108 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

And while you are at it (informing Russ), maybe ask him why PGI always round the decimal for MASC weight up, for example, 0.1 -> 1. SSW/REMLAB rounds the decimal the standard/usual way.

[DAYLEET]

Greenjulius, on 22 July 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Are you kidding me? It's inferior to the Stormcrow in nearly all ways but jumping! Same speed, far less tonnage, less armor, worse hitboxes, worse hardpoints, etc.

Players who dominate with the Shadowcat do it IN SPITE of the Cat, not because of it.

I own the Cat, and while it's better than the Ferret, it's mediocre to above average at best. The Cheetah on the other hand... that thing is outrageously OP.

Let's not use the Crow as a scale to measure other mech.

[ASHTAR0N]

I also enjoy the MASC on the Executioner alot. But on the Shadow Cat it feels like a waste. It would be better of using an XL Engine 300.

[Twilight Fenrir]

DAYLEET, on 22 July 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Let's not use the Crow as a scale to measure other mech.

Agreed... There's a 10 ton difference between the two. And the Shadowcat so far eclipses it in maneuverability it's not even funny.

The quality of a mech is not based solely upon how many guns it can tote. Moving fast, and being nimble can be more dangerous than any weapon.

On the original topic.. Agreed, I'd like to see MASC give an even boost across the map...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 22 July 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Greenjulius, on 22 July 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

I only see the "too fast" issue happening with lights. However, the fastest mediums in the game are currently the Cicada with a XL340 running at 151.5 and the CN9-D with a XL390 running at 139kph. The Ice Ferret runs 142kph, but can't equip MASC.

The Centurion wouldn't break the 170kph limit often quoted by PGI as being "danger zone" as it would run 166.8, even with 20% boost. 18.5 like the Executioner gets would push it 164kph.

The Cicada is the only exception in the entire game. If given 18.5%, it would run 179.5kph, faster than the commando with a top engine.

Solution? Raise the weight category for MASC MK I to 20-40 tons and keep its boost at the current 10% limit. MASC MK II would be 45-50 tons, and boost AT LEAST 15%, if not 20%. No mech in that weight category can break the 170kph limit, even with a 20% boost.

Another solution? Put limits on very few mechs that could possibly equip MASC. We currently have no IS MASC mechs, so it would be easy to limit their top engines to they can never run 172kph, even with MASC.

...or easier: install a speed cap. This may seem artifical but it would solve the problem and people could still try to make their "dream" build

[Greenjulius]

DAYLEET, on 22 July 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Let's not use the Crow as a scale to measure other mech.

It's a valid comparison to show that there are much more powerful alternatives.

An 45 tonner comparison would probably be the BJ-1X, which beats the **** out of the Shadowcat. However, the subject at hand is MASC on the Cat, and why it makes absolutely no sense the way it is currently implemented.

[Joseph Mallan]

Stats common to all MASC items:
Acceleration bonus: +175% (So a Mech that walks at 54KpH could in bursts go 94.5KpH?)
Deceleration bonus: +150%
Turn rate bonus: +25%
Gauge fill rate: 10% per second
Gauge drain rate: 2% per second
Damage threshold: 75%
Is not the same as
Clan MASC

Clan MASC MK I
Slots/Tons: 1 slot, 1 ton
'Mech Tonnage Range: 20 - 25 tons
Speed bonus: +10%
Random damage range: 0.72 – 0.88
Clan MASC MK II
Slots/Tons: 2 slots, 2 tons
'Mech Tonnage Range: 30 - 50 tons
Speed bonus: +10% (Same Mech as above Goes from 54KpH to 59 KpH)
Random damage range: 1.26 – 1.54
Clan MASC MK III
Slots/Tons: 3 slots, 3 tons
'Mech Tonnage Range: 55 - 75 tons
Speed bonus: +15.5%
Random damage range: 2.34 – 2.86
Clan MASC MK IV
Slots/Tons: 4 slots, 4 tons
'Mech Tonnage Range: 80 - 100 tons
Speed bonus: +18.5% Top Speed of 64KpH
Random damage range: 3.06 – 3.74

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 July 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Bush Hopper, on 22 July 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

...or easier: install a speed cap. This may seem artifical but it would solve the problem and people could still try to make their "dream" build

There already is a speed cap in the game... IIRC there is a Comando whose top speed is impacted by it.

Greenjulius, on 22 July 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

It's a valid comparison to show that there are much more powerful alternatives.

An 45 tonner comparison would probably be the BJ-1X, which beats the **** out of the Shadowcat. However, the subject at hand is MASC on the Cat, and why it makes absolutely no sense the way it is currently implemented.

Well, I disagree on both points personally... As you say, off topic.

MASC being bumped up would definitely be appreciated. The maneuvering is what MASC is about in this game, but for escape purposes you really need that extra 10%

[ilikerice]

I know this goes against everything that you guys are discussing, but I think MASC is working perfectly.

When MASC is implemented into IS mechs the variable engine is going to make a bigger difference because you can throw the largest engine in there. (Which will lead to nerf MASC threads...)

Just a question, but for all you saying it isn't as noticeable, when are you using MASC? To catch those lights? To pop in and out of cover?

Ive found myself only using it when landing from jumps, which Ive found is AMAZING at landing almost full speed after doing a 180, it has none of the normal acceleration delay that you get when landing from a jump.

[N a p e s]

OP, looking at the numbers you're right. Something doesn't completely make sense but, having it played it last night for quite a while, I like it a lot as-is.

It's not just about increasing ground speed, at least not for a mech like the SHC which is already plenty zippy at 107 kph. I see it more as a general temporary agility buff that allows the SHC to weave in out of combat much more efficiently. You don't hold ALT to sprint around like in you typical FPS, you tap it as you land from a jump or give it a short burst before going for that big jump to clear a canyon or once again if a light is circle strafing you and you're just shy of lining up your weapons for a kill shot, tap MASC! In a more classic use, a teammate is calling for help around the corner and you need to get there quick the 10% boost is useful but if you've been holding it since the beginning of the match, you're gonna get yourself in trouble with the leg damage.

The accel/deccel and turn radius buffs are great and should be the primary focus on mechs like this. If anything maybe these parameters shouldn't be shared by all MASC classes so that PGI can more easily tweak these.

Now I seem to be in the minority here but I'm not against making it MORE useful. I just think it already is.

Edited by PowerOfNapes, 22 July 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[DONTOR]

Yep finding the MASC on the Exec, much more fun / effective. 10 KPH on a medium is a joke.

Edited by DONTOR, 22 July 2015 - 09:24 AM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Link to thread retweeted to Russ. Good points man.

[Greenjulius]

It looks like we've got a few MASC threads floating around... hopefully we can get a statement from PGI on this before it gets buried and recreated as a new post a dozen times...

[Dracol]

Hit the Deck, on 22 July 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

And while you are at it (informing Russ), maybe ask him why PGI always round the decimal for MASC weight up, for example, 0.1 -> 1. SSW/REMLAB rounds the decimal the standard/usual way.

If I recall correctly, Battletech building rules had the basic rule of always round up.

Edit: I was mistaken, MASC is rounded normally. Also, rounding is inconsistent throughout BTech. Always round up when determining run speed (first reference to rounding) and round normally for armor calculations.

Edited by Dracol, 22 July 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dracol, on 22 July 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

If I recall correctly, Battletech building rules had the basic rule of always round up.

With a few exceptions. not many though.

[Moldur]

Those are some pretty glaring flaws. I suspect something will be done to MASC in the future to make it better.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dracol, on 22 July 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

If I recall correctly, Battletech building rules had the basic rule of always round up.

If that were true, the Deimos would be undertonned when built in SSW, but it isn't. According to the TRO MASC only takes up 3 criticals as opposed to the 4 it would under MWO. In other words, SSW is correct, MWO is not.

The correct ranges:

• Clan Mark I: 20-35
  
• Clan Mark II: 40-60
  
• Clan Mark III: 65-85
  
• Clan Mark IV: 90-100
  
• IS Mark I: 20-25
  
• IS Mark II: 30-45
  
• IS Mark III: 50-65
  
• IS Mark IV: 70-85
  
• IS Mark V: 90-100

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 22 July 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Dracol]

WM Quicksilver, on 22 July 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

If that were true, the Deimos would be undertonned when built in SSW, but it isn't. According to the TRO MASC only takes up 3 criticals as opposed to the 4 it would under MWO. In other words, SSW is correct, MWO is not.

Dang, y'all are quick. Edited my original post after second guessing myself and looking up the rules. And MASC is rounded normally. Run speed, always round up. Armor, round normally. I stopped looking after that point.

[Roadkill]

You can't change tonnage or crits or it messes with canon builds.

The best solution (IMO) would be to give Mk II MASC a 12.5% speed boost. That would fit their gradual scale better anyway, and almost looks like that was what they intended but that there's a typo in the Mk II version giving it the Mk I's speed boost.

Don't underrate the value of the 175%/150% accel/decel bonuses and 25% turn rate bonus. To me, those are the real use for MASC. The speed bonus is almost irrelevant.

[levitas]

I agree with powerofnapes, masc isn't about line speed: is about cornering and acceleration.

Using those high mounts, you approach an edge at full speed, attempting a flank, but upon cresting find a tbr aimed at you? Masc and full reverse has you out of there before he can punish.

It's like ridge humping with a jagermech but leaving LoS to trade favorably feels more like a Locust when you engage masc.