945 replies to this topic

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

All these changes will do is make my play style even more deadly. Unless I am running with my clan I prefer to play lone wolf style, pretty much never travel with my team. I am totally kool with 80 or even 60m range, you cannot even guess how many times ecm has given up my location....all the better to assassinate you with , it will allow my griffin 2n to be uber deadly as i will be able to get into super efficient range and take a lot of mechs out in a single alpha.. WIN WIN

Edited by Nosferatu 666, 26 July 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

I think part of the problem here is also that clan mechs can utilize ECM much more freely than IS can. For instance, ECM can be run on ANY Hellbringer Chassis, not just the one that is meant to have it. Part of the solution MUST be to make the ECM slot FIXED to that particular chassis variant, not have it transferable to any other via the omni-pod.

[Bellum Dominum]

Oplix, on 26 July 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Now I am speaking from a purely CW standpoint here but I don't think this ECM change means much and might even hurt IS more then Clans.

Clans now have a very good light mech which is on par with the IS firestarter 5 tons lighter and has ECM to boot.

In CW clan 12 mans are now bringing 3 waves of ECM mechs (2x HBR, 1 ACH) with the last 12 mechs being Timber Wolfs (basically 8 ECM mechs per wave)

with this many ECM mechs the effective ECM range tweak really does nothing because they have so much ECM on their side and hurts IS more because all their ECM mechs are tier 1 where our ECM mechs are far worse.

You say well IS could bring more ECM but

D-DC - Too Heavy for CW decks and short range
2N - Our only high end ECM mech but its to short range
0XP - Low slung arms too short range
3L - No Jump Jets

All the clan ECM mechs are long range mechs so our ECM mechs are basically useless because they are all short range mechs which kinda kills ECM in its own way. IS ECM mechs are all "tier 2" or much lower where all clan ECM mechs are tier 1.

When this happens there is no way to effectively target the other team and it just makes the already better clan mechs even harder to fight.

The clans have way to many and far superior ECM mechs.

You are leaving out other great IS ECM mechs... cicada, spider... for just a couple quick referrences. Also all ECM mechs (IS or CLAN) can be long range.

ECM hurts direct fire as much as it does missile locks... that is if you are actually location targeting instead of just vomiting all over the enemy.

Edited by Death Drow, 26 July 2015 - 08:50 PM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Boaz Roshak, on 26 July 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

We need a way to SEE that a leg is missing much like how we can see the arms are gone.

They have it now so damage on mechs shows... seems reasonable they could finally have a leg actually be gone when it's blown off. Tired of going for the 'good' leg and having a smart player using their non-existant but magically shielding leg in the way.

[ChewBaka]

Drunken Skull, on 26 July 2015 - 01:04 AM, said:

Wow, you REALLY HATE LRM, don't you?
As for the Racks being explosive, I thought this was already the case. AFAIK It's the reason the Catapult has Doors on it's launchers, effectively, when the launcher has it's it's door open, it has it's internal structure directly exposed, bypassing any armour in that section of the mech.

As for the score of the Hbk, I think you will find that this is due to the QUIRKS Applied to that mech, and has nothing to do with the performance of LRM in general.
I find most of what you say to be simply scare-mongering and psychological warfare, using th catch-phraze "LURMAGEDDON!!! Nobody will play!!!" as your proverbial battle-axe.

Its not that I hate LRMs. I used them plenty myself and some of my mechs do carry them. Heck, 2 of my mechs are LRM boats. I think they are cheese personified. Its so easy to do well with them in PUGS and get stupidly high scores and lots of money. It only got trickier of late due to the prevalence of ECM.
For me, the hard counter of ECM actually forced LRM boats to do some work. If there's no light willing to be a scout, than they need to get out there and NARC or TAG themselves. Good. You have armor. Share in the dmg too. Can't expect brawlers alone to take all the hits. I hate when a LRM boat goes "locks please". Lazy bums. I never asked for them when I play a LRM boat. I always carry a TAG and get within sight too so that Artemis kicks in.
Until PGI figures out how to fix AMS issues as well as ensure that LRM5 and 10s scatter their dmg more instead of homing in on the torso (don't tell me that's working as intended, else its broken as ****), ECM is the only recourse.
Fact is whenever LRMs become a little too powerful without an effective counter for them, PUG games do indeed degenerate into LRMageddon, whether you like it or not. Sure, they disappear in higher level play but they are stupidly common in PUGs. What are a newbie's first few games likely going to be? Yes...PUGs.
So how is their experience going to be like? LRMs raining on them. At this point, they'll either think "this game sucks balls" or "maybe I should use them too". The former is obviously bad for PGI. The latter means we get another player who likes easy solutions which is also bad, because once he goes a little higher up the ELO and finds LRMs aren't all that, he's also going to go "this game sucks balls".
What now?

If we want to go by MWO lore when it comes to ECM, fact is boating is extremely dumb except for on certain mech variants like the Catapult which has its own vulnerabilities. Right now, I see Atlai and other assaults boating LRMs and that's just plain silly. There are Stormcrows and Griffins boating LRMS even and their entire playstyle is based off constantly running out of range and letting those LRM5s slowly core out your CT. That sort of player, I totally want to stamp out. Its not strategic anymore. Its just lame. You have an idea to nerf ECM without encouraging this sort of behaviour, I'm all ears actually.

Edited by Charlie Pohr, 26 July 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[Thor 33]

I've talked about how I'd like ECM to be changed before. I like that it needs to be shorter ranged due to differences in mechanics between TT and this game. Also, there needs to be more of an in game negative to ECM other than the weight and slots taken-this is minimal. ECM in its current form is an ACTIVE jammer. I say that any mech ACTIVELY jamming should show up on EVERYONE'S map ALL THE TIME, regardless of terrain. You still couldn't target them, but you would know where they are. I've been in the electronic warfare business for 20 years and I know how the RF spectrum works. When someone is transmitting, its easy to locate them. The only way ECM can prevent a 'lock' for missiles is to actively jam it. Period. So, make some kind of in game trade off for ECM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Thor 33, on 26 July 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

I've talked about how I'd like ECM to be changed before. I like that it needs to be shorter ranged due to differences in mechanics between TT and this game. Also, there needs to be more of an in game negative to ECM other than the weight and slots taken-this is minimal. ECM in its current form is an ACTIVE jammer. I say that any mech ACTIVELY jamming should show up on EVERYONE'S map ALL THE TIME, regardless of terrain. You still couldn't target them, but you would know where they are. I've been in the electronic warfare business for 20 years and I know how the RF spectrum works. When someone is transmitting, its easy to locate them. The only way ECM can prevent a 'lock' for missiles is to actively jam it. Period. So, make some kind of in game trade off for ECM.

So please explain F-117, or B2, etc etc etc etc.

[ApolloKaras]

Death Drow, on 26 July 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

So please explain F-117, or B2, etc etc etc etc.

The jammers would have only been effective for the craft that was being targeted. the F-117 would have only used that as a last resort option anyway. You can't use the jammers on the nighthawk to cover a 180 meter bubble. There's a difference.

[Bellum Dominum]

Saxie, on 26 July 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

The jammers would have only been effective for the craft that was being targeted. the F-117 would have only used that as a last resort option anyway. You can't use the jammers on the nighthawk to cover a 180 meter bubble. There's a difference.

Oh I'm all for ECM only on the mech it's equipped upon but to say active ECM makes a piece of equipment HOT to all in sensor range is flipping rediculas. SR-71 way back in 1956 (or 57) was using active ECM to evade enemy radar. All these birds use it to prevent missile lock as well (another thing Thor said doesn't happen). Now wide band 'black out area' style of jamming is one thing but that's not done to 'cloak' as much as to simply over flood sensors from being able to make out a single target which I guess one could say is a bit closer to what we currently have in MWO but still... bleh.

Most recently was the F-22 that used it to not only avoid but to come along side (yards within tip to tip) of the Iranian Fighters to 'influence' them to return to their own airspace. DoD just released that story what last week?

Edited by Death Drow, 27 July 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Bloodweaver, on 26 July 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

But you're wrong about the reasons for that, as well as for saying that Clan ECM options so drastically surpass Inner Sphere ECM options. First, the Inner Sphere has more ECM 'Mechs than that:

(Edited in the quoted mechs)

D-DC - Too Heavy for CW decks and short range
2N - Our only high end ECM mech but its to short range
0XP - Low slung arms too short range
3L - No Jump Jets
Locust PB
Commando 2D
Spider 5D
Cicada 3M

That is 8 Mechs for the inner sphere to bring. Now lets count the Clan mechs that can carry ECM;

MLX Prime with C left arm
MLX A with C left Arm
MLX B with C left Arm
MLX C
MLX D with C left Arm

ACH Prime
ACH A with Prime left torso
ACH B with Prime left torso
ACH C with Prime left torso

KFX Prime with C right arm
KFX A with C right arm
KFX B with C right arm
KFX C

SHC Prime with B left torso
SHC A with B left torso
SHC B
SHC P with B left torso

HBR Prime
HBR A with Prime left torso
HBR B with Prime left torso

But you are right, the 8 IS mechs with ECm are a lot less than the measly 20 mechs the Clans have,

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 27 July 2015 - 01:24 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Rushin Roulette, on 27 July 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

That is 8 Mechs for the inner sphere to bring. Now lets count the Clan mechs that can carry ECM;

MLX Prime with C left arm
MLX A with C left Arm
MLX B with C left Arm
MLX C
MLX D with C left Arm

ACH Prime
ACH A with Prime left torso
ACH B with Prime left torso
ACH C with Prime left torso

KFX Prime with C right arm
KFX A with C right arm
KFX B with C right arm
KFX C

SHC Prime with B left torso
SHC A with B left torso
SHC B
SHC P with B left torso

HBR Prime
HBR A with Prime left torso
HBR B with Prime left torso

But you are right, the 8 IS mechs with ECm are a lot less than the measly 20 mechs the Clans have,

you are bad in combinatorics :3

it's (the number of non-ecm omnipods i.e. 7) in (the number of chassis version) power of mechs!

7^5 ecm lynxes!
7^4 ecm cheaters!
7^4 ecm cute foxes!
7^4 ecm sad cats!
7^3 ecm hellies!

it's 24353 ecm clan mechs

inner sphere needs an urgent influx of ecm mechs

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 27 July 2015 - 01:35 AM.

[Lily from animove]

I doubt active and passive radars will help a lot, not with the scale that MWO maps do have, they seem to be way too small for this. My guess then would be everyone running on passive all day.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 July 2015 - 04:45 AM.

[Brizna]

Reducing ECM range form 180m to 90M is not something I would describe as "major change" not by a long shot.

[BUMMBUMM]

funny how many discussions turn to whining about lrms, which are the worst weapon branch immo.

anyway if u want to make information warfare a thing, the single most important aspect to consider, would be making the spotter role worthwhile in 2 steps.
1. MO MONEY!
Currently its an awful waste of time and c-bills if uavs are used.
maybe a spotter helps the team to counter a flanking or highlight single uncovered mechs for easy destruction or give some lrm spotting assist.
But most of the time spotting just substracts the spotters firepower from battle, like someone beeing afk or disconnected.
Meaning u decrease your teams chances to win more often than not, plus ur xp and cbill earnings are almost the same like when ure afk/disconnected.

2. Effectiveness
Scouting just with standard sensors is duuuuh!
so u bring at least a TAG and if u manage to keep it on target ppl still have a hard time locking on lrms on ecm-mechs, WHY?
and narc wow... falls off before second volley of lrm comes in, and it doesnt do doodie about ecm anyway...

PS: this is PUG point of view

Edited by BUMMBUMM, 27 July 2015 - 08:32 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

I like what I saw, and I also like that you guys are going to go about this GRADUALLY....no more 18% nerfbats please and thank you.

[Boaz Roshak]

A badly damaged leg and a missing leg look the same on a mech visually. I should not have to get the lock on to the mech to be able to tell that a leg is missing when I finally get to see its damage and you are 100% right about being able to block with the missing leg. If they are unable or unwilling to have the blown off leg go away all damage done to it should be applied to the other leg.

[Psimon Drake]

Definately excited about a rebalancing. There have been so many bandaids applied to the core rules that it's not really manageable anymore. I suggest as part of this rebalancing we should get a new baseline established.
- Remove phantom heat
- Un-nerf all nerfs
- Remove all quirks
- Make LRMs faster, but track slower (much slower turn rate).
- This way you won't need that silly damage scale you gave Caln LRMs. They won't be streak 20s if they can't hit the target.

Really, I am looking forward to the rebalancing... and the rescaling of mechs... and the upgrading of the old maps... and bring all maps into CW... and MW4 style Joystic control.

(Okay, those last two might be a pipe dream, but a man can hope.)

Thanks,
Psi

[xXBagheeraXx]

Chameleon257, on 15 July 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

I find it funny the same people that spout off about TableTop are some of the same people that complain about LRM spam. I haven't played one Tabletop game that LRMs were not used.

As far as ECM I'd love it if it only made the mech that used it protected. PGI obviously is only loosely modeling this game over the BT universe not the table top.

Ive said this a million times when ECM was first implemented. THey should come in 2 flavors. Guardian ECM and Angel ECM. Guardian ecm would reduce the range at which you could be targeted, say 500 meters or so and 600 meters for beagle equipped mechs, It would also make missile locks take longer to lock onto you. THis could be a module most/many mechs could carry, but it would only protect the carrying mech. This would be useful on long range builds so you could hurt the enemy without fear of counter fire from LRMS, and help brawlers get closer undetected. However you can still be detected if someone gets close enough to you, or tags you at long range.

Angel ecm could fucntion like the current ECM, but only a select few mechs would be able to equip it. And it would not jam enemy sensors if you got close, but you would be unable to target or lock anything within the effects of Angel ECM.


Also, why couldn't we buff the range on Tag to 900-1k meters? That way anything they can physically see they would be able to tag and fire upon. LRM boats willing to risk thier skin to spot thier own targets would get rewarded and it would help focus the ECM carriers out of the deathblob.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 28 July 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Psimon Drake, on 28 July 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

Definately excited about a rebalancing. There have been so many bandaids applied to the core rules that it's not really manageable anymore. I suggest as part of this rebalancing we should get a new baseline established.
- Remove phantom heat
- Un-nerf all nerfs
- Remove all quirks
- Make LRMs faster, but track slower (much slower turn rate).
- This way you won't need that silly damage scale you gave Caln LRMs. They won't be streak 20s if they can't hit the target.

Really, I am looking forward to the rebalancing... and the rescaling of mechs... and the upgrading of the old maps... and bring all maps into CW... and MW4 style Joystic control.

(Okay, those last two might be a pipe dream, but a man can hope.)

Thanks,
Psi

I really think that limited turn rate should apply to streaks as well, then they could get rid of random targeting. and allow them to simply splat into the center of the target..and no i dont all mean hit the center torso, make the spreads wide enoough so they dont all hit one section but just make them fly to the center of the target. Missiles that fly like that can actually be rolled to hit your arms or side torso to spread the damage out.

Those streaks would benifit, if you shot a mech in the face, most of the damage would be focused on the torsos, where you want it, and not randomly hitting all over the bloody mech, but they would also be roll-able, and have a chance of missing if the target is moving laterally in front of you fast enough.

[bad arcade kitty]

xXBagheeraXx, on 28 July 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

I really think that limited turn rate should apply to streaks as well, then they could get rid of random targeting. and allow them to simply splat into the center of the target..and no i dont all mean hit the center torso, make the spreads wide enoough so they dont all hit one section but just make them fly to the center of the target. Missiles that fly like that can actually be rolled to hit your arms or side torso to spread the damage out.

Those streaks would benifit, if you shot a mech in the face, most of the damage would be focused on the torsos, where you want it, and not randomly hitting all over the bloody mech, but they would also be roll-able, and have a chance of missing if the target is moving laterally in front of you fast enough.

bs

if i want to use missiles which cannot turn for sh*t but which don't spread damage i use srm