945 replies to this topic

[The Basilisk]

@ Paul:
Did you guys think about how much more ppl will be driven to pilot ECM carrying mechs to be competetive ?
At the moment it is one or two ECM capable Mechs per wave in CW.
With the ECM change you will have to carry at least ....absolutely minimum one per Lance.
Appart from the weight class limitations, leading to focus on certain Mechs like T-wub and the like the ECM change will lead you to Companys of Griffin 2N, ECM Cataphracts etc.

Did you thought that through ?

Edit:

Edited by The Basilisk, 16 July 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[Joe Decker]

My 5 Cents :

ECM : Preventing any Target Info for all Mechs in a Bubble is surely OP. Not being able at all to lock on an ECM shielded Mech or Targets within the Bubble is also OP.

Range can be reduced, but I don't think this is the Core of the Problem. BAP should always have a few Meters more Radius than ECM.

ECM should simply INCREASE lock on Times and Target Info for a certain Amount of Time, while Artemis, TAG, NARC, UAV and BAP (and other Systems I might have forgotten) should simply DECREASE lock on Times and/or Target Info.

The Problem MWO got are these ABSOLUTE Things like ECM (you can never not lock, use Missiles, get Target Info) or Radar Deprivation Module (you are being hidden INSTANT - should be more like you are hidden 1-2 seconds faster)

---

I like the Idea about Future Sensor/ECM Mechs with increased Capabilities. I don't know if we need a general Overhaul of the Quirk System.

Weapon Category Quirks are fine (like Buffs to Missiles/Cannons-Rifles/Energy Weapons)

Weapon specific Quirks are okey for some rare special Mechs (Example would be PPC Quirk for Awesome Q), but not for all Mechs (Quirks like saying a certain Mech Variant got Quirks for Medium Lasers should not be used that often)

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LRMs need a general Overhaul - Direct Fire of LRM's should always be possible while Indirect Fire should be only possible if at least one Teammate keeps looking and locking at a certain Target and transmits the Info in some Way to the LRM Mech.

To prevent future LRMAGGEDONs in PUG Matches I would simply put Limits to LRM Mechs per Match in the Matchmaker.

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Another Thing that we also need in MWO are certain Armor Types like Standard/Reactive/Reflective Armor.

[Lily from animove]

Devorum, on 16 July 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

Good job buffing the everliving crap out of Streakcrows until other changes come in.

As if life didn't suck enough for light pilots right now...

wonder how those non ecm light players could hold their ground all the time. Some fear probably, that just their easy toy is gone.

[Mycrus]

Hey Paul... keep on digging.

[Richard Hazen]

The whole thing in regards to people complaining about the supposed ecm change and it's implications for lrms is that there's a way to avoid them without ecm being around already, radar deprivation and cover.

I think ECM has been relied upon by pilots to much from my experience, it's to much of a safety blanket at the moment to the point people with lrms can go entire matches without being able to lock any one which however much you dislike lrms isn't quite balanced.

It's quite evident when ever you play on maps like caustic that the team with less ecm will lose which is not right as that basically means an entire match hinges on the amount of ecm a team has and not on the players combined or individual skills.

Edited by Deimos Alpha, 16 July 2015 - 07:25 AM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Glad to see changes finally coming along but I agree with others that dropping it to 90 just isn't enough.

ECM providing cover for other mechs doesn't make sense to me anyways. Paul used the right words with 'magic bubble' and players end up yelling at their scout mechs to do the exact opposite of what a scout mech is supposed to be doing. The later has always annoyed me

LRMs are only complained about by players that either haven't played long enough or are too dependent on scouts not fulfilling their actual roll. AMS, Walls, Buildings, ETC = How LRMs are easily dealt with. LRM boats are destroyed by the team that works together and aggressively pushes onto them and that's without ECM or AMS even. If players started taking advantage of the ams hardpoint LRM boat role would be even harder to pull off.

BAP and CAP should only provide the target for the mech using it (unless there's a command computer on the team or the clan equivalent), and ECM should only 'stealth' the mech using it. EDIT: C3 system in play I should have said. I don't know why I always mix up the CC with C3. shrug

Honestly the current way that ECM, BAP, and CAP has been used is exploiting bad game mechanics (Not meaning any offense Dev Team just personal opinion).

Edited by Death Drow, 16 July 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[AdamBaines]

Tastian, on 15 July 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

ECM needs more then a range decrease. The Streak/LRM/ECM/BAP/C3/Artemis/TAG/UAV/target information relationship needs to be overhauled.

Agreed, and it sounds like it will be. Im VERY excited about these developments. PGI continues to make better decisions.

[100mile]

Here's the thing...and if anybody has already said this then i am sorry for repeating.... glanced through and didn't see it.

In lore when you used ECM to jam the enemy it also had the same effect on your team as well. So when it was on you couldn't get locks either. You had to turn it off to utilize your radar and get locks and all of that. You were stuck with visuals and mag scan etc.This is how it should work in game too.

Edited by 100mile, 16 July 2015 - 07:40 AM.

[Leonidas Rommel]

I think the ECM range could be left along, and instead change what ECM really does. There are many types of ECM, but the most common form of ECM (in real life) is to blanket an area with invisible radiation, along frequency ranges. Few true ECM can blanket a very broad range of frequencies because of the power requirement it needs to sustain it. For instance, fighter aircraft can "jam" a small frequency range than a bomber.

In stead of nerfing the ECM in the game, we could add the following game play mechanics to the game and make ECM a true active component to the game in which the pilot would have to control. Here are some suggestions that may work I know nothing of Lore, only how ECM is applied in RL.

• Create a system of ECM frequency tiers that ECM pilots can select. For example, make four tiers of frequency jamming.
  
• ECM jamming capability is based on the weight of the ECM employed. For instance, a one ton ECM can jam only one of the above teirs at a time. The pilot must select which to jam to block the effectiveness of the targeting system. Another example, the DDC takes a four ton ECM and is able to jam the entire spectrum of sensing radiation. Pilots can also select auto rotation of their jamming frequencies, and the more tons the ECM, the more frequencies it jams as it goes through the auto rotation. But doing this also means possible exposure at undesired times.
  
• Equipment like Tag, Bap, and UAVs rotate trough the frequencies to detect enemy mechs to try and detect. Once found, it locks and stays on that frequency until jammed again. Those components again begin the rotating of frequency until it finds a new frequency that can detect enemy mechs.
  
• Jamming mechs are alerted to breachs in their ECM coverage and have to react.
  
• Create Advance BAP, Different Teirs of UAVs, and Advanced TAG which covers more than one scanning frequency at a time, thus increasing the likely hood of detecting enemy mechs faster.

I understand that this would make the game play more technical when trying to employ and countering ECM. It would make those pilots who use ECM to have be an active participant in providing counter measures while protecting those units under his or her coverage.

This also means that coordinate drops must use their ECM tactically, understand the limitations of their ECM, and coordinate the deployment of ECM to provide the best coverage possible.

Ultimately, you will see a range of ECM mechs with different roles within the unit, making the game play more dynamic and fluid (also more difficult).

Some I am sure will say that this will mean ECM mechs will not be effective. This is not true. It will be effective, but ECM mechs should be just as active in countering sensing data, as those who are trying to obtain that data for their team. IMO.

[Frodalf]

I'd like to suggest a change to LRM lock on. Mainly that it require LoS from the firing mech to the target to get a lock. Unless of course you have an LRM boat equiped with C3 and a scout equiped with C3. Then LRM's should be able to lock on to the scout's target, and only then. This allowing missile boats to lock on to anyone their team is targeting, severly limits anyones ability to engage in a fight without getting rained on. Brawlers have to spend the majority of the fight hiding behind cover hoping that a target will wander into their sights. Step out of cover to engage and suddenly your not just fighting your target your getting hit by his 2 or 3 boat buddies firing missiles from behind a hill so you can't even see them. Make missile boats have to expose themselves to fire, and then give people C3. So you have dedicated teams that are setup to use LRM's like they are in their current state. With this change ECM won't be as much a necessity as it is now and you can nerf it's range all you like.

[Summon3r]

Alistair Winter, on 15 July 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Oh, and I almost forgot to say this.

Paul, if you're revamping the whole ECM and BAP functionality...

... please implement Active / Passive radar while you're at it!!

how was this not part of the game from day 1? oh wait depth and functionalty nvm

the more i think about this 90m BS the more its just laughable and fixes absolutely NOTHING, just another bandaid and a weak one at that............. hello guardian and angel ECM its already made for you it will take no brain cells to figure out how it will work!!!!!

Edited by Summon3r, 16 July 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Wolfiac, on 16 July 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

I purchased two Griff and two Phract ecm's to counter the LRM's from clanners in CW. While this ECM adjustment may be good for the game going forward, I will not be purchasing anything going forward until all 'beta' phases are completed.

So you are simply going to stop 'buying' anything? You are miss using the word Beta in this case. All games make changes during their existence as they further develop. I don't blame you really on the miss use of the word Beta as the meaning of Alpha and Beta in game development has been used improper by many game developers themselves for years now. There will always be changes come along some big and some so minor you probably won't even notice them. It certainly can suck as a player to 'buy' something one day and the next it doesn't work the way you bought it for but it's a fact of life... change happens.

[Devorum]

Lily from animove, on 16 July 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

wonder how those non ecm light players could hold their ground all the time. Some fear probably, that just their easy toy is gone.

They don't "hold their ground all the time", they play something else. That's what there's typically less than 10% Light 'Mechs in the queue.

Keep pretending that a weapon group for Bads which auto-hits ~50 damage isn't broken, though.

I run a Streakcrow for lulz...I know exactly what it can do.

[Bellum Dominum]

Oh speaking of the 'MAGIC BUBBLE' ... How about getting rid of these magical triangles above a mech? You know those big bright arrows that point down on everyone's heads screaming to any enemy not in radar range, using their eyes, or not using their 'minimap' THERES AN ENEMY HERE.

If it's there simply to aid in identifying friendly or enemy that could be done by making the targeting reticle change colors: Green for enemy (GO fire away) Red for friendly (Knock it off you dolt stop shooting your teammates!).

Edited by Death Drow, 16 July 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[Devorum]

ECM does need a drastic change. But the range on it is fine, and reducing it drastically while changing literally nothing else doesn't really accomplish anything. Why not hold off on the range reduction until other changes are ready?

This is just plain stupid. But why am I expecting good design decision from Captain Ghost Heat?

[Ashvins]

IMO Not enough.

ECM should go to TT values or close to it. Target data sharing should be restricted to mech's equipped with C3. Null sig should be implemented as TT value. I can go on and on, It boils down to making mech's fill their intended role. You wan't a sniper that's immune to sensors, mount null sig with the cost's that go with it. Want LRM-aggeddon Get a scout mech to target for you and share data through a C3 that cost's you & the scout tonnage.

I say enough with the day's of every mech being given 2.5 tonns of equipment for free. (C3) Enough with the magic fairy bubble of ECM. There's a lot of work to be done to get things where they should be. I say hurry up and get it done.

BTW if we didn't have free C3 and uber ECM TTK would be far lower than current, Think about it.

[Faol]

"i see dead peop ... erm ... i see HOARDS of hellbringers!"

[Mockingbird42]

This is absolutely terrible!

I really dont like this. Why? Because ECM is directy linked to the major "no skill needed kill the fun in this game for me" weapon system. Yes you guessed it: LRMS.

Nerf ECM means buff LRMs, pretty simple. Buff LRMs in their current implementation is wrong.

Why? Because it strengthens a problem this game imho already has in the pug queue: Minimal positive influence of a single pugger to the outcome of the game and because of this a lot of frustration. Yes, I know, all you forum warriors will say I should "l2p, l2aim, carry harder, learn to use cover, this is a team game bla bla bla..."

Believe me, I know all these concepts, try to use them and am not a bad player, and at the end of the day I want fun, not frustration. Its that easy.

We all with a mediocre or above skill level know it: There are so many games that are decided after 2 or 3 minutes, either because 1 or 2 teammates run off without a plan and get killed or because of bad positioning. And it doesnt matter if they end 1-12 or 8-12 or after 4 or after 12 minutes. They are decided from the start no matter how good or bad you do! You stomp or get stomped, no matter if you excel or power down in the corner. How often do you really turn around a game where u are down 0-2 and your team is spread around the whole map so you dont even know with whom to group up and form a (decimated) deathball? I tell you - not often enough for me at least. (No offense to new players we all have to learn)

Why is this -imho- so? Because 12-12 is too much mechs per team. Back when it was 8v8 i had so many games that where close and could be turned around quite often - if my memory doesnt fail me of course;

Look at it this way: Fun in games for me is having control and influence in the outcome! This should be obvious.

If you say now: "why should the number of mechs matter? Your team also has 12!", look at it from your personal influence to the outcome.
1v1 -all your fault or glory - total control
2v2 - if your teammate sucks and blows himself up at the start its only 1v2, theres a good chance you turn it around
3v3 - still only 1 v 3 a good player can do it. I believe in you!

You get the idea

8v8 seemed to have been a good spot.
12v12 not good.
(Imho giving a 8v8 option would increase the fun really much.)

Now back to lurms: The more mechs that are out there the harder it it to position yourself in a place where there is no narcer, no spotter, no uav and no - im sure they exist- a lurmer that spots by himself. Best example is of course caustic, 1 of the above and u get wrecked pretty much, especially with the low ttk and high damage outputwhatever you do from then. Really Paul, i dont get why you dont see this is no fun!

The high number of ECM around has mitigated the Problem. Nerf ECM without making LURMS a weapon where u have to aim causes frustration, at least for me.

1 more point:
It is not a progres ifs mechs have to move close to each other to get ecm and thus have problems maneuvring. Its annoying! You dont want to make your game annoying do you?

Dont increase frustration- increase active, skill based influence for single players and thus fun.


Nerfing ecm and so buffing LRMs is the wrong direction imho.

[Ridir Semii]

firstly, this is NOT TT (as much as we lore nerds want it to be)
it isn't the same because, to use a single example, if TT armor values were used, you would be killed 2 times faster than now, doesn't sound too fun, especially at the lower skill level or like me, a lower computer level ( I average 14-16 FPS on a GREAT day)

I do not care about ECM changes, either way, I will still use it on my ECM mechs as it will always provide a benefit.

I do not understand why every tiny thing in a game needs balancing though, nothing in war is ever balanced to be fair, it comes down to the soldiers actually fighting, and their ability to utilize their equipment to it's fullest.

I do not understand why if balancing is going to happen that it cannot be at levels of say 10% vs 50%.

I do not understand why there are quirks at all, it forces the meta.

I do not understand why the whining about indirect fire, you cannot take my ability to see a mech and put my reticle on said mech and send my missiles downrange.

oh, and for the LRMpocalypse numbers, we have had about 6 of them since Open Beta, unless you want to consider every event in the last 7 months. (probably more)



I don't know what suggestions to make to nerf/buff any of these systems, I never saw a need to do it in the first place, just like with quirks... all that happens is you force the meta to whatever is least $%^*&$ up, and those who try to enjoy the game playing a varied role of mechs is basically left in the dark.... with Bubba and no lube....

Edited by Seamus McKenna, 16 July 2015 - 08:22 AM.

[Surn]

Introduce many ecm mechs, nerf after purchase, win.