945 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

ECM, in any BT-based game, should only support the mech it's mounted upon, not the mech pilot's teammate's mechs. If PGI actually understood how EM works, we wouldn't have this issue of them having created a cloaking system, something they said they wanted to avoid.

[Gumon Choji]

Here are the facts on the ground.

1. Ok well now there are many more ECM mechs. = less variety
2. If in a light with ECM people bump you. = Lost legs to bumps which is not fun early in the match. I frequently wish ecm started off if I wished.
3. LRMs are devastating again on new players= Give those champions some ams so they do not rage quit.
4. I like the variety of weapons being improved due to LRMs being viable again. But the mechs are repetitive.









if stalkers, dire wolves and king crabs were not the games easy button that would be amazing.

[happy mech]

Cameron Kane, on 30 July 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Please consider for one moment the effect this will have on player behaviour-especially in solo Q:

More death blobs-peeps will be too scared to move away from each other, thus reinforcing the "stick together" mantra i.e the blob.
More timid play. This is already #1 problem for gameplay quality, people not wanting to be active and take hits. ECM at that range will make people even more afraid to be aggressive. this leads me onto final point:
Lrms. Reduce ECM range and more people will pack more lrms. This will make certain maps (caustic) pure misery. This will be force multiplied by the point above. Caustic for example it will make anything but the outside of the map a death zone.

Please consider what design changes mean to player behaviour!

lrms currently are broken, ecm too
the game needs to redesign the weapons to work with no other systems interfering
flamers, mgs, lasers, ppcs, ballistic, gauss, srm, ssrm, lrm - that is the soup
ecm, bap, tag, narc, dhs/shs, endo, ff, cc, 1/2 ton ammo, jj - that is the flavour that can add some diversity but is not required and absolutely cannot turn the potato soup into a fish soup

make a test game build
strip all support systems and modules, consumables, lock on without los
tone it all down
adjust weapons and test them until a balance is found (i.e. all weapons are usable, boating impossible)
then add support systems, with drawbacks and advantages
rework modules and skill tree (create a tree with choices, for example 50 skills but only 27 points, can reset anytime for free)
remove consumables, help mechs define their roles rather than do anything

how to make all weapons usable?
energy weapons do not require ammunition, their price is higher heat and longer cooldown
ballistic weapons are cooler, higher damage, higher dps, but require ammunition and are heavier
srms have the most damage up close, but the damage spreads and they have short range, require ammunition too, but are rather cool
lrms can shoot over obstacles but very inaccurately, need own locks to be precise, they have good damage but long cooldown
ppcs are instant damage without ammunition, long cooldown, high energy cost
gauss is very cool, but heavy and with long cooldown
flamers increase the heat of the target (depending on how hot the mech is, the hotter the less heat) and of the user (1 heat/s), can overheat the user but cannot raise the heat of the target over some %
mgs have short range, they should be useful at least as the medium laser is

i have made a table

Spoiler

hpd = heat used per 1 point of damage
max range = range*2
for missiles max range = range
 

-LASER-
weapon   sl          ml          ll          erll
               cersl       cerml       cerll
cooldown 2     3     4     5     6     7     8
beam     0.5   0.75  1     1.25  1.5   1.75  2
damage   2.5   3.75  5     6.25  7.5   8.75  10
dps      1     1     1     1     1     1     1
range    150   225   300   400   450   550   600
heat     1     2.25  4     6.25  8.25  10.5  12.5
hpd      0.4   0.6   0.8   1     1.1   1.2   1.25
weight   0.5   0.5   1     1     5     4     5


-PULSE- : 20% more damage, 50% less beam duration, 33% less range
weapon   spl         mpl         lpl
               cspl        cmpl        clpl
cooldown 2     3     4     5     6     7
beam     0.25  0.38  0.5   0.63  0.75  0.88
damage   3     4.5   6     7.5   9     10.5
dps      1,33  1.33  1.33  1.33  1.33  1.33
range    100   150   200   267   300   367
heat     1     2.25  4     6.25  8.25  10.5
hpd      0.33  0.5   0.67  0.83  0.92  1
weight   1     1     2     2     7     6


-PPC-
weapon   ppc         erppc  //alt 
               cerppc              cerppc
cooldown 8     8     8             4
damage   10    10    10            7.5
dps      1.25  1.25  1.25          1.88
range    500   750   750           750
minrange 90    0     0             0
speed    1100  1200  1200          1200
heat     10    15    15            12
hpd      1     1.5   1.5           1.6
weight   7     7     6             6


speed decreasing with range?
major thing - balance cerll, clpl, cerppc


-SMALL-
weapon   mg    flamer
cooldown 0.1   0.1
damage   0.1   0.033
dps      1     0.33
range    120   90
heat     0     0.1
heat dmg 0     0.1
hpd      0     3
weight   0.5   0.5


-BALLISTIC-
weapon   ac2         ac5         ac10        ac20        gauss
               cac2        cac5        cac10       cac20       cgauss
cooldown 1     0.5   2     1     3     1.5   4     2     8+0.5 4+0.5
damage   2     1     5     2.5   10    5     20    10    15    7.5
dps      2     2     2.5   2.5   3.33  3.33  5     5     1.76  1.66
range    700   750   550   600   400   450   250   300   625   675
heat     1     0.5   2     1     3     1.5   4     2     1     0.5
hpd      0.5   0.5   0.4   0.4   0.3   0.3   0.2   0.2   0.07  0.07
weight   6     5     8     7     12    10    14    12    15    12

uac - double tap for 300% heat (uac5 double tap for 6 heat), no jam chance
lbx - spread shots
gauss charge 0.5 sec


-LRM-
weapon   lrm5        lrm10       lrm15       lrm20
               clrm5       clrm10      clrm15      clrm20
cooldown 5     5+0.4 7     7+0.9 9     9+1.4 11    11+1.9
damage   5     5     10    10    15    15    20    20
dps      1     0.92  1.43  1.26  1.67  1.44  1.82  1.55
range    950   950   950   950   950   950   950   950
heat     2     2     3     3     4     4     5     5
hpd      0.4   0.4   0.3   0.3   0.27  0.27  0.25  0.25
weight   2     1     5     2.5   7     3.5   10    5

same spread for 5/10/15/20
clrm fire in a stream, 10 missiles/sec
lock on time depends on distance, reduced by tag, narc, artemis
there is no lock without line of sight
30% accuracy on friendly locks (-70%), +20% for tag, +30% for narc
100% accuracy on own locks, +30% for artemis, higher accuracy reduces the max random distance from the ct


-SSRM-
weapon   ssrm2       cssrm4
               cssrm2      cssrm6
cooldown 4     4+0.1 7+0.3 10+0.5
damage   4     4     8     12
dps      1     0.97  1.09  1.14
range    270   270   270   270
heat     2     2     3.5   5
hpd      0.5   0.5   0.44  0.42
weight   1.5   1     2     3

same spread for 2/4/6
cssrm fire in a stream, 10 missiles/sec
can fire without lock


-SRM-
weapon   srm2        srm4        srm6
               csrm2       csrm4       csrm6
cooldown 2     2+0.1 3     3+0.3 4     4+0.5
damage   4     4     8     8     12    12
dps      2     1.9   2.66  2.42  3     2.66
range    270   270   270   270   270   270
heat     2     2     3.5   3.5   4.5   4.5
hpd      0.5   0.5   0.44  0.44  0.38  0.38
weight   1     0.5   2     1     3     1.5

same spread for 2/4/6
csrm fire in a stream, 10 missiles/sec


set fixed heat cap to 30
make dhs give same dissipation for internal and external hs
remove min 10 hs requirement
unlock clan equipment and upgrades


weapon roles, caps are main
-------------range-----------------------------
|        \   low         medium      high
|         \ 
dps high     BALLISTIC   ballistic
|            SRM
|
|   medium   LASER       LASER       LRM
|                        lrm         ppc
|                                    ballistic
|
|   low      MG                      laser
|            FLAMER
|            SSRM

for sustainable dps, you use ballistic or srm close, smaller lasers are also efficient
further, you can use ballistic or some lasers if have spare heat, possibly lrms
for highest range, have some laser or a lrm backup, unless you run long range acs or can afford a ppc
you need to combine all to build a mech

general rules:
more range, less dps, more heat, longer time to full damage

[Setun]

Cameron Kane, on 30 July 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Please consider for one moment the effect this will have on player behaviour-especially in solo Q:

More death blobs-peeps will be too scared to move away from each other, thus reinforcing the "stick together" mantra i.e the blob.
More timid play. This is already #1 problem for gameplay quality, people not wanting to be active and take hits. ECM at that range will make people even more afraid to be aggressive. this leads me onto final point:
Lrms. Reduce ECM range and more people will pack more lrms. This will make certain maps (caustic) pure misery. This will be force multiplied by the point above. Caustic for example it will make anything but the outside of the map a death zone.

Please consider what design changes mean to player behaviour!

While that idea may initially happen, I don't see that lasting very long. With so many people bunched up like that bumping into each other, the other team who can commit to a push while an arty is dropping will decimate the cowardly team easily. So basically a continuation of how most pug matches go these days.

[Vlad Striker]

Gremlich Johns, on 30 July 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

ECM, in any BT-based game, should only support the mech it's mounted upon, not the mech pilot's teammate's mechs. If PGI actually understood how EM works, we wouldn't have this issue of them having created a cloaking system, something they said they wanted to avoid.

Exactly! ECM "bubble" must be removed from MWO. Delenda est. ECM is active counter measure against enemy targeting system. It's not magic it's physical process. ECM can disorganize microvawe echo signal from one target but it can't simulate radar echo from another target or disorient LIDAR that locks another target.

[Sigmar Sich]

Bubble is not a lie.
Quotes from Sarna:
"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."
"The suite itself consists of a dedicated countermeasures computer tied to electromagnetic sensors positioned around the operating unit. When these sensors detect an electromagnetic wave within range, such as that given off by an active radar, this data is sent to the computer which identifies the threat, adapts to it, and fires a focused electromagnetic pulse at the source. This intense burst of EM radiation can confuse and misdirect the sensor or even force the entire targeting system to reboot."
Quote from TechManual:
"This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV—all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear."

But how it works is more complicated, than we have in MWO.
Battletech Master Rules, page 126:
"ECM SUITE
The Guardian ECM suite... (so it is same piece of equipment we have in game)
...A ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a "bubble" around carrying unit. The ECM's disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM...
...Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not have effect on other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and Clan targeting computers.
Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit will notice it is being jammed.
Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effect of Artemis IV FCS. Artemis equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hit Table bonus is lost.
Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hit Table bonus fir that system if they are affected by ECM..."

So. imagine you are in LRM mech, and you have ECM Raven 300 meters in front of you, and you have juicy fat Daishi standing in open 800 meters from you, on same line you and Raven are. Both you and Daishi are not affected by ECM. But you can't lock on Daishi, because your line of sight to target affected by ECM bubble.
I guess it works same for indirect fire, if spotter's line of sight affected by ECM.
Though i wonder, if in previous example we had a spotter with clear line of sight on Daishi, would we be able to shoot it by indirect fire rules? I guess so.

But that's not the point.
Point is - Artemis do cancel ECM, and Narc probably cancel ECM too, though sacrificing their bonuses. Not BAP, which is actually canceled by ECM itself.
Unless i misunderstood rules..

I would love to see more deep and complex ECM suite rules implementation in MWO.
P.S. ECM as savior from LRM-humiliation. LRMs are fine. True problem is boating. Sniper boats, laser boats - same flaw in gameplay as LRM boats. PGI, please, make rules against boating (add slot limits for hardpoints, like MW4, on top of current hardpoint quantity limits), and gameplay will flourish.

P.S.2 How to limit LRM-humiliation. Easy. Nerf indirect targeting. Rules say - spotting unit can't make its attacks in turn, when he spotting for another unit. Means it is not short process. So, make indirect targeting possible only on targets with gathered targeted information. (Not enough just have red triangle over it, you have to wait until you see name and mech model).

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 31 July 2015 - 02:52 AM.

[Livewyr]

At some point, they will scrap the current ECM implementation (as well as the LRM implementation.)

I just rather hope it is to fix the current silliness with the Angel Void-Sig On/Off Switch and Feast Or Famine Death Swarm...rather than because the servers shut down permanently.

[Lily from animove]

BUMMBUMM, on 27 July 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

1. MO MONEY!

The issue with more money is, how do you differ between REAL scouting and those abusing the way how scouting works to increase the revenue form getting?
As a game dev, you always hve to play vs the mechanic optimising min/max crowd and not only wha lore describes or looks good.

As we had the massice narc and tag bonuses, wow

[Suspect]

Playing my small pulse Arctic Cheetah as a back stabber lately has me thinking that this will slightly buff my play style. I can move in close enough to get the full damage out of the pulses without my target being disrupted. In some cases the low signal notification is the only thing alerting an enemy to the presence of such a threat.(I'm surprised at how many people don't run seismic or have poor awareness) I also regularly run to aid a teammate that has a low signal because I understand that he's probably getting rear cored by a similar light. I'll miss out on those opportunities.

Am I completely off track here?

[Allen Ward]

no one, on 28 July 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

Agreed, ECM should never have been a hard counter against LRM locks, and LRMs should never have been the 'massed rain' weapon they were before ECM was as prevalent as it is now.



Problem:
LRMs are terrible as an individual weapon, because they were brokenly overpowered because they can be fired indirectly en mass. This wasn't an issue in BT because indirect fire only permitted one 'Mech to fire indirectly per 'Mech spotting.

Solution: Give IDF locks a tracking strength (whatever) attribute based on the spotter(s). Arbitrarily, say you get two points per spotter, plus three points if the target's TAGed and plus Four if it's NARCed. . . then ECM cover counters TAG and NARC. Each LRM launcher fired indirectly at a target consumes one point while it's salvo is airborne. If the maximum number of IDF launcher salvos for a target are already airborne then any concurrent attempts at indirect fire will not launch, though locks can be maintained normally. (or you could just do 1 spotter one person doing IDF, whatever).

Problem:
Another reason LRMs can be fired en mass is because the heat system is half-arsed and gives you the entire overheat range penalty free.
Solution:
A well expressed low capacity, high dissipation heat system with overheat penalties.

Problem:
LRMs have bad ammo efficiency, especially in the face of doubled armor and a weapon with no capacity for focused fire.
Solution:
240 missiles per ton for LRMs. 200 for SRMs.

Problem: SRMs and LRMs are slow.
Solution: Increase speeds.

Problem: The critical hit system is a bit junk.
Solution: fix the danged critical system.

There's a fairly important point I'm forgetting but I kinda ran outta steam.
Meh.

Edit - Oh yeah, AMS. It's effectiveness really should scale to the size of a missile salvo somewhat. Having it eat a consistent number of missiles per inbound salvo regardless of overlapping AMS cover would make LRMs much less of a 'feast or famine' weapon. Small launcher load outs could be useful.

LRM 5 -> 0 to 2 missiles destroyed
LRM 10 -> 1 to 3 missiles destroyed
LRM 15 -> 2 to 4 missiles destroyed
LRM 20 -> 3 to 5 missiles destroyed

Missiles are a joke in BT and MWO. and they are even worse in MWO. Individual use is useless, massive use is OP.

Solution: Reduce missile hardpoints on all mechs down to 1 for medium mechs, 2 for heavy and assault mechs. Increase missile speed drastically. LRMs are meant for support. A 3 lance unit should normally have 1-2 mechs carrying LRMs. Clans are a different thing here, especially the heavier chassis bring so many LRMs into the game.

Still LRM boating should be limited. SRMs should be treated like heavy ballistics or larger lasers. You should not have medium or heavy mechs running around with 4+ SRMs (at least no SRM4s/6s). Though I doubt that those SRM boats are a big problem, they hurt but they are not gamebreakers.

LRM boats are. The game should be balanced in a way that 1-2 LRM mechs (not boats) are worthwhile in a team but not so attractive that half the team fields LRM chassis. It's not an easy task. More skill should be involved with LRMs, too. Like having to choose between different firing/targeting modes, adjusting lock-on manually or similar. Fire and forget is boring. Damage is to low unless you massively spam the enemy with several boats. Then the shaking and the constant barrage are devastating. They also turn the game into a camping fest, even more than excessive sniping.

I would immediately buy consumable smoke screen ammo for LRMs. Please bring this on. Make the smoke screens big, dynamic (wind? I doubt we have that in game now) and last for longer than 3 secs please. Could even block low-light and scramble IR vision mode a bit (make the mech silhouettes blurry and flickering).

Suspect, on 31 July 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Playing my small pulse Arctic Cheetah as a back stabber lately has me thinking that this will slightly buff my play style. I can move in close enough to get the full damage out of the pulses without my target being disrupted. In some cases the low signal notification is the only thing alerting an enemy to the presence of such a threat.(I'm surprised at how many people don't run seismic or have poor awareness) I also regularly run to aid a teammate that has a low signal because I understand that he's probably getting rear cored by a similar light. I'll miss out on those opportunities.

Am I completely off track here?

Sporting over 50 mechs I find seismic on every mech a BIT exensive.

[Thuzel]

Seriously? This is still a thing?? After two years??

ECM was an absolute train wreck when you first turned it on, and you're still playing with the same broken mechanics?

I've been checking the forums every month or two to see if someone up there would eventually buy a clue, but apparently that's too much to hope for. Just sell the franchise already. It's painfully obvious you haven't learned anything in the last few years.

Edited by Thuzel, 31 July 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[1Grimbane]

I saw a thread titled ecm changes and knew lulz were to be had reading it. I support the change though... way too many ecm mechs out there now, i should know i can't count how many of mine are ecm capable

Edited by 1Grimbane, 31 July 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[Spudbuddy]

This won't change anything.
If ECM didn't exist at all LRMs would still suck, less damage output than lasers and ballistics for a wider spread of damage distribution so you can't even focus a torso with them.
Nerfing BAP to coincide with an insignificant ECM nerf will probably just end up hurting missile-focused mech builds anyways, especially considering that 90 meters is still a large radius and ECM mechs are everywhere currently.

I find it kind of odd that you'd focus on ECM and BAP changes since they're so disconnected from what is currently underpowered and overpowered in the game. This really won't do anything, especially with how many ECM mechs each team now fields with artic foxes or whatever they are being so powerful.

Edited by Spudbuddy, 31 July 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[NemesisXIII]

It would be nice if a full sensor system were implemented and ECM were "a part" of the whole rather than all we have.

Increase LRM lock time for indirect fire and decrease it for direct fire. We should also be able to fire LRM's directly like SRM's and it would be nice to be able to HOT LOAD LRM's in order to shoot at short range (with the appropriate defect.)

Indirect LRM fire should also have a far greater spread. LRM's were never meant to be the weapon of choice when killing your foes.

[Commissar Aku]

I still don't really get what was wrong with ECM, I mean there is tag, NARC, and BAP/CAP. All work fine and support your team more than ECM did anyway. The only thing wrong with ECM is people use it for a crutch, and everyone else is to self centered to give a **** about the rest of their team and so take fire power over utility every time. It would have been better to just buff the rewards for playing support mechs, but instead they are just making a cluster **** every game, arty is about to become the most powerful weapon in the game.

[Gremlich Johns]

Commissar Aku, on 01 August 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

I still don't really get what was wrong with ECM,

PGI has permitted it to become a "cloak" feature that can be used to mask the existence, at minimum, of a moving lance, despite their denial to the contrary.

[Vlad Striker]

I think ECM mechanics goes well in MechCommander series however non-canonically.
Fantasy canons eventually becomes obsolete especially when have to be apply to real physics.

[Wolfwood592]

Very excited to see this happen and even more excited to see the silly quirk band-aid removed. Good job! Slam the ez mode and drop the hammer. Love it.

[PolyunsaturatedFat]

Can you explain what the intention behind the ECM change is?

This sort of change will have a profound impact on the metagame. Right now, the metagame leans towards direct fire - Laser and/or Gauss. If you nerf ECM range, the meta will swing towards indirect fire, e.g. LRMs.

Personally, I find the direct fire game much more fun than the indirect fire game - I enjoy a game of positioning, line-of-sight, movement, dodging and weaving. That's what makes big stompy robots fun for me.


So again, I ask you, what is the intent of this change? Because the effect will be in the overall gameplay and the dominant metagame, and I'd really hate for MWO to suffer from unintended consequences.

[Anunknownlurker]

@PolyunsaturateFat - I think some change to ECM is absolutely necessary. ECM rules the battlefield and whilst I agree that the "direct" game you describe above is, for most of us, the main thing, there is a place for indirect fire: e.g. forcing the turtled assaults to move or as a "denial of territory" weapon.

Obviously I don't know "their" intention but I would think it is to open up the battlefield a bit and remove the overly powerful cloaking effect of ECM as it currently works. I also hope they are looking at the "must have" aspect of ECM.

With SO many ECM capable mechs now - as has been stated before in this thread but it bears repeating - ANY ECM capable Clan mech WILL be carrying it as things stand, the reward for a mere ton of weight far outweighs the loss of, possibly, one weapon slot, which will probably be balanced by a multi-slot arm omnipod.

Things are slightly different for IS forces but, again, every weight class now has ECM capable chassis and you see more and more of them in game.

I am pleased that PGI is approaching this slowly and carefully with a very minor nerf to ECM to begin with and hopefully they will continue to re-balance this great piece of kit and get it to the stage where we actually have to think about whether to use it.