74 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

I will repeat myself, but as long as they have an unbalanced game and selling unbalanced mechs then its "pay to win".

Were the Resistance packs P2W? No. Which creates other problems. Same for hero mechs. Same for Phoenix and Founders mechs.

Anyone thinks any mech in the game matched up against Wave 1 Cheese Wolf and Cheese Crow when they were added should really take a moment and rethink that. The situation isnt as bad now, but it certainly was before.

Contrary to my tone I actually think Mechwarrior is heading in the right direction and I cant wait to see where it goes. This year will show if Mechwarrior Online is worth it or not.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 July 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Deathlike]

GRiPSViGiL, on 22 July 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Pay2Win doesn't exist in this game. It is more like pay to not have to wait.

Pay2win only occurs if I can't buy the same thing you bought with in game currency. They have yet to sell anything for real money that cannot be bought with CB.

Well, by that definition, hero mechs are that (unless you want to lose sleep over tournies that barely give you MC these days) or mechbays. While you could get mechbays through CW, more new players require a lot of time and infrastructure (a pile of mechs they can use, and trial mechs don't really count) to make it feasible for acquiring those mechbays unless they don't mind being consistent cannon fodder.

While not necessarily P2W, the NPE infrastructure is pretty bad for getting the kinds of things that is actually required to play more effectively in MWO.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 03:51 PM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well, by that definition, hero mechs are that (unless you want to lose sleep over tournies that barely give you MC these days) or mechbays. While you could get mechbays through CW, more new players require a lot of time and infrastructure (a pile of mechs they can use, and trial mechs don't really count) to make it feasible for acquiring those mechbays unless they don't mind being consistent cannon fodder.

While not necessarily P2W, the NPE infrastructure is pretty bad for getting the kinds of things that is actually required to play more effectively in MWO.

I don't think Heroes are OP enough to consider them P2W. Quirked mechs have caused more imbalance than Heroes.

[Deathlike]

GRiPSViGiL, on 22 July 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

I don't think Heroes are OP enough to consider them P2W. Quirked mechs have caused more imbalance than Heroes.

On that only beta-team tourney, Dragon Slayers and Embers were on full display (and they are still MC only).

While the mechs and meta have changed since then, you are still inviting problems by design until "non-hero" variants are made available for C-bills.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kekkone, on 22 July 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Definition of the classic black and white pay2win model.



This is where MWO hits the gray area. The cycle of the next best thing has been constant for some time now. Power creep with every new pack, that will be available for c-bills in 6 to 8 weeks. The next best thing continues to elude the f2p playerbase continuously. Combining some well timed nerfs to the next best things when they are released for c-bills, and the gray area gets a bit darker.

On the same note are consumables. Shooting up 80k worth of UAV's and strikes in every match when you average 90k means farming a timberwolf as a f2p player will take you 1500 matches. With premium time + hero mech it will take you 183 matches. So while available for c-bills, the difference is so huge that it is not feasible for a f2p player to be as well equipped in every battle as one who pays for both premium and hero.

Small problem there, my Phoenix Mechs nor my Resistance Mechs nor my Wave 2 and Wave 3 Mechs were 'the next best thing', so that rather blows that out of the water. Now my Urby Pack, THAT was something really OP, right?

Wave I was OP at first, that was clear and it's been dealt with, none of the others have repeated that mistake either. So, again, where are the facts that MWO is P2W. Your opinions aren't facts, and you've given nothing but those so far, any of you arguing that MWO is P2W.

[El Bandito]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 July 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Small problem there, my Phoenix Mechs nor my Resistance Mechs nor my Wave 2 and Wave 3 Mechs were 'the next best thing', so that rather blows that out of the water. Now my Urby Pack, THAT was something really OP, right?

Wave I was OP at first, that was clear and it's been dealt with, none of the others have repeated that mistake either. So, again, where are the facts that MWO is P2W. Your opinions aren't facts, and you've given nothing but those so far, any of you arguing that MWO is P2W.

It is more like Pay to Win before they go on C-Bills.

[Kekkone]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 July 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Small problem there, my Phoenix Mechs nor my Resistance Mechs nor my Wave 2 and Wave 3 Mechs were 'the next best thing', so that rather blows that out of the water. Now my Urby Pack, THAT was something really OP, right?

Wave I was OP at first, that was clear and it's been dealt with, none of the others have repeated that mistake either. So, again, where are the facts that MWO is P2W. Your opinions aren't facts, and you've given nothing but those so far, any of you arguing that MWO is P2W.

Allow me to expand on my post, it was late at night. The whole term "P2W" is new, used loosely and most importantly completely subjective. You have made it clear that you understand the term only to differentiate between the opposite ends of the spectrum - either something is locked behind a credit card or it has nothing to do with the term P2W.

I was trying to convey that not all people understand the term on such binaric levels, and provide reasons why. There are no "facts" on the matter. There is a gray area between black and white. Within that area, there lies each individuals own threshold to what they consider an unfair paid advantage.

And as a side note, unless the person behind Kristov is named Merriam-Webster, you don't get to dictate what the term means.

[LordBraxton]

Pay 2 Win? No. But does that make MWO's economy reasonable? No. MWO appeals to whales only, who spend $100s due to nostalgia. I know that's the only reason they get my money. If MWO played the same way, but featured similarly designed mechs from a rip-off IP..... it would have died 2 years ago. It's the BT name\license that makes all the money here, along with Alex's concept art. Outsiders will never spend $ on this, every single one of my friends thinks I am NUTS for dropping $100s on a low quality title like this.

[Davers]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 July 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

How exactly does the second option work? Is it like...

You buy premium time any you earn "X" amount more (like now), but if you win say 10 times within a specified amount of time you get a limited multiplier for your premium time?

If that's what you mean, the only downside is that PUG players often deal with an ELO system that tries to keep players at a 50/50 W/L type spread. That tampering in drops could unfairly keep PT multipliers away from you due in part to no fault of your own.

Also, if I was afraid to lose my multiplayer, I might not want to experiment with builds, grind the skill tree of new mechs, or take perceived lesser mechs like lights all because I might lose a precious multiplier for the limited time I've purchased premium time.

If I interpreted it right, I could see some downsides to that system. I like the idea of performance rewards, but the random nature of 24 PUGs in a match and the ELO meddling might make it difficult to try and earn that multiplier when you need it most.

You would get the PT bonus on a set number of wins, with no time constraints. If you bought a 30 game booster, it would last until you won 30 games no matter how long it took.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kekkone, on 23 July 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

Allow me to expand on my post, it was late at night. The whole term "P2W" is new, used loosely and most importantly completely subjective. You have made it clear that you understand the term only to differentiate between the opposite ends of the spectrum - either something is locked behind a credit card or it has nothing to do with the term P2W.

I was trying to convey that not all people understand the term on such binaric levels, and provide reasons why. There are no "facts" on the matter. There is a gray area between black and white. Within that area, there lies each individuals own threshold to what they consider an unfair paid advantage.

And as a side note, unless the person behind Kristov is named Merriam-Webster, you don't get to dictate what the term means.

I didn't define the term, it was already defined by others years ago, it's not a new concept, sorry, it's over a decade old now. And it's pretty simple and clear, it's being able to purchase, via real world cash only, items that are better than anything else you can get in the game otherwise, items that give you a clear and decisive advantage over other players, for both PvE and PvP purposes. As I said, I've played a number of F2P games that are Pay2Win, they make no bones about it, it's clear from the moment you start playing, if you want to be able to complete the PvE or even compete in PvP, here's what you have to buy from us! And that's been happening for over a decade in games from the Oriental market, which happens to have some really awesome games, even with the P2W aspect that's rather common among them.

IF you can get the items that give you a clear and decisive advantage without spending real world cash, it's not Pay2Win, it's simply a paywall at most, depending on whether the item is simply released later on for ingame coin, or it's only possible to attain ingame after extreme amounts of game enforced grinding for the item(drops or getting special things from specific mobs to get the item without real world cash).

Since MWO doesn't actually have Mechs for sale that give a clear and decisive advantage, not really even sure paywall qualifies, but that would be the most MWO has, a paywall. Hero Mechs are usually not an upgrade, they are typically less useful but come with unique geometry, camos and colors as well as a cbill boost, Heros are really just vanity items in the end, and you can get them for free by simply playing the game and earning MC through the various channels ingame that reward them.

Now, you can keep on trying to tell me what P2W means but I know the definition, again, it's been around for over a decade now, it's not a new term. People NEW to online gaming and F2P gaming may not know the term, so people like you lying to them about it doesn't help them understand what it really means. There's no gray area, it's pretty black and white, P2W means you have to spend real world money to get a real advantage in the game and that's the ONLY way to get that advantage in the game ever.

[Kekkone]

Kristov Kerensky, on 23 July 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

I didn't define the term, it was already defined by others years ago, it's not a new concept, sorry, it's over a decade old now.

Yeppers. As i said, new. Created in tandem with the f2p genre, evolving in tandem with the genre.

Quote

Now, you can keep on trying to tell me what P2W means but I know the definition, again,

What i'm trying to tell you includes the classic definition.

Quote

People NEW to online gaming and F2P gaming may not know the term, so people like you lying to them about it doesn't help them understand what it really means.

Link to people like me lying to new players on the evil PayToWinness of MWO

Quote

There's no gray area, it's pretty black and white, P2W means you have to spend real world money to get a real advantage in the game and that's the ONLY way to get that advantage in the game ever.

Strongly disagree. Consult my former post on subjectivity for more information.

[InspectorG]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 21 July 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

Economics 101.

There is an intersection between the price of a product and how many people are willing to purchase that product. That intersection represents the optimal price of the product.

PGI has determined (right or wrong) that their price point per purchases maximizes their profit based on the MWO population. If they lowered the price and sold more, they would make less money than they do now. Same is true if they raised prices and sold fewer.

Of course the market changes, so when they release on STEAM, the influx of new players may drive the price down, but for now the population and demand force a higher price.

AND...this is a niche product trying to capitalize on nostalgic 30-somethings with presumably some disposable income.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kekkone, on 23 July 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yeppers. As i said, new. Created in tandem with the f2p genre, evolving in tandem with the genre.



What i'm trying to tell you includes the classic definition.



Link to people like me lying to new players on the evil PayToWinness of MWO



Strongly disagree. Consult my former post on subjectivity for more information.

Your link makes it clear, not Pay2Win, so what exactly was the point of linking it? You tell someone it's not P2W but in this thread you make it out that it could be P2W by invoking gray areas which simply do not apply. P2W isn't subject to opinion, a game either is or is not P2W, and in order to be P2W, you must be able to get an advantage by purchasing something with real world money only, no other possible way to acquire that something, whatever it is. MWO clearly has nothing of that sort, so it's clearly not a P2W game. There is no gray area, this isn't philosophy, morality or religon, for MWO or any game, P2W either happens or it doesn't, there's no ambiguity involved.

If you don't want to spend money, don't, but don't try and invoke P2W as your reasoning, it's false and you hurt the game when you do. People interested in the game hit the forums and browse a bit and see the P2W whines and that turns them off the game OR worse, the people who WANT to P2W will spend money and really complain when they find out it isn't P2W. We've SEEN that in MWO with the Clan Mechs already, people who had fits because the Clan Mechs weren't the autowin option they'd thought they were buying and demanding refunds because of it.

I drop money on MWO because I support the ideal that PGI presented to us in 2011 and I have the money to do so. If I didn't have the money, I wouldn't, simple as that. I may not spend any more money on MWO as it's going currently, I've put a hold on MWO spending until after I see what they are doing with the rebalance work. If it's just redoing quirks, I won't spend any more money on MWO again, simple as that. I'll keep playing because it's Mechs, but that's all that will keep me around. I'm getting Elite:Dangerous, may even drop some money for SC finally, but if quirks are all the rebalance is, I won't spend another dime on this.

[Praehotec8]

The game is not P2W.

Simply buy Timberwolf or Stormcrow for CBs and win...simple as that (according to the forum crowd anyway).

[Kristov Kerensky]

Praehotec8, on 23 July 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

The game is not P2W.

Simply buy Timberwolf or Stormcrow for CBs and win...simple as that (according to the forum crowd anyway).

Bah, shows how stupid the forum crowd is, the REAL pros know you have to buy the Urby, THAT is the only autowin Mech in the game, and it's also the only Mech that can't be purchased with cbills, which PROVES it's the P2W option!

All hail the Urby!