108 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

WM Quicksilver, on 22 July 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Nah, it just is worded a little weird.

It does not state that your walking speed is doubled, only that you are able to move at twice its walking speed, which is correct.
It probably should be worded a little more clear to state that it pushes your top speed from 1.5x your walking speed to 2x your walking speed, but meh.

Considering how specific the walk and run speed are I would assume they were specific about what it affected but you know what assumptions do... I dont have any other information here i would take a look at that.

But if it affects Top Speed of the mech thats even better! But i see the sneakyness in that text now, double walking speed would also mean double run speed, turn, etc.

Is MASC listed anywhere as effecting Torso Twists or anything like that?

[CrushLibs]

The Scat in general just sucks and this was the most popular Med in all the past games.

Before PGI Scats went 130 kph and the Cicada does 150+ with great armor and plenty of weapons but PGI scat does 117 kph whoooopie **rolls eyes**

Ebonjag is a nice mech , but the Scat is a fail , low armor , still slow , poor weapon loadouts. Its sad without ECM & STOCK armor,, two UAC-5s leaves 3 tons of ammo and zero backup weapons. Come on PGI , one gauss + 2 meds = 2 tons of ammo wtf.

2 tons and 2 crits for a lousy 10 kph MASC and another 3 tons to JJs just makes this mech a tier 3 mech at best, i read the specs and was hoping for the best should have saved my money and just bought the EBJ and Cheetah instead of the package.

To all IS pilots enjoy **** facing the Scats and to all the CLAN pilots you can blame PGI for another fumble at the 5 yard line

Edited by CrushLibs, 22 July 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[Deathlike]

The Scat might just need MASC improvements just to offset its poor offensive options (aka limited hardpoints).

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 22 July 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Not quite right, it can be crit like any other item. As with every other item, also 10 HP.

You are right.

I think my overall point still stands though (and the gist).

The EXE will lose that ST more frequently on average than Shadowcats will manage to have open CT, get crit in MASC, lose MASC and manage to also not be dead shortly after.


It's a better location for MASC, it weighs less, it takes up less space than the EXE's version.

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Had to do a double take on what you wrote.

LOL, sorry man. Long day at work.

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

The Scat might just need MASC improvements just to offset its poor offensive options (aka limited hardpoints).

As with the other mechs in this situation, I'd simply rather they get a few more hardpoints.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 22 July 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

LOL, sorry man. Long day at work.

It's alright. I've yet to run the Arctic Cheetah, but with the 9-day event requiring 16 successful drops per day, I'll be grinding it quite a bit.

Quote

As with the other mechs in this situation, I'd simply rather they get a few more hardpoints.

Hardpoint inflation becomes a really sensitive topic when it comes to omnimechs. You are better off asking them for another "PGI variant" that isn't a totally overengineered MG-dakka overlord which doesn't happen to be a 30-tonner.

I'm more leaning towards a RT variant that simply combines the 1E and 1M hardpoint for better synergy, or 2E/2M arms. Right now the spread distribution of hardpoints only allows for an optimal 3E+2M or 2E+3M combo. I'd rather stack on more E or M and hope for the best.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[Greenjulius]

CrushLibs, on 22 July 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

The Scat in general just sucks and this was the most popular Med in all the past games.

2 tons and 2 crits for a lousy 10 kph MASC and another 3 tons to JJs just makes this mech a tier 3 mech at best, i read the specs and was hoping for the best should have saved my money and just bought the EBJ and Cheetah instead of the package.

To all IS pilots enjoy **** facing the Scats and to all the CLAN pilots you can blame PGI for another fumble at the 5 yard line

While I'm not happy with some things about the SCat, I wouldn't call it a bad mech.

Pros:

Great Maneuverability
Good Speed (not amazing though)
Amazing Jump capability
High Mounted Hardpoints
ECM

Cons:

Low podspace/tonnage available - Only 16 tons
Very few hardpoints - Only 5 unless you count the ballistic hardpoints that can really only do MGs.
Fragile - it tends to pop fast in a fight if looked at. Blackjacks have better hitboxes.
MASC MK II sucks - ~10kph temp boosts for 2 tons sucks.
Runs hot - Just in general. The podspace options usually force you into SRMs if you want to run cooler.

My primary problem is with the implementation of MASC as I explained in the OP. I can get around the other stuff with clever builds and playstyles, but MASC MK II needs to change boost to a faster speed. As it is, it's worthwhile only in specific circumstances.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

The Scat might just need MASC improvements just to offset its poor offensive options (aka limited hardpoints).

Yep. And some gauss ammo quirks.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 22 July 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yep. And some gauss ammo quirks.

I'm really fundamentally against that concept... and not because of the TT purists (I consult TT only as necessary, but not as a sheer requirement for anything in a video game to function) but these are the kinds of quirks that get really scary and funky.

I mean, such a concept was floated for the Maddog (but, that's laughable considering how low their arms are) due to the stock dual Gauss build and I'm simply not that comfortable with such a quirk. Tradeoffs in actual building need to exist (not that heat quirks for the Mist Lynx aren't needed, due to the failure of the trudub system for sub-250 mechs), but can you imagine the outcry for other weapon types that would result in that?

I'm still waiting for 120 missiles for SRMs (and indirectly Streaks), but then we'll have more debates on "we need more ammo on our dakka mechs" and... I'm just not willing to deal with that discussion.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

I'm really fundamentally against that concept... and not because of the TT purists (I consult TT only as necessary, but not as a sheer requirement for anything in a video game to function) but these are the kinds of quirks that get really scary and funky.

I mean, such a concept was floated for the Maddog (but, that's laughable considering how low their arms are) due to the stock dual Gauss build and I'm simply not that comfortable with such a quirk. Tradeoffs in actual building need to exist (not that heat quirks for the Mist Lynx aren't needed, due to the failure of the trudub system for sub-250 mechs), but can you imagine the outcry for other weapon types that would result in that?

I'm still waiting for 120 missiles for SRMs (and indirectly Streaks), but then we'll have more debates on "we need more ammo on our dakka mechs" and... I'm just not willing to deal with that discussion.

They could always make those powerful quirks restricted to 8/8 omnipods. Prevents side effects, because it's exclusive to a few (and not bad pod A going on as a shield side for good pods C).

Summoner Prime, SadCats, maybe Myth Lynxes (but honestly, who takes THOSE pods?)

[Bishop Steiner]

Sorry, but maybe because of TT, I am totally against Omnis every having super specialized Quirks... because the whole point of being an Omni is super fast swaps, Jack of All Trades, Master of None. I'm OK with moderate generic cooldown or heat gen quirks, armor and structure buffs, agility/speed, etc. But weapon specific buffs should absolutely NEVER happen to Omnis.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

I'm really fundamentally against that concept... and not because of the TT purists (I consult TT only as necessary, but not as a sheer requirement for anything in a video game to function) but these are the kinds of quirks that get really scary and funky.

I mean, such a concept was floated for the Maddog (but, that's laughable considering how low their arms are) due to the stock dual Gauss build and I'm simply not that comfortable with such a quirk. Tradeoffs in actual building need to exist (not that heat quirks for the Mist Lynx aren't needed, due to the failure of the trudub system for sub-250 mechs), but can you imagine the outcry for other weapon types that would result in that?

I'm still waiting for 120 missiles for SRMs (and indirectly Streaks), but then we'll have more debates on "we need more ammo on our dakka mechs" and... I'm just not willing to deal with that discussion.

After day 1, I don't think I've seen anyone run gauss on a Shadow Cat. 90% of the S-Cats I see are boating lasers and/or missiles. The chance of accidentally making the Shadow Cat some kind of monster is so slim that it's not worth pondering. Even with a 100% bonus to gauss ammo, I think the Grid Iron beats it every time.

I mean, it has a 50% cooldown bonus for God's sake. And the Grid Iron's 3 energy hardpoint are roughly equal to the S-Cat's 2 energy hardpoints in terms of DPS, except that the Grid Iron also gets the following energy quirks:
25% MPL bonus range
25% energy range
12.5% energy cooldown bonus
12.5% MPL cooldown bonus

I'm not saying this because the Shadow Cat needs to be buffed to match the Grid Iron. I'm just saying that even the Grid Iron, with its insane 50% bonus quirks for both gauss and MPL, isn't really overpowered. It's a good mech, but it's not earth shattering.

It's just hard to imagine anything that would make a 45-ton mech with a gauss rifle and 1-2 medium lasers overpowered. The trade-off is that you're putting such a huge weapon on such a small mech, which almost no one would do unless there was some sort of incentive. It's the equivalent of AC20 quirks on the Urbie. The trade-off is equipping the AC20 in the first place.

At the end of the day...
The Shadow Cat is one of the most iconic gauss snipers in all of Battletech, in my eyes. No one's running gauss rifles on it. It's just too hard in this game. That's a problem, and it comes down to lack of ammunition.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 22 July 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 22 July 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

They could always make those powerful quirks restricted to 8/8 omnipods. Prevents side effects, because it's exclusive to a few (and not bad pod A going on as a shield side for good pods C).

Summoner Prime, SadCats, maybe Myth Lynxes (but honestly, who takes THOSE pods?)

Perhaps, but "magical ammo increase" starts to lean towards the "magical convergence" level of ideas. I'm almost leaning towards increased damage on the Gauss Rifle instead (+5 to damage), but less of a bonus (or just removal of said bonus) as more ammo than the "stock 2 tons" are added.

I don't like my idea any more than what we have, but it is what it is.

Even just reducing or just removing the Gauss charge outright would be my preference.

Alistair Winter, on 22 July 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

After day 1, I don't think I've seen anyone run gauss on a Shadow Cat. 90% of the S-Cats I see are boating lasers and/or missiles. The chance of accidentally making the Shadow Cat some kind of monster is so slim that it's not worth pondering. Even with a 100% bonus to gauss ammo, I think the Grid Iron beats it every time.

I mean, it has a 50% cooldown bonus for God's sake. And the Grid Iron's 3 energy hardpoint are roughly equal to the S-Cat's 2 energy hardpoints in terms of DPS, except that the Grid Iron also gets the following energy quirks:
25% MPL bonus range
25% energy range
12.5% energy cooldown bonus
12.5% MPL cooldown bonus

I'm not saying this because the Shadow Cat needs to be buffed to match the Grid Iron. I'm just saying that even the Grid Iron, with its insane 50% bonus quirks for both gauss and MPL, isn't really overpowered. It's a good mech, but it's not earth shattering.

It's just hard to imagine anything that would make a 45-ton mech with a gauss rifle and 1-2 medium lasers overpowered. The trade-off is that you're putting such a huge weapon on such a small mech, which almost no one would do unless there was some sort of incentive. It's the equivalent of AC20 quirks on the Urbie. The trade-off is equipping the AC20 in the first place.

At the end of the day...
The Shadow Cat is one of the most iconic gauss snipers in all of Battletech, in my eyes. No one's running gauss rifles on it. It's just too hard in this game. That's a problem, and it comes down to lack of ammunition.

This game finally made an iconic mech a terribad one. It's sad.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Pjwned]

While MASC does have other benefits besides increasing top speed, I agree it's stupid that a bigger engine for the same amount of extra tonnage would give more speed without any of the drawbacks specific to MASC, and that should be remedied in 1 way or another.

[Top Leliel]

Alistair Winter, on 22 July 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

At the end of the day...
The Shadow Cat is one of the most iconic gauss snipers in all of Battletech, in my eyes. No one's running gauss rifles on it. It's just too hard in this game. That's a problem, and it comes down to lack of ammunition.

The Gauss Rifle requiring time to charge up was already a big nerf(they could have just given it a longer cooldown). The Gauss Rifle is nerfed, Shadowcat's speed is nerfed, and giving it more than canon ammo might be necessary if only because some mechs are tougher than canon.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

Perhaps, but "magical ammo increase" starts to lean towards the "magical convergence" level of ideas. I'm almost leaning towards increased damage on the Gauss Rifle instead (+5 to damage), but less of a bonus (or just removal of said bonus) as more ammo than the "stock 2 tons" are added.

All of the quirks are "magical", really. And the skills and the modules. There are some cases where it doesn't make any realistic sense, but you can explain extra ammo just as easy as you can explain certain weapons having more range, better rate of fire, increased projectile speed, etc.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 22 July 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

All of the quirks are "magical", really. And the skills and the modules. There are some cases where it doesn't make any realistic sense, but you can explain extra ammo just as easy as you can explain certain weapons having more range, better rate of fire, increased projectile speed, etc.

Magical ammo isn't ideal.

I'd rather buy a "limited ammo, more damage" type of deal (more damage if your ammo supply is limited due to tonnage). It would help something like the Summoner a lot, given what it has to deal with.

Either way, magical ammo gets the TT purists going.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Magical ammo isn't ideal.
I'd rather buy a "limited ammo, more damage" type of deal (more damage if your ammo supply is limited due to tonnage). It would help something like the Summoner a lot, given what it has to deal with.
Either way, magical ammo gets the TT purists going.

Why call it magical ammo? That's absurd. Some pistols have 6 bullets in their clip, other pistols have 11 bullets in their clip. They're essentially the same weapon, with completely different ammo capacity. Some firearms have better projectile speed, some firearms have better rate of fire, some firearms have better range. There's nothing magical about it. Quirks are just an abstract way of representing this without having an infinite amount of different weapons in the game, like some MMORPG.

Granted, it would have been cool to have different weapons by different manufacturers. But quirks basically have the same function.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 22 July 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

Why call it magical ammo? That's absurd. Some pistols have 6 bullets in their clip, other pistols have 11 bullets in their clip. They're essentially the same weapon, with completely different ammo capacity. Some firearms have better projectile speed, some firearms have better rate of fire, some firearms have better range. There's nothing magical about it. Quirks are just an abstract way of representing this without having an infinite amount of different weapons in the game, like some MMORPG.

Granted, it would have been cool to have different weapons by different manufacturers. But quirks basically have the same function.

I'd rather just call it "ghost ammo", because you're adding stuff that didn't exist.

If you were to implement "weapon variations", you'd still have to balance around something.

Trade lower damage for more ammo.

Trade for a longer cooldown for longer firing window.

In the case of quirks, there are generally NO TRADEOFFS and are strictly/generally buffs in the sense of the word.

IMO, the best scenario is increasing damage as long as you are limited by ammo, related to your tonnage situation.

1 ton doesn't magically become "more". It has to become "different" if it's a new weapon, which ends up having the same tonnage+crits. Otherwise, we'd just use the "optimal" weapon because it gains everything but trades nothing.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

Perhaps, but "magical ammo increase" starts to lean towards the "magical convergence" level of ideas.

There is nothing inherently more "magical" about an ammo increase than there is for any other existing quirks.

Extra velocity? Extra Range? Extra Durability?


There's nothing we can't hand wave a way with ammo. The mech is designed with specialized ammo storage, blah blah blah.

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

This game finally made an iconic mech a terribad one. It's sad.

I think "terribad" is a stretch.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 22 July 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

There is nothing inherently more "magical" about an ammo increase than there is for any other existing quirks.

Extra velocity? Extra Range? Extra Durability?


There's nothing we can't hand wave a way with ammo. The mech is designed with specialized ammo storage, blah blah blah.

For extra velocity and range, you can always claim it's part of the design of that mech (variant). If a mech excels and LRMs (say Maddog), then to see them fly faster and farther than say a Timberwolf (that doesn't need LRM buffs), then I'm fine with that. Of course, I'd rather have the Maddog fixed differently, but that's no the point.

For extra "durability", you can say that it was reinforced (despite the fact there is probably stronger armor in lore).

Ammo on the other hand, you can't just say "somehow one ton of ammo can magically clone itself to be 50% more than normal" and still manage to be 1 ton.

Then again, ammo comes from any part of the mech, through a series of tubes. I get it, but you can't magically make more stuff out of thin air. "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop" is essentially my argument.

Quote

I think "terribad" is a stretch.

Well, mediocre?

I need to play it myself, but it's behind a long list.

My increased damage suggestion is honestly the best compromise that I can come up with, w/o breaking things massively.

It's a "simple" conceptual generic-based work for mechs that naturally suffer from ammo tonnage deficiencies.

1 ton of ballistic ammo = 66.7% more damage per ton (25 dmg per shot for 1 ton of Gauss)
2 tons of ballistic ammo = 33.4% more damage per ton (20 dmg per shot for per ton of Gauss)
3 or more tons of ballistic ammo = no bonus

It can apply to all weapons (or we can make it Gauss specific, since it is a Shadowcat thing).

The numbers can change, but strictly increasing Gauss ammo straight up is honestly not the way to go. We can be more creative with this stuff... and as I said... you really don't to do straight up ammo increasing. We're just going to have more discussions with people "wanting more than 50% than TT spec ammo" (like 100%) and it's just not what I ever want to deal with.