945 replies to this topic

[Damocles]

the LRM hate thread is hilarious.

[Bandaron]

I guess when I read "a significant change to ECM" I expected something a little more dramatic than a range nerf. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the greater issue with ECM has always been it's a 1.5 ton item that extremely limits battlefield info for all enemies AND can completely or effectively disable entire classes of enemy weaponry AND stacks against counter-countermeasures AND makes it effectively impossible to balance different models of the same chassis (when was the last time you saw an Atlas-RS in CW?). The range nerf certainly helps, but I think more comprehensive changes will be needed to create conditions for the role warfare I think you're after.

I hope that the change/revisit/remove coming for the quirk system tends more toward change and less toward remove, because what you have in place is working fairly well, after considerable tinkering (and yes, certain clan mechs still need some love), and any new system would lose the benefit of all that tinkering and have to start from square one. I do think there's room for a much greater variety of quirks than the current suite of weapons-and-movement quirks, and I hope that's what you have in mind with quirks for ecm, sensor strength and so on. I'd just encourage PGI to keep in mind the old saying about babies and bathwater. What we have now is immeasurably better than what came before.

[Dermot Von Jankmon]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

I am fine with an ECM range decrease, even down to 60meters. What I don't want you guys to get any funny ideas about is getting rid of it's ability to hide my dorito at long range, and interfering with lock on systems.

I use ECM FIRST to protect MYSELF from being highlighted, and missile locked. Sharing it with friends is just a bonus that I use out of curtousy; take that away before you take away my missile defense system.

That is what AMS is for....

Edit to add to this:

Most of this thread is like Damocles said...a LRM hate thread. As someone who has both used LRMS and fallen victim to them. Y'all are acting like ECM is the only counter when it isn't. AMS and using your head is your best counter. I've dumb fired both C-LRMs and IS-LRMs and killed ECM mechs before with that tactic no problem. I've also avoided LRMs rather easily when NOT in an ECM mech. The secrets to this? Using your brain. If you know they have or might have LRMs don't just run out into the open all willy nilly. This isn't call of duty. Move from cover to cover and try to flank. Its not hard. That said sometimes just charging in can be fun even when it results in your death. Also like I already said... AMS is your friend. Almost all of my mechs that can run AMS have it installed 1.5 tons for AMS and 1 Ton of Ammo. You aren't giving up much for it guys. As for the ones that don't have it. Its really just my locusts, commandos and spiders cause they move fast enough I don't need to worry about it. I can just 'dodge' the missiles

Edited by Dermot, 23 July 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[Davegt27]

So Bap is going to get nerfed

Crap

My Streaks are going to take a big hit

Oh well it was fun while it lasted

I usually did a self nerf on my streaks since they worked so go I was afraid they would get nerfed

I better get the streak wolf out and start inserting missiles before they go bye bye

[Warzog]

Personally, I think that ECM should only protect the mech that has it installed.
And, since most mechs that can equip ECM are scout mechs, primarily lights and a few mediums, they could actually use a bit more protection from all of the missile boats out there.
If I had my way, ECM equipped mechs could only be targeted with direct line of sight.
After all, scouts are meant to be able to run in and back out with virtual impunity, and only showing their vulnerability in a protracted battle.
Geez I miss the double blind classic battletech matches.

[DeathlyEyes]

Remove indirect LRM fire without TAG spotting and I'd be ok with this. You are effectively doing a massive 5x nerf to affect the Hellbringer and Shadowcat.

180m = 25446 area
90m = 6361 area

I thought we were done with massive balance changes.

Dermot, on 23 July 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

That is what AMS is for....

Edit to add to this:

Most of this thread is like Damocles said...a LRM hate thread. As someone who has both used LRMS and fallen victim to them. Y'all are acting like ECM is the only counter when it isn't. AMS and using your head is your best counter. I've dumb fired both C-LRMs and IS-LRMs and killed ECM mechs before with that tactic no problem. I've also avoided LRMs rather easily when NOT in an ECM mech. The secrets to this? Using your brain. If you know they have or might have LRMs don't just run out into the open all willy nilly. This isn't call of duty. Move from cover to cover and try to flank. Its not hard. That said sometimes just charging in can be fun even when it results in your death. Also like I already said... AMS is your friend. Almost all of my mechs that can run AMS have it installed 1.5 tons for AMS and 1 Ton of Ammo. You aren't giving up much for it guys. As for the ones that don't have it. Its really just my locusts, commandos and spiders cause they move fast enough I don't need to worry about it. I can just 'dodge' the missiles

AMS dose pretty much nothing against LRM boats.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 24 July 2015 - 01:20 AM.

[NuclearPanda]

I for one welcome our new LRM overlords





In all seriousness though, ECM did need to get the nerf bat in some regards.

[hashtagampersand]

If I have direct line of sight to an opponents battlemech, I should still be able to target you. You may not show up on radar, but if I am on a hill and can see you it makes sense I should be able to "spotting" on you. ECM is more to help flank and such, out of line of sight, requiring scout battlemechs to find the enemy forces.

[B O A]

ECM is working as intended, if you do not like it, then install Beagle/Clan Active Probe to counter it.

[NuclearPanda]

It's not though. The radius is way too large. It works as intended, sure, but the issue is the radius. The "magical Jesus box" shouldn't extend that much.

[FilthyPeasant]

I'm all for reducing the ECM umbrella but only if other balances are made. For example, if I run a mech and outfit it based upon it's perks, I am sometimes penalized for that as the match rewards are mainly due to overall damage done. This is a problem (see scenario below).

I run a FS9-A, which has SPL perks. Do to range restraints, I may not be able to get close enough on a regular basis during a match to do a lot of damage. At the end of the match, my score is lower as are my rewards. Some might think that working with the perks in this way reduces rewards and outfits the mech for longer range thereby negating the perks for that mech.

Further, if I feel I need to outfit outside of the perks then I might as well not own that mech and only own the mech with the higher range weapons perks.

Is this issue planned to be addressed as well within the overall game rebalance?

Edited by FilthyPeasant, 24 July 2015 - 05:34 AM.

[NuclearPanda]

The problem I see with this is that is you're in a light mech, running SPLs, you're not supposed to "do a lot of damage". You're a support mech, you're a scout, and you use your maneuverability to flank and get around while supporting your larger teammates who may be fielding AC20s, LPLs, etc.

They're going to "do a lot of damage". You're there to distract in a FS while the heavies/assaults are doing the brunt of the frontal assault.

ECM range reduction shouldn't hurt you in theory.

[FilthyPeasant]

NuclearPanda, on 24 July 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

The problem I see with this is that is you're in a light mech, running SPLs, you're not supposed to "do a lot of damage". You're a support mech, you're a scout, and you use your maneuverability to flank and get around while supporting your larger teammates who may be fielding AC20s, LPLs, etc.

They're going to "do a lot of damage". You're there to distract in a FS while the heavies/assaults are doing the brunt of the frontal assault.

ECM range reduction shouldn't hurt you in theory.

Nuclear,

I believe that I may have caused some confusion, and for that I'm sorry. The crux of the matter in my original post is that the game rewards based on damage more than anything else. As such, regardless of the role I choose, using SPLs to capitalize on the mech's given perks is a detriment and might keep people from using said mech as much. If that happens then there will be little incentive for people to use the mech with the perks for weaker, shorter ranged weapons.

When I think about overall balance as the OP mentioned, I consider the different mechs, their varients, and the niche roles that they were made. If a variant is not used much because of a perk detriment, why have that mech at all? So my question to the OP is whether that part of the game mechanics will be addressed too.

[xe N on]

The whole information warfare in MWO is complete crap.

Starting with that any mech has the same detection range up to that any mech is detected at the same range, and finally, there is no passive radar modus.

Information warefare need to be much more complexer:

- detection range based on mech class (e.g. L/M/H/A: 500/600/700/800)
- within detection range computers should able to pre-calculate weapon lead
- multiple radar modi (active, passive, reactive)
- customizable sensors - there is actually a "sensor" slot in any mech (heat, night, seismic, controllable UAV, satellite scan, etc.)
- alternative mech skills that increase sensor range or decrease detection
- ECM should give a fixed decrease to detection disadvantage (e.g. -300 detection range) instead of completely hiding a mech
- ECCM

Edited by xe N on, 24 July 2015 - 07:25 AM.

[NuclearPanda]

Filthy Peasant-

Thanks for clarifying.

I completely agree with you. Being a founding kickstarter of this game, and having played for years now, through thick and thin, a large problem this game has had and still to this day suffers from is the lack of one of the original ideas which was ROLE WARFARE.

As it stands now within the game, which at it's core is still just a stompy mech game about who can do the most damage, ECM kind of is overpowered.

I too like to run random mechs that are not the norm and mess around with varying loadouts without resorting to the current meta or whatever is the flavor of the month.

[CJF Artem]

B O A, on 24 July 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

ECM is working as intended, if you do not like it, then install Beagle/Clan Active Probe to counter it.

Nice joke sir ! Install BAP vs 3-6 ECM mechs in enemy team each match xD

[Sergeant Miles]

Lower the ECM range. NO.

I hate the idea. I invested and have made plans around it.

Now your going to take away the advantage I paid for... that I earned...

and your changing how the game has ALWAYS worked.. even in the table top game.

Stop messing with the basic rules because some people ***** about them to much... they want an easier game.

I HATE THIS idea... I already don't like CW .. it's to boing.

Now you wish to take away the fun I'm having with my favorite mechs... NO... STOP messing with how the game works at the basic levels................................................................................................................................................................... Are you wanting old players like me to leave the game.. WTF.......................... STOP MESSING with the basics........ ECM was good the way it was.... DON'T MESS it up. Stop making the game easier for people who complain it's to hard

Edited by Sergeant Miles, 24 July 2015 - 08:31 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

There needs to be some LRM rework, and "role warfare" stuff put in along with these ECM changes. Would really love to see variety loadouts done where range comes at the price of low recycle time, with the newer larger maps it might turn in to more of a mechwarrior feel. I know playing MW2 after playing MWO the LRMs seemed to take an eternity to recycle

Random musings.

If you have LOS to target, LRMs fly straight and faster
if you are piggy backing on someone elses targeting, they do the lob
Light Mechs should get a radar range bonus along with seismic sensor allowing targeting through walls within say 10M...get them scouting
Drop the # of missiles per salvo so AMS is more effective

Look at increasing LRM ammo explosion rate( F you boats!) and put in ammo jettison hotkey, use them as intended..to soften up targets.

put LRM, erppc and gauss range near eachother, personally would love to see a swarm of missiles heading straight at a sniper hiding in background, they could counter by bringing AMS which eats up tonnage.

With longer matches and more strategy there should be a reward for how long the match goes as well, I believe that's the primary complaint for many people is that they want to farm but people hiding and taking their time cut in to cbill earnings.

[Flashover23]

Damocles, on 23 July 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

the LRM hate thread is hilarious.

It is amazing how many people have yet to master the skill of "ducking".

Radar Dep, ECM, AMS from multiple mechs covering the target, handy buildings, all are counters to LRMs.

The players who complain about them being an "easy button" are the same pop tarts who want to hop up and hose down opponents from laser/gauss/PPC boats with their own "easy button" and were bitching about the old 'jump jet nerf' so now they have to walk in the open like everyone else.

'Fire and maneuver', kids. Not "throw a forum/Twitter tantrum until they give me a cookie and make it less like Battletech".

Or go back to Counter Strike. (or whatever the kiddies are playing these days)

[Man with Axe]

It is a mistery to me, why does Paul Inouye care about the 'magic bubble' but care not about the 'magic invisibility' after three years since he insisted on that idiocy? What is this a selective kind of 'care'? It is ridiculous and it will push players further to run ECM mechs. It is 4-5 of them currently in every team and I afraid to imagine how many more there will be.

Paul, remove 'invisibility' effect from ECM - as you have been told years ago!