a brawl with an enemy and all of a sudden my LRM teammate or his LRM Teammate kicks in and ruins one of us. Yes I dont like it if people sit behind cover 600 m away and ruin interesting gameplay. It ruins my fun! sry thats how I feel about it. I got it that others dont feel the same.
But my real Point is: LRMs are terrible for everyone. They cant be balanced becouse they are digital: They get the lock and u are done. They dont get the lock and they are done.

No matter how strong or weak u make them, there will either be a skill level where they wreck and dominate everything (beginners skill level) or are totally useless (high level Players, caus they know how to handle them ).

IF they get get the lock or not is merely coincidental. ANd Lurmers, I feel your pain with ecm; enemy has or has not ecm in pugs. Then you have or have not a spotter, narcer or uav. But thats exactly the problem. Dumbfiring LRMs with autoaim once locked is terrible for gameplay and no fun of the targets. You can do almost nothing once somehow locked you.

And being confronted with ecm is terrible for the lurmer. You can do nothing ( -errh cough tag.., cough cough.. own lock.cough -sry couldnt resist

My point is
LRMS now are a bad system cause either they wreck stuff coincidentally or are a liability to the team. ECM is a equally bad counter to this so my point is, both should be reworked. The main decision for how the LRM-ECM game goes is before the match. This is not the way I want games to be decided. This is not the way I want my influence to the outcome to be severely restricted.

Dang, I answered an Lrm post, didnt want to do that

[Drunk Canuck]

Ramrod AI, on 16 July 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

So many clan ECM mechs out and coming out. LRM's are useless against clans in CW. Direct fire is even more pointless.

They are useless in general, and in CW they are even worse when builds like the 6 LL 4N Stalker can put trade an LRM boat without taking much damage at all.

[Luscious Dan]

Good point using the real world example. I was thinking about this yesterday, having mass influence your lock on time. Should be easier to lock up big targets, and ECM would reduce your signature.

Say hypothetically 2.5s delay to lock on, then some penalty based on tonnage so that bigger mechs are locked faster. Each ECM blanketing you could reduce your effective tonnage by a certain amount (ratio or flat discount, I'd suggest ratios so they have built in diminishing returns for multiple ECM systems).

So assuming 20% mass discount per ECM, you could have an Atlas that gets locked as fast as an 80-tonner, and effectively a 64-tonner if covered by another ECM (0.8*0.8=0.64).

And if they bring back convergence, maybe have it so convergence is also tied to a lock. So better convergence if you have paper doll up, versus taking a potshot at someone who you haven't targeted?

Just (another) thought.

[Sable]

I'm so glad the first post of feedback voiced my feelings entirely. Nerf it to 10 meters, only the mech that has ECM should get the benefit. I'm also like a lot of the creative suggestions mentioned in just the first page. ECMs interfering with each other, soft counters rather than hard counters, lots of good feedback from the community. I hope they take some of them under consideration.

I know Paul has received a hard time for past nerfs or buffs being too much but i do think it should go down to 60 meters. Don't let the trolls scare you man!!! DO ETTT!!!

[Tuann]

good job

[VileKnight]

I tried to read the entire thread before i responded to anything, but after 8 pages I give up.

I applaud the changes, and also give kudos in using the screen shots to help give context to said changes. I am not 100% sure about the BAP changes, but let's see what data the test runs provide.

[Jabilo]

Must of taken a lot of man hours to come up with such a far reaching and imaginative overhaul to the way ecm, sensors and targeting work. I am not surprised it took three years.

Bravo.

I thought that perhaps a total overhaul was what we needed;

Removing hard counters, introducing interactive systems such as passive sensors and moving to an elegant solution that allowed sensors, BAP, modules, ECM and Artemis to play off against each other in a deep yet logical way.

I was wrong. What was really needed was to spend three years thinking about it and then cutting the range in half. It is so laugh out loud funny it is impossible to be upset. I will look forward to further developments with great interest!

[Theaus]

It's not a bad idea in and of itself. But, in Community warfare the IS only has two ecm mechs per wave; if that many. Whereas, the clans usually have at least twice as much ecm if not five or six mechs running it at once. Though, I will admit the arrival of ecm griffin and cataphract have evened those numbers a bit recently.

[bad arcade kitty]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 July 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

This is actually in some ways a BUFF for ECM, at least for ECM lights.

ECM prevents sensor locks at all ranges, out to infinity if not countered.

BAP counters ECM out to its max range.

If ECM friendly bubble is reduced, that has zero effect on the actual mech that carries the ECM.

If BAP range is reduced, Streaks will only be able to lock onto ECM mechs at the new, reduced range of BAP - meaning the streak mech will need to get closer to fire, and lose lock easier.

I think that they should reduce the range of the ECM bubble as noted, but NOT reduce the range at which it is countered by BAP.

yeah (generally you are right, but in details you are a bit wrong, streakboats can lock ecm mechs from 250 meters but twice as slowly till the new shrunk range of bap)

if they touch bap it will be a buff to the individual usage of ecm... not only against streakboats, against lrm boats too, it will be harder to spot for them (not like that anybody does it intentionally but generally they will get less shared locks from bap mechs)

because the 1/4 radar range on which you can lock an ecm mech is untouched and it is the main strength of ecm

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Thanks Paul, sounds good, looking forward to this game getting that much-needed role warfare. To my mind, it's the pillar of the original four you mentioned way back when that we're still waiting on, having taken longer than even CW to appear. So, if this ECM change helps bring that into play finally, then I for one welcome our new trimmed bubble and Role Warfare masters.

[Kaharin]

So, maybe developer necessary to read books about mechwars? What about they talking? Mechwars its the historical actions, with all technican parametrs. Its First.

The Second, developers! what and when are you begin thinking about command window? you seriously think what mechwarriors will close a battle window what to look and click on the battlemap? Realy? Is we are all crazy idiots? Each mech has the empty monitor in the cabin, why(not) Why(not) WHY!!!!! I should close battle window for make the tactical map for my lance or command??????? How I should make the tactical game with this STUPID system command window with battlemap? You make the 90 metrs radius ECM for more interesting? ok, tactical game? right? Ok, but we need the INSTRUMENT for that game. And im wanna make the MARK on the enemy mech for atack my lance, and im wanna make the route point on the battlemap for my lance or command and to many etc....but WTHOUT switching between wondows.
Read books about mechwarriors. Mechwarriors that is COMMAND warriors, and that study the first in military academy mechwarriors - instruments of interaction. Which we don't have.......

Edited by Kaharin, 16 July 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Motörhead]

IS ECM : 2 slots/1,5 ton, works like old ECM but only for the given mech.
CLAN ECM : 1 slot/1 ton, works like old ECM but only for the given mech.
Angel ECM for both : 2 slots/2 tons, works like old ECM but has 60m for the others.

Done.

Edited by Motörhead, 16 July 2015 - 01:55 PM.

[Rushmoar]

For starters, 180 m radius for ECM is quite large. What I don't get is why is balance approached with extreme values. ECM's affect to stealth is not cut in half here, it is actually lessen the effect of ECM by 3/4. At 180 meters, ECM can cover almost 102,000 square meters. At 90 meters, ECM can cover almost 25,500 square meters.

I agree that 180m is too big but why not start at 120m. That will cut its stealth affect by just over half. What I am worried about is if it gets too low or it only hides the ECM mech. It will make more people take ECM mechs and kill the variaty of mechs on the field. I want to be in a Thunderbolt but not if I am the only mech that can be targeted with ease.

I would start by getting rid of the ECM stacking. It is a terrible function of ECM where 2 ECM mechs can negate a mech with BAP. Make is at least where 1 of the ECM mechs needs to be in counter mode to negate BAP just like it can counter another ECM. I hear that other changes to sensors ranges and equipment are in the work so lets see how it plays out.

[Clay Pigeon]

Guardian ECM's range was fine. It was/is it's feature set that needs a nerf. Right now it basically functions as Angel ECM, which it shouldn't.

People are going to go but but LRMS.

Here's a fix to that. Double LRM velocity, but require line of sight to fire.

There. Now make guardian/clan ecm work like it should (see sarna, and stop looking at angel ecm, that's not where we are in the timeline), and everything should be much better.

Edited by Clay Pigeon, 16 July 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[AztecD]

ECM Negates the bonuses for Artemis, Narc and it interfered with C3 systems, it never cloaked direct radar signatures of mechs, if you see a mech in line of sight, it should pop up on your radar.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite

Any changed to the magic cloak field the current ECM provides is a welcome change

Edited by AztecD, 16 July 2015 - 02:57 PM.

[Reno Blade]

The reduction of ECM and BAP range is a first step in the right direction.

I'd go further and include other technologies into radar range and signatures of a mech like this:


Rules:
- Your mechs radar signature is dependend on the size (weight x2) the armor and structure aswell as the type of heatsinks or the state of the engine (heat over 50%)
- A mech with BAP equipped can target enemy mechs 25% further away
- A mech with the engine producing more than 50% heat (heat bar) can be detected 25% farther away
- A mech with ECM equipped reduces its radar signature by 50%
- A mech with Stealth Armor equipped reduces its radar signature by 25%


Here the trade-off for better engine, structure and armor is a better Radar Signature for your enemies targeting you.
That also means that the advantage of low tech (Tech lvl1: Std Engine, Std Structure, Std Armor, Single Heatsinks) and ECM is a lower Radar Signature.
This also adds value to mechs like the Nova (Std structure, Std armor and medium engine) over better equipped mechs like the Stormcrow (Endo, Ferro and higher engine).

The overall differences in Radar Signature ranges makes the use of scout mechs more important.