99 replies to this topic

[bar10jim]

Ihasa, on 19 July 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

I know right? If the large percentage of the player base is solos, as in not in a unit, and premades are a very small percentage of groups, then how is it possible for these guys to have "premade stomp after stomp". Either there are lots and lots of premades, or there aren't and the solos are full of hyperbole and exaggeration. You can't have it both ways.

The seal clubbing baby eaters are not the boogeymen solos make them out to be. yes they win, yes they stomp. But it is not "premade after premade". It's premade every now and then.

Keep in mind that a premade 12 goes to the front of the queue. Therefore, a small number of premade 12's CAN stomp repeatedly.

[Triordinant]

Thumper3, on 23 July 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

Sync dropping? Really? Do you really think that there are that many units full of pilots that want to work THAT hard just to play solos? That is some really far fetched, conspiracy theory stuff. LMAO

It was done a lot in 2012 and 2013 before PGI created a strictly solo-only queue. The old queue allowed 4-man groups and solos in the same match so premade groups were assured a 4-man "core" that they would then try to sync-drop with. They shared the methods they used to do it on the Forums and they also shared how to game the Elo system to get the best results. PGI knows all about it.

[Thumper3]

Triordinant, on 23 July 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

It was done a lot in 2012 and 2013 before PGI created a strictly solo-only queue. The old queue allowed 4-man groups and solos in the same match so premade groups were assured a 4-man "core" that they would then try to sync-drop with.

Yes, I was here then. And the ONLY reason groups did that was because the locked 8 and 12 man ques were empty, so to get a game they had to try to sync drop 4s (because there were no other group sizes allowed, it was 1, 4, or 12) to get matches. Based on how many times I was in games where they ended up on opposing teams and said sorry before suiciding I would say it was not wildly successful.

Groups are NOT going to waste time trying to sync drop, risk being pared with a bunch of solos and then possibly lose a point on the planet simply from lack of cohesion, if they can just group up and go out in force on comms and win.

Again, MAYBE if there is no other way to get a match and frustration sets in, but this is why there can be no solo que until the population is much, much higher.

Sync drops are not a real issue, population size is.

[Triordinant]

Thumper3, on 23 July 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Yes, I was here then. And the ONLY reason groups did that was because the locked 8 and 12 man ques were empty, so to get a game they had to try to sync drop 4s (because there were no other group sizes allowed, it was 1, 4, or 12) to get matches. Based on how many times I was in games where they ended up on opposing teams and said sorry before suiciding I would say it was not wildly successful.

You can only speak for YOUR group and others like it. There will always be groups (and not just in MWO) who sync-drop because they believe it's the fastest way for them to earn profit per hour (fast games vs all-solo teams), avoid groups better than themselves (losing is not profitable) and stroke their epeens while they're at it. To top it off, the problem you mentioned about ending up on opposing teams can't happen in CW, so they CAN be successful.

[Thrudvangar]

lol...

i NEVER, i repeat NEVER drop against other PUGs in CW and i'm playing PUG only... i always drop against premades....
playing half the day CW trying to get ONE win against them... resigning after a few matches because its senseless.

its just a big waste of time. ridiculous waiting times only to get crushed almost every single time makes this game mode stupid and senseless to invest time in it.

Edited by Thrudvangar, 24 July 2015 - 12:47 AM.

[Will HellFire]

Being part of a big unit with lots of good players, I must say I rarely play CW because I rarely find an organized enemy to actually stand up to the oposition. Most of the drops are skittles and, unless I need money fast, its not so interesting.

The matches I have found with an organized enemy team are very, very enjoyable and some of the most memorable games I have had in MWO. I still remember a match against -RS-, another one against Mercstar, Kcom....those are the good times.

[Livewyr]

After playing CW extensively both Solo and in a unit, I'd estimate that I ran into a group(s) of a size greater than 4 about... 30% of the time.
I think perception is probably the biggest deterrent to any new blood.

Plausible example:
I get into match, 12 man of blahblahblah unit, I get stomped.
RAGE THIS IS NOT FAIR WHY I ALWAYSFACE PREMADE@!!@@!@!
Go to forums:
See threads like this one.
RAGE I KNEW IT EVERYONE ALWAYS FACEPREMADE@!@!@!!!!@!@!!@@!

An occasional mound, when repeated wildly and enlarged, becomes a mountain range.

-------------------------------------------------------

And that's not touching on the obvious point:
Community Warfare is where you join a community, for epic community scale battles.

Going to give SWOL a bit of a plug here, but it's exemplary- When Blueduck started that unit, he called for all the casual players in Clan Wolf and I wished him luck. Now he has the largest unit in CW, possibly the clans, and has players of various skill levels. (They even have their name on some planets and find themselves on the leaderboards of unit challenges.)

SWOL Started as an entirely casual unit, inviting entirely casual players. They joined him, and it seems to be working for them.

So, why can't casual players join units?

[Triordinant]

Livewyr, on 24 July 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

So, why can't casual players join units?

All the ones who were able and willing already joined SWOL.

[Leone]

Honestly, I don't get to play against large units enough. Those are fun fights.

Now, I'm not disparaging the common CW pug, and in fact, I enjoy fighting with Falcons, because falcon pugs tend to be decent folk to work with. And I've seen some great matches with dispare forces pulling together and getting some great work done. But truth be told, I learned alotta good stuff going up against cohesive units, and really enjoyed those matches, as they usually tend to work together already. Maybe it's because Falcons are always attacking, and you tend to get more pugs on defence than attack that I don't see em as much? I 'unno.

Sadly, this event seems to have killed CW for the nonce. I get that they want to test the server, but.... but I miss my 80 points in CW to participate in these things.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 24 July 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[Thumper3]

Triordinant, on 24 July 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

You can only speak for YOUR group and others like it. There will always be groups (and not just in MWO) who sync-drop because they believe it's the fastest way for them to earn profit per hour (fast games vs all-solo teams), avoid groups better than themselves (losing is not profitable) and stroke their epeens while they're at it. To top it off, the problem you mentioned about ending up on opposing teams can't happen in CW, so they CAN be successful.

Well, obviously I can only speak for myself......and we are only discussing MWO and the community here, not other games.

And yes, there will always be those anomalies and out-layers who need to stroke their epeens, but those will be just that, the exception, not the rule. And anyway, those types are generally not going to be the top competitive teams who you'll have no chance of beating. Most units including the top teams care more about the challenge than grinding cbills in CW.

And no, they won't end up on opposing sides, but since it would not be implemented until the population is much larger, the chance of them getting on the same team is still small. So more often than not they would end up In a mish mash group, not being cohesive and not rolling the other team so getting less cbills and having it end up a lose-lose.

Your argument is that the cbill/hour will be high, but in reality, since they will not always be matched up and in fact will have more games apart than together, the cbill/hour of grinding out in the non-CW solo would be much much greater still......


But it's all moot anyway because no such system could even be considered until the population size at least triples or quadruples......and that's some time off and lots can happen before then.

Edited by Thumper3, 27 July 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Thrudvangar, on 24 July 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

lol...

i NEVER, i repeat NEVER drop against other PUGs in CW and i'm playing PUG only... i always drop against premades....
playing half the day CW trying to get ONE win against them... resigning after a few matches because its senseless.

its just a big waste of time. ridiculous waiting times only to get crushed almost every single time makes this game mode stupid and senseless to invest time in it.

Let's see...

Who should we believe? PGI with data, data they released, stating premade 12man units are 1% or you, stating that you drop against 12man premade units 100% of the time with no data?

Hmmm....

[QueenBlade]

does it help the situation that I dropped CW solo all day Sunday and didn't once hit any groups bigger than 5 on either my team or the enemy team across multiple planets?

[R 13]

^This.


"ErmahGherd, 12-man OP, stomped errytime!!" is a vocal minority represented by people who have gotten frustrated/had a bad day/did get trolled by a 12-man with a bad attitude.

I (and most in my unit) have a general policy of not taunting PUGs when we do hit them, and these days we'll even usually "politely" end it quickly vs. any/much messing around.

That said, I've Solo'd CW more than probably many because I'm an introvert and don't always want to talk to people. Unless you end up on a planet with a large unit defending/attacking, it's typically skittles v skittles or maybe small groups.

Also, a final point. The small-sided "scout" CW matches that Russ recently talked about should help this immensely, because you can't very well hit a 12-man group in 4v4.

[QueenBlade]

ugh PGI, all I'm hitting are 4mans! PLEASE FIX PGI!

[ApolloKaras]

Triordinant, on 24 July 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

You can only speak for YOUR group and others like it. There will always be groups (and not just in MWO) who sync-drop because they believe it's the fastest way for them to earn profit per hour (fast games vs all-solo teams), avoid groups better than themselves (losing is not profitable) and stroke their epeens while they're at it. To top it off, the problem you mentioned about ending up on opposing teams can't happen in CW, so they CAN be successful.

Sync drop was a boogey man created by mudhutwarrior and buddies. It just gave an out for people to complain.... The sync drops didn't happen as often as you would have liked.

@OP, CW is definitely an organized section of the game. Come prepared. I mean being in a unit is not a requirement, we have in game voip now, so as long as someone takes charge and makes decent calls you'll always have a fighting chance.

@thunder child, I've never seen gitgud you all suck in chat after a win. I've played on many many 12 man teams with multiple units/pugs etc.... I've never seen this.

The problem is people don't ask questions. They run out in CW with an Atlas with 2x Lrm 15's, an AC20, 2 large lasers, and a slow engine, then complain of the rofl stomp by a more coordinated group. Some of the builds are just bad, and I'm not sure if those pilots know its bad. I was in a match I even typed in chat if anyone needed help fitting a mech or just general questions add me, they told me to die in a fire. I had no pity on stomping their mech's heads in.

Edited by Saxie, 27 July 2015 - 09:02 PM.

[Zacpod]

I played a few solo/duo CW matches last week with Ghost Bear. Generally matched up against other solos and small groups. Had a good time. Won some, lost some, but the scores were usually within 12. (e.g. final scores of 36vs48)
(that's with fully leveled and well tweaked (i) mechs, and full modules)

Then, when my contract ran out I thought "oh, I'll give Davion a try." and boy, it's way different... I haven't hit a 12-man premade, but EVERY CW match I've played as Davion has had mid-to-large groups on the red team vs mostly solos in blue. 12 solo players vs a group of 8 and a group of 4 is not fun. Scores of 2vs48 are not fun. I have yet to win a match as a Davion, and I don't think I'll drop in CW again. Obviously it's not meant for solos or pairs. I may give GhostBear another shot, but based on the attitudes I'm seeing in here i think I'll just stick with the normal drops.
(and that's with fully leveled heroes or champs, and full modules)

Maybe the notifications are the problem. Most of the drops I've done in Davion have been in response to "<planet> needs help" notifications" in the mechlab, so perhaps I should just outright ignore those and assume it's a large group looking to farm solos...

I think a split queue would be a good solution, but if that's not an option due to population size (or lack thereof) then perhaps a way to see the attacking force before accepting the battle would be a good solution.
E.g. I get a notification, I decide to go try to defend, I see that the attackers are 8 members of [unit1] and 4 members of [unit2] and decide I don't need that abuse - let some other units take that fight.
I get another notification. This time the attackers are 4 members of [unit1], a few 2-mans, and some solos. That's a little more balanced, so I join that battle.

[crustydog]

Zacpod, on 27 July 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

Then, when my contract ran out I thought "oh, I'll give Davion a try." and boy, it's way different... I have yet to win a match as a Davion,

We decided to take a month long Davion Contract a couple of weeks ago, just to drop in and collect some mech bays, etc. It is our first contract with Davion. Our unit has not been playing a lot of CW, but many of our members have been dropping CW with units who do drop CW on a daily basis.

We have been conducting lance sized drops on the Davion front, bringing our tactics, experience and coordination to the pug queues. It is often like herding cats. Even so, sometimes we are successful in our efforts and we do join up with the occasional experienced players - we have enjoyed a good 20+ victories, including some excellent battles and some defeat of 12 man units.

What I see on the Davion front is an extreme lack of Unit coordination - very little communication between Units and players... and very little knowledge of the basic strategies which lead to CW victories. Compare this to Steiner, FRR, and Kurita, where units do communicate, players are experienced, and victories are frequent. It is obvious to us that the Davions were particularly unprepared for the arrival of Clan invaders on their front lines.

CW is a pretty good game when it is played using the proven tactics and dropdecks which have worked so well on other fronts. The financial rewards for playing with this approach are adequate, and are superior to the other game modes. What the Davions lack right now is coordination, experience and leadership. The Davion pug core has proven to be just as able as any other pug forces when these ingredients are provided for them.

Getting rolled by Elite teams is part of the CW experience, just as it is in the pug queue. Even very experienced and well coordinated 12 man teams get roll stomped by the Elite teams - pugs have no chance at all - but this is not the fault of CW, it is a PGI wide phenomenon. Experienced drop commanders become adept at avoiding dropping against such units when they are on the field. On the other hand, taking in an experienced lance + 8 pugs vrs a Clan 12 pug group has proven to provide for many most intense and very close battles, and some of the very best combat to be had at PGI... if not the most skilled, certainly the most fun... and very well balanced.

[Thrudvangar]

TWIAFU, on 27 July 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Let's see...

Who should we believe? PGI with data, data they released, stating premade 12man units are 1% or you, stating that you drop against 12man premade units 100% of the time with no data?

Hmmm....

i really, really dont care about whom do you believe. My eyes dont betrayes me.

do YOU play PUG only? i dont think so.

Oh.. and premade doesnt means everybody in the enemy team needs to be in the same unit...

Are you german? Just asking...

[TWIAFU]

Thrudvangar, on 28 July 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

i really, really dont care about whom do you believe. My eyes dont betrayes me.

do YOU play PUG only? i dont think so.

Oh.. and premade doesnt means everybody in the enemy team needs to be in the same unit...

Are you german? Just asking...

So, you dont have any factual data at all then. That is what we all figured anyways.

And yet, you still claim that YOUR eyes don't betray you. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Next, you claim that I do not play PUG.

Next, you redefine PUG.

And end with some sort of veiled insult? Dunno what you are trying to go for asking my nationality - something that has nothing to do with anything. So, what you trying to say here?

So, in the end, now that we know your definition of a premade, you are upset that you, a PUG, is loosing to an enemy group of PUGs 100% of the time. Loosing against PUGs 100% of the time, be thankful you do NOT face a pre-made group. Being a PUG and facing a PUG group and loosing 100% of the time, you are not ready to face an organized team if you cannot even face an unorganized team of PUGs.

You may think your eyes have not betrayed you but your intelligence sure has.

My advice; since your a PUG playing in a group centric portion of the game, stick to the solo queue or suck it up buttercup.

[Jon Gotham]

PFC Carsten, on 19 July 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Now, that's what I call argument. Or rather lack of.

But your initial post was just as bad. Boldly stating your point of view as #1 FACT is worse by any standard of thinking.
CW has a lot of issues agreed, but pug vs premade isn't one of them as it's a self created problem-not a feature/fault of game design.
The only thing I could say about that is PGI has failed to gauge their market accurately-we seem to have a lot of "super casual" players that hate interacting with other people and only want to play solo (even when explained to that said game mode is based around teams). So I guess any fault is PGI for not understanding this, but as the game is currently designed it is down to the players 100% to engage-if you won't do that you are going to get stomped.

You could have spent the time it took to write your post actually addressing the real problems CW has rather than yet another veiled attempt at yet another solo Q in a multiplayer game mode. We already have one solo Q that's enough.