71 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Chef Kerensky, on 07 August 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Streaks are a button you press while looking in the enemy's general cardinal direction to deal massive damage that cannot miss. They're extremely unhealthy for the game's balance.

We've been pushing for their change since.. well.. they've been here. (SSRM2)

I think the best idea was having them home, but with limited agility... (like being able to curve maybe 20 degrees total or something)

That way, they are a cut above SRMs in aim assists, without being insta-hit.

[Gas Guzzler]

Arctic Cheetah is pretty darn good. I keep having to remind myself though that dual gauss to the ST doesn't have the same effect that it does on a Firestarter.

Another thing to consider, the Cheetah is 5 tons less than an FS9, so in a comp drop with tonnage limits, 3 cheetahs instead of 3 fs6s nets you some extra tonnage, to up a Hellbringer/EBJ to a Timber Wolf at least.

[Leggin Ho]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 August 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Arctic Cheetah is pretty darn good. I keep having to remind myself though that dual gauss to the ST doesn't have the same effect that it does on a Firestarter.

Another thing to consider, the Cheetah is 5 tons less than an FS9, so in a comp drop with tonnage limits, 3 cheetahs instead of 3 fs6s nets you some extra tonnage, to up a Hellbringer/EBJ to a Timber Wolf at least.

It's Good but it also won't carry the same firepower or have the extra 5 tons for HS/armor, I think it's a pretty good light for the clans for a change and can compete with most of the IS lights now which is one thing the Clans needed.

[Gas Guzzler]

Leggin Ho, on 07 August 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's Good but it also won't carry the same firepower or have the extra 5 tons for HS/armor, I think it's a pretty good light for the clans for a change and can compete with most of the IS lights now which is one thing the Clans needed.

6 cSPL (with ECM) is the same firepower as 6 MPL, but at slightly less range, and its legs have more hitpoints than a FS9 due to quirks, so I don't know. You can also run 7 cSPL without ECM.

[Leggin Ho]

Not when you add the quirks the FS get's and if you try to run 7 cSPL you will fire twice and shut down. Once again uit's a good mech, but if it was a 35 tonner, it would be better due to more armor and the ability to add a HS or two.

Edited by Leggin Ho, 07 August 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Deathlike]

Leggin Ho, on 07 August 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's Good but it also won't carry the same firepower or have the extra 5 tons for HS/armor, I think it's a pretty good light for the clans for a change and can compete with most of the IS lights now which is one thing the Clans needed.

I think the armor is a misnomer give that it has more overall armor (through Internal Structure bonuses) in the legs than the Firestarter and then there's Clan XL.

It competes extraordinarily well with the Firestarter (it does more work for its tonnage).

Edited by Deathlike, 07 August 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[Onionbird]

As a tonnage dump (which, ultimately, the Firestarter is at the end of the day) the Cheetah is a far more effective mech. When you get an IS team down to their lights it basically means the game is over and you've won. Generally because a SSRM boat can chump IS lights with a single salvo.

Edited by Onionbird, 07 August 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Onionbird, on 07 August 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

As a tonnage dump (which, ultimately, the Firestarter is at the end of the day) the Cheetah is a far more effective mech. When you get an IS team down to their lights it basically means the game is over and you've won. Generally because a SSRM boat can chump IS lights with a single salvo.

You forget that this is balanced by the EXTREMELY high skill floor required to use streaks.

[IraqiWalker]

Prepaid Lenin, on 07 August 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

Parkinsons confirmed. If you want an aimbot there are *other legitimate options*

LOL, funny, but not the case. I want Streaks as a weapon system in the game.

Chef Kerensky, on 07 August 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Streaks are a button you press while looking in the enemy's general cardinal direction to deal massive damage that cannot miss. They're extremely unhealthy for the game's balance.

"Massive damage"? It's splashed all over the place, and can never hit a cockpit. Yes, the streak dog, and streak crow can be a problem, but I wouldn't remove the weapon system because of them. Tweak it, sure. Remove it, nope.

Leggin Ho, on 07 August 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Not when you add the quirks the FS get's and if you try to run 7 cSPL you will fire twice and shut down. Once again uit's a good mech, but if it was a 35 tonner, it would be better due to more armor and the ability to add a HS or two.

Firestarters have NO structure or armor quirks. In fact, each variant has at most 3 quirks, and they are usually crappy weapon quirks.
Don't believe me? Check Smurfy.

[Chef Kerensky]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

"Massive damage"? It's splashed all over the place, and can never hit a cockpit. Yes, the streak dog, and streak crow can be a problem, but I wouldn't remove the weapon system because of them. Tweak it, sure. Remove it, nope.

You can't stop weapon boating and you never will. It's been a part of Mechwarrior for as long as the mechlab. It will always, always be a good idea to use several weapons that complement another one in range and cooldown over several weapons that do not, hence streakboats will always exist as long as streaks do.

Streakboats are bad for the game. They make an entire class of mech even more non-viable than they were before, and frankly lights aren't such hot **** even if you disregard the existence of streaks. They exacerbate a problem that already needs solving. They really shouldn't be in the game.

I'm not really sure who looks at a gun that aims itself for you and says "this is a good idea" but it's shown up in games other than MWO and I'll never really understand why.

[Wildstreak]

Leggin Ho, on 07 August 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's Good but it also won't carry the same firepower or have the extra 5 tons for HS/armor, I think it's a pretty good light for the clans for a change and can compete with most of the IS lights now which is one thing the Clans needed.

Leggin Ho, on 07 August 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Not when you add the quirks the FS get's and if you try to run 7 cSPL you will fire twice and shut down. Once again uit's a good mech, but if it was a 35 tonner, it would be better due to more armor and the ability to add a HS or two.

Good firepower for a Cheetah is 5 cSPL or 3 cSPL and 2 cERML in the torsos for ridge humping, I have both.
Great quirks, people have not seen the best unless they are particular on where they use the B Left Arm and C Right Torso, total -7.5% Pulse. Both C arms give -10% ER Laser duration. C Right Torso will be the de facto RT when it comes out for CB.

As for health, copied from another place I posted it:

Cheetah has:
8 additional structure each arm
7 additional structure each side torso except C has zero
10 additional structure each leg except A has 15

Without these, Firestarter vs Cheetah, FS has total 6 more health in every location except head.
With quirks,
Cheetah has 4 or 9 more health per leg
Cheetah has 2 more health per arm
Cheetah has 1 or -6 more health per side torso
FS has 6 more health CT

Not a big difference.

[IraqiWalker]

Chef Kerensky, on 07 August 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

You can't stop weapon boating and you never will. It's been a part of Mechwarrior for as long as the mechlab. It will always, always be a good idea to use several weapons that complement another one in range and cooldown over several weapons that do not, hence streakboats will always exist as long as streaks do.

Streakboats are bad for the game. They make an entire class of mech even more non-viable than they were before, and frankly lights aren't such hot **** even if you disregard the existence of streaks. They exacerbate a problem that already needs solving. They really shouldn't be in the game.

I'm not really sure who looks at a gun that aims itself for you and says "this is a good idea" but it's shown up in games other than MWO and I'll never really understand why.

quoting a friend of yours "arthritis"

Also, for the record, I am not against weapon boating. I think streaks need some fixing, not removal. For example, they really shouldn't be able to do a full 180 turn, on the dime.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 August 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Eh, Streaks - much like ECM - are one of those mechanics that fall out of favor in higher level play. They have diminishing returns for players that can actually hit things without the auto-aim. The same is true for Lights in general.

See awesome MS paint graph below:

[MischiefSC]

I'm dubious there isn't a hitbox issue with a Cheetah. Not complaining here; the FS had one for a long time. So did the Spider.

Just had a match earlier today where a Cheetah powered down and my Crab put 2 AC20 rounds and 2xLPLs into his left leg and.... stripped the armor and put the internals at yellow. Later watched a firestarter firehose the legs of one with MPLs. I mean firehosed it.

It's low on the legs, below the knee. Could be a ping issue (what with servers bouncing all over) or the like but I haven't noticed it with anything else.

[Leiska]

Vlad Ward, on 07 August 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

Eh, Streaks - much like ECM - are one of those mechanics that fall out of favor in higher level play. They have diminishing returns for players that can actually hit things without the auto-aim. The same is true for Lights in general.

Streak boats see tournament play a lot more than SRM boats do. They're actually very popular when there is a low tonnage limit in place. There isn't a person alive who can dismantle lights more reliably with SRMs than SSRMS.

Edited by Leiska, 08 August 2015 - 01:01 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Leiska, on 08 August 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

Streak boats see tournament play a lot more than SRM boats do. They're actually very popular when there is a low tonnage limit in place. There isn't a person alive who can dismantle lights more reliably with SRMs than SSRMS.

You're assuming SRMs are the only weapon you can compare them to. SRMs are awful against lights.

Streaks are also easy. Just because a high level player can dismantle a light more efficiently with an IS AC or pulse lasers and still be more effective against larger targets doesn't mean people want to expend the effort.

[Leiska]

Vlad Ward, on 08 August 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

You're assuming SRMs are the only weapon you can compare them to. SRMs are awful against lights.

Streaks are also easy. Just because a high level player can dismantle a light more efficiently with an IS AC or pulse lasers and still be more effective against larger targets doesn't mean people want to expend the effort.

Doesn't change the fact that competitive players tend to find streaks to be THE BEST weapon against lights.

[Vlad Ward]

You're really missing the point.

Try looking at the graph again. You see it? Good. Now invert the Y Axis. Presto-changeo, you have a graph describing the effectiveness of Streaks as Friendly player accuracy increases.

Edit: Went ahead and made the graph



Any pilot whose personal accuracy falls into Area A will kill Lights faster with Streaks than direct-fire weapons. Any pilot whose personal accuracy falls into Area B will kill Lights faster with direct-fire weapons.

Note: The vast majority of MWO players exist somewhere in the negative X range (representing the zone wherein a player is more likely to hit a friendly Mech than a specific component on an enemy Light). It wouldn't be a real surprise to see a chunk of league players sitting in Area A.

Note 2: Even in Area B, the difference between direct-fire weaponry and streaks isn't massive, so it's also no surprise if teams who care a lot about the results of a match err on the side of caution in weapon selection.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 08 August 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Vlad Ward, on 08 August 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

Note: The vast majority of MWO players exist somewhere in the negative X range (representing the zone wherein a player is more likely to hit a friendly Mech than a specific component on an enemy Light). It wouldn't be a real surprise to see a chunk of league players sitting in Area A.

Actually, no. Just because someone does FF does not mean they suck.
A good number of FF incidents are caused by people simply not giving a ****. Been here long enough to see plenty of people openly post they would shoot an ally who somehow got in the way because they find it annoying and consider it acceptable punishment.
FF does not represent bad skill, it represents poor teamwork, selfishness and too much adrenaline.

Not yet seen a good comparison between Streaks and non-Streak SRMs of the same type. Streaks have become less used with me due to:
- ECM.
- waiting for lockon.
- longer cooldowns.
Given the same time frame, which does more damage, Streak or non-Streak missiles.

[Vlad Ward]

Wildstreak, on 08 August 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

Actually, no. Just because someone does FF does not mean they suck.
A good number of FF incidents are caused by people simply not giving a ****. Been here long enough to see plenty of people openly post they would shoot an ally who somehow got in the way because they find it annoying and consider it acceptable punishment.
FF does not represent bad skill, it represents poor teamwork, selfishness and too much adrenaline.

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