While, I get kinda annoyed when an entire enemy team is shielded by ECM, I don't think this is the correct way to remedy the ECM situation.
From a design point of view, I see the following happening:
- Now more people will be forced to play in ECM mechs on dedicated teams (Cuz if you huddle too much you are going to get bombed)
- More people will want to play in ECM mechs making this change hardly anything, other than reduce number of variants on the field in games
(And also, some people made some other valid points in this thread about some negatives to this. I really don't understand the direction you are taking.)
IF ECM really was a problem, the logical solution would be to buff counter-ECM equipment.
For example, the fact that NARC weighs what? 3 tons I think? Then you have to buy ammo taking more tons. (You could pretty much have a Large Laser for that amount of tonnage.)
Or perhaps by adding some sort of system that lets Narcs broadcast under ECM?
Or perhaps add some range onto NARC?
I mean, you already have counters to ECM in the game. Let them fix the problem.
But hey, forget that. I think you should nerf Machineguns and the Flamer more next. Because of godlike developer reasons... (Half the stuff in this game make me scratch my head tbh. I feel like the nerd gong "What were they thinking?!")
I think just scrapping E.C.M would be far the best option
86'ing ECM would make it patently less Mechwarrior/Battletech. I do think that breaking cannon is OK for playability, but not at this extreme. But I understand what you are getting at for CW where the seeming clan-monopoly on ECM is most prevalent.
Generally...
There are various models of ECM to look back on. In MW4:Mercs, for example, the NBT:HC mod team worked with different balances to find an agreeable spot for ecm/bap ranges and still balance missiles effectively.
Others here have mentioned an option also adapted to MW4 that is not BT cannon, but allows for great game play: The ability to toggle radar as active/passive. Only BAP counters a radar passive mech and at a variable range given any number of quirks, no limited to size, presence of ECM, heat, etc... More variance means more interest & surprise.
Ik its great and all that you guys at PGI are coming up with "creative" ideas for the game, but honestly, all i want are more maps, and for the old maps to be made better.
The new River City is a great start, and i would like to see this kind of work in more maps.
so, we still aren't going to get an ECM that does anything realistic, just an ECM that is going to cover 1 or 2 mechs and no one else, unless your playing clans, in which case since every other mech has ECM, they dont have to worry. I have to hand it to you PGI, you still manage to amaze me with how thoughtless you guys are. I thought i'd seen everything by now, you've managed to alienate nearly your entire playerbase, you ignore multiple logical suggestions from players on how to run mechanics, you implement stuff that your testers tell you is not working, only to be surprised when it fails, and now you are going to nerf ECM, without touching LRMs or SSRMs. I'd ***** a little longer, but i need to go buy an umbrella before LRMpocalypse round 3 begins again.
EVERYONE BUY STREAK/LRM BOATS! THAT WILL BE THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN COME THIS PATCH!
While indeed a much needed change, the core mechanics must change.
ECM must be changed from a radar stealth field, information and guided missile denial system to an information denial system and guided missile counter measure.
This means ECM should no longer make the user and those around them incapable of being targeted. Instead ECM will deny those who are targeting the user and those within the 180m bubble from transmitting their location information as well as an increased time to gather Target Information(Paper Doll data as well as missile lock on times.
The systems that denied or bypassed ECM are to be changed back. UAV, NARC, TAG, and Beagle Active Probe will no longer disable and or bypass ECM. The user with that equipment will be the only one benefiting from the increased data reception, but will be unable to transmit it.
BAP will instead allow the user who has it installed to detect if there is an ECM user near by. This means those who do not have BAP installed will not receive the "Low Signal" warning.
PPCs and another ECM however will still be capable to disrupting an enemy ECM.
ECM should also change how missiles behave. Instead of denying a lock on to LRMs and SSRMs, ECM will disable LRM and SRM ARTERMIS IV equipped enhancements turning them in to standard LRMS and SRMs. Standard LRMs and SSRMs will remain the same, but the moment they enter the ECM field their flight pattern will be scrambled and become erratic,similarly to how they behaved in Beta, leading to an increase to missile spread or even a possible miss on some missiles.
Stop talking sense in the forums! -1 for forum etiquette
I like it. Couple wuth the always asked for, it should have been back LONG AGO collision/knockdown and we would see far less ECM lights running up to get between the legs of larger/heavier mechs.
while I have only read a sample of the replies, I feel that this is a good change, and will bring missile use back into the game the way it was meant to be. ECM was never meant to be a complete you can't see me blanket to hide under... I know that there will be those who will try to brush me aside, but I am so sick of all the damn nerfing of missiles that it's about time we got something back in favor of them. Even in cw, the covers on the gens I feel have gone too far, as they should never have been blocked completely from missiles being used against them... Give it a single built in ams if you want, but it's a standard one, not upgraded like what we can put on mechs...
Ams has also effectively been somewhat nerfed by all of the nerfs against missile useage, which has in effect made the system redundant for alot of players, mostly because of the ecm abuse out there. Yes, ecm has it's place, but so do missiles... this game was not based soley on ballistics and energy weapons... and was never meant to be. Every player in the game develops a preference for specific systems, it's a natural thing... but it's pushing things a tad too far when some go so far as to campaign to tr yto kill off 1/3 of the game weapons systems, which you have to admit, is effectively what was attempted
Galenthor Kerensky, on 22 July 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:
while I have only read a sample of the replies, I feel that this is a good change, and will bring missile use back into the game the way it was meant to be. ECM was never meant to be a complete you can't see me blanket to hide under... I know that there will be those who will try to brush me aside, but I am so sick of all the damn nerfing of missiles that it's about time we got something back in favor of them. Even in cw, the covers on the gens I feel have gone too far, as they should never have been blocked completely from missiles being used against them... Give it a single built in ams if you want, but it's a standard one, not upgraded like what we can put on mechs...
Ams has also effectively been somewhat nerfed by all of the nerfs against missile useage, which has in effect made the system redundant for alot of players, mostly because of the ecm abuse out there. Yes, ecm has it's place, but so do missiles... this game was not based soley on ballistics and energy weapons... and was never meant to be. Every player in the game develops a preference for specific systems, it's a natural thing... but it's pushing things a tad too far when some go so far as to campaign to tr yto kill off 1/3 of the game weapons systems, which you have to admit, is effectively what was attempted
Check out Tennex's post on page one, buddy. I think he's got the right idea when it comes to information warfare in MWO.
If anyone is interested I have a solution to this. A solution would be adding layers to the custimizing process. For instance a minor change to the modual process would solve everything. As an example, clicking on a spot for the radar that is inside a mech that we cannot usually touch. The change would be a minor one that still earns the company money. By clicking on the radar (or any internal function) it would bring up a box with its own moduals. Using radar still as an example, options of unlockable with exepriance that we already have for Cbills or MC is the same process but, the ability to add ECM, BAP, sesmic and 360 target retention to the players choosing to that radar. It allows greater custimizing profits for the company (in buying Cbills or MC for power players). Yes, it would change the current modual process to allow for more moduals than we are currently alotted in a mech. A way to control this would be in the elite and master stages to open up areas in the mech like radar modual slots (also for heat suppression, targeting, jump jets on anything ect). This would not need to change the mechs who already have ecm as a varient but having it as an unlocked modual inside already so no loss from that. One thing to remember is that ECM used to protect the player only in the original game, not all allys near. To remedy the everyone has one possibility, getting locked on by an enemy passing by or a visual lock on target would counter it as always. Problem solved...
I've just mastered 3 Hellbringers. I've used ECM on each and every variant, for every build.
I haven't been killed by a lock-on weapon even a single time during this period. Haven't used them either. Lock-on weapon are currently clearly sub-par to direct fire. Mostly because of ECM.
In my opinion, ECM should not prevent missile locks, only slow them down.
I'm glad to actually see that you are finally looking into ECM.... AND to see that you (Paul) actually had a second post in this discussion. It's a little thing but it does mean a lot when you come here and actually attempt to engage your player base here.
The ecm thing, well its a start. At least like you posted we wont likely see the fully covered blobs quite as much which will be fantastic. 60m I'm sure would be just fine as well, but as quite a few other suggested this might be the time to break it right down and implement it as guardian, angel and null sig in separate units.
Hopefully that/this change and the overhaul will give you guys the room to make missiles LOS only or share with tag/narc, it would add a lot of depth to the support roles.
Well thanks for the update and posts, hopefully this means you guys at PGI will start to interact with your community once again and make it a more positive place for the game to live and develop.
90m radius for ECM is a good start. Please buff the AMS, since in my opinion its not that worth it to counter missiles. I don't see much people useing AMS (including me) purely because ECM does all the job. Nerving the ECM and buffing AMS will also result that LRM/Streak boats have something to shoot at but the victim is still able to defend it self due some proper AMS. In this current state AMS is underwhelming and not worth the tonnage/space because ECM is much more effective.
The goal is to split Information Warfare system from the Missile Lock system. At this time ECM covers both and therefore needs to be in a more specific role (which is in my opinion Information Warfare). AMS is meant for defending against missiles which fits in the Missile Lock system
To add to my previous post here and to address the LRM fear issue. The answer would be in to changing the way LRMs go after their target.
(Previous Post):
Spoiler
While indeed a much needed change, the core mechanics must change.
ECM must be changed from a radar stealth field, information and guided missile denial system to an information denial system and guided missile counter measure.
This means ECM should no longer make the user and those around them incapable of being targeted. Instead ECM will deny those who are targeting the user and those within the 180m bubble from transmitting their location information as well as an increased time to gather Target Information(Paper Doll data as well as missile lock on times.
The systems that denied or bypassed ECM are to be changed back. UAV, NARC, TAG, and Beagle Active Probe will no longer disable and or bypass ECM. The user with that equipment will be the only one benefiting from the increased data reception, but will be unable to transmit it.
BAP will instead allow the user who has it installed to detect if there is an ECM user near by. This means those who do not have BAP installed will not receive the "Low Signal" warning.
PPCs and another ECM however will still be capable to disrupting an enemy ECM.
ECM should also change how missiles behave. Instead of denying a lock on to LRMs and SSRMs, ECM will disable LRM and SRM ARTERMIS IV equipped enhancements turning them in to standard LRMS and SRMs. Standard LRMs and SSRMs will remain the same, but the moment they enter the ECM field their flight pattern will be scrambled and become erratic,similarly to how they behaved in Beta, leading to an increase to missile spread or even a possible miss on some missiles.
The way the LRMs pick their targets must change to the same way SSRMs pick their target but not as randomized. Meaning each missile will have a designated target upon successful lock on.
This should apply to both Clan and IS.
LRM Damage Spread:
Standard:
LRM 5: 1 L. Arm, 1 R. Arm, 1 L. Torso, 1 R. Torso, 1 C. Torso.
LRM 10: 1 L. Arm, 1 R. Arm, 1 L. Leg, 1 R leg, 2 L. Torso, 2 R. Torso, 2 C. Torso.
LRM 15: 2 L. Arm, 2 R. Arm, 1 L. Leg, 1 R leg, 3 L. Torso, 3 R. Torso, 3 C. Torso.
LRM 20: 3 L. Arm, 3 R. Arm, 2 L. Leg, 2 R leg, 3 L. Torso, 3 R. Torso, 4 C. Torso.
With ARTERMIS IV FCS:
LRM 5: 2 L. Torso, 2 R. Torso, 1 C. Torso.
LRM 10: 1 L. Arm, 1 R. Arm, 3 L. Torso, 3 R. Torso, 2 C. Torso.
LRM 15: 2 L. Arm, 2 R. Arm, 4 L. Torso, 4 R. Torso, 3 C. Torso.
LRM 20: 3 L. Arm, 3 R. Arm, 5 L. Torso, 5 R. Torso, 4 C. Torso.
Dumb fired LRMs will follow their arcing and straight flight pattern corresponding to their launcher.
Once the LRM enters the ECM field the stats would change. A-LRM will go revert to standard LRM targets, and standard LRM fight patterns will be erratic.
In addition, the way the missiles are launched must be changes as well. Currently only Clan LRMs fire in a stream which makes them easier to counter. To keep them different from C-LRMs, IS LRMs should fire in salvos of 5 every 0.20 seconds while C-LRMs should be coming out at 1 missile every 0.04 seconds.
Damage must be kept at 1 per missile.
These changes mean LRMs could be less effective at long range meaning that a speed boost must be added. Both IS-LRMs and C-LRMs should travel at speeds of 180 meters per second, changed from the current IS=120 and C=160.
To counter the possible more effective speeds, AMS range should be increased to a base of 250m.
If ECM remains more useful than a single AMS wth 1 ton of ammo and no AMS modules, then it's still not a balanced price of equipment. 1.5 tons, 2 slots.
I really think ECM should have a very low range, and fudge your own Mech's sensors when it's active. Then you won't need a "counter ECM" mode, you'd have modes for your other "on" or "off" to toggle as you play. BAP would not counter ECM by disabling it (which is folly), but rather by cutting through it so the Mech with BAP can still target that ECM Mech within a particular range.
So, a Mech with BAP can target the ECM Mech within a range, and share the targeting info. That, right there, would be a good step toward information warfare. ECM shortens detection range and has a small bubble so Scouts can move around the map with less risk of detection; BAP makes it easier to target them without their ECM physically shutting down.
Edited by Prosperity Park, 23 July 2015 - 08:30 AM.
The range change is welcome from the information warfare point of view, but i'm not sure about how consistent it will be with the new information/role warfare incoming structure.
If you really want to understand how the new range will influence the new information/role warfare maybe you guys should wait untill it's ready and bring it all live together, instead of slowly changing things bit by bit so you have a better global understanding of the changes
Forgive me if this has already been said, but how about making ECM at least 5 tons, and designing it so it ONLY covers the ECM mech.... Why should a 1 ton ECM have the ability to shield 12 mechs? Seems ridiculous to me..
I think we are not looking to the root of the problem, ECM come to play to counter what? - LRMs witch become an easy way and easy solution of what we had for a long time - simply configurations, single weapon metas and min/maxing. This is just further simplification of gameplay.
ECM is the only way of preventing to game to fully fall flat and allowing to bombard opposition to death - easy win is what people strife for, they don't care about the gameplay that they are killing. And indirect "Press To Win" is ultimate end.
PGI take a note from a MOBAs if you wish to go cyber sports - there are always multiple configurations for each of the game scenarios. Yes, people strife to do same thing there, but there they try do build a diversity.
I think we should slower the LRM reload cycles - the bigger the LRM rack, the longer it takes to load them, if the ammo located not near the weapon - further double the reload. With this possible solution we will have ability to make high power LRMs and they will require tactical and thoughtful use, extra beneficial if coordinated.
Second we need Energy Weapon reactor draw power limits based on chassis, if certain stock config have 15 damage output by energy weaponry, then any change that exceeds this output will cause drawbacks, like the same longer recharge.
Those are examples of of solutions that may be contemplated over. ECM is a small part of them.
Regardless how I adopted to the change of lesser ECM cover - we field more ECM mech. For CW now I run 3 out of 4 mechs are ECM carriers. Only mech of them that make me happy is Griffin 2N - he comes stock a way it is playable these days...
P.S. I blame people for all balance mess we have, all those who play for win and disregarding fun. It's not healthy competition we having, just dirty fighting. We have no choice to enforce restrictions to set things different.
with all the ecm mechs I see out there lately even with the diminished ranged there are so many of them out there they'll still be able to cover everyone- it'll just take the now usual 5 or 6 ecm mechs per team instead of the former 2-3 ecm mechs.
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