111 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 August 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

At 10 tons more, of course the TBR is going to tank more damage. The EBJ fits the perfect 65 Ton sweetspot though for CW (which you probably do not play so it matters little to you). TBR + 2 EBJ or HBR + ACH = 235 Ton killer dropdeck.

Thought Clans can already do killer Timber + 3 x Crow combo.

[Sarlic]

FearNotDeath, on 31 July 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

I don't understand people who haven't played said mech yet know exactly how it performs and plays. Pilot a mile in its metal shoe's.

That's about saying the same thing in a Atlas compared in the Assault class.

I wreck steel faces with my Atlas. Most Assaults are better at the same job. You have these days i absolutely wreck total carnage. And then a bad streak because of missing support. The pilot behind it is also something you should consider despite the drawbacks some people are mentioning it.

I have seen Summoners doing a crazy job. I have seen Highlanders doing fine. It needs proper support to make it work. Just like the Atlas. Too many people wander on it's own with their solo que mentality thus failing the mech.

Edited by Sarlic, 01 August 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 31 July 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Once the Scat comes out for C-Bills, I'm gonna test it out myself. Cause I am still not convinced.

Sure, but you're going to be massively disappointed.

If Shadowcats with MASC were a thing (or meta), you'll see it be sustained through its usage over time (like the Timberwolf, Stormcrow, Hellbringer etc.)

What you're going to see over time is it'll be treated more like a Mist Lynx, Vindicator, Orion, or Trebuchet... things people openly say they are terrible.. and for good reason. It might not actually end up being that bad (I'm not trying to be too hyperbolic, but I am honestly struggling on the build side of things, not just the durability).

If common usage won't convince you... have fun spending the C-bills for the mech. You'll regret it soon™.

[GeistHrafn]

I honestly don't see what everyone's issue with it is. I have had consistently more fun levelling the SCat than any other mech.
Personally I think it outperforms the Nova in dual ERPPC poptarting, while not being as heat efficient or tough, the pop, land, MASC insta-accel away as soon as it touches the ground is infinitely more fun, and at least I find, more survivable.
On many occasions, I have had to shake my head because of it's ability to get out of situations that would've killed any other mech, regardless of toughness.
For example, yesterday I managed to land (accidentally) between an enemy Dire Whale and Crab. They both turned to face me and fire, but a quick MASC insta-accel, and they shot each other in the face shooting at where I was just a millisecond before. Quick (still MASC'd) turn, and leap over the crab, and I was safe from the Dire, and the Crab couldn't turn fast enough to catch me and I was gone. Heart pounding, white knuckle fun. I am in love with this mech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 01 August 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

It might not actually end up being that bad (I'm not trying to be too hyperbolic, but I am honestly struggling on the build side of things, not just the durability).

As a side note, the best builds for me have actually ended up not being laser vomit (surprise!), but actually dakka builds, whether it be the UAC10-2 ERML or UAC5-ERPPC. It just struggles with heat too much to run laser vomit effectively since you eat up too much tonnage in those C-LPLs. Just one more energy/missile hardpoint would do so much for this mech, though so would a better Mark II MASC.

Rhazien, on 01 August 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Personally I think it outperforms the Nova in dual ERPPC poptarting

Ima stop you right there, and point out it doesn't, not in the least. If you are poptarting to where MASC matters when you land, you are probably poptarting in a bad area to begin with.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 01 August 2015 - 03:39 AM.

[GeistHrafn]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 August 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

Ima stop you right there, and point out it doesn't, not in the least. If you are poptarting to where MASC matters when you land, you are probably poptarting in a bad area to begin with.

Perhaps I should rephrase. Perhaps call it "Engaged Poptarting"? I don't play it like the Nova, it's not necessary. You can mix it up relatively safely in comparison. Also, re positioning quickly enough to confuse people, finding them still training their weapons where you just tarted, but already tarting much farther down the ridge for example.

Edited by Rhazien, 01 August 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 August 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

As a side note, the best builds for me have actually ended up not being laser vomit (surprise!), but actually dakka builds, whether it be the UAC10-2 ERML or UAC5-ERPPC. It just struggles with heat too much to run laser vomit effectively since you eat up too much tonnage in those C-LPLs. Just one more energy/missile hardpoint would do so much for this mech, though so would a better Mark II MASC.

I'll have to look into trying that. I'm still experimenting.

Quote

Ima stop you right there, and point out it doesn't, not in the least. If you are poptarting to where MASC matters when you land, you are probably poptarting in a bad area to begin with.

Normally I'd favor faster mechs and engines, but as much as I think Nova's still a tad fragile, I still like it more for ERPPCs than the Scat just based on cooling alone.

The speed... even with MASC isn't really "enough" as the lack of DHS through tonnage. Like, I know if you want to snipe, you have to relocate and everything revolving around that, but it's pretty weak on the sniping-suppression front compared to the Nova straight up.

The day when something like the Nova (or essentially, a mech that is considered mediocre in general) is used to show how worse off something else is... it's not a good situation to be in.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 August 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[GeistHrafn]

Meh. Fun as hell, and putting numbers on the board for me without issue on a consistent basis. That's all I need, I'm no comp player.

[Deathlike]

Rhazien, on 01 August 2015 - 03:47 AM, said:

Meh. Fun as hell, and putting numbers on the board for me without issue on a consistent basis. That's all I need, I'm no comp player.

While I agree it's fun to a degree, it doesn't really have the appeal for the masses (and that doesn't actually mean it's meta-compliant)... it's that it's currently a niche mech in a niche system.

For instance, I'm biased to the Ice Ferret, and I think "the Fridge" is better than the Scat easily (not just because of speed). Noone considers the Fridge a meta-mech either. Usually a mech with ECM is usually "ahead of the game", but then one looks at the Mist Lynx and then "wonders" how much better it could be....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rhazien, on 01 August 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

Perhaps I should rephrase. Perhaps call it "Engaged Poptarting"? I don't play it like the Nova, it's not necessary. You can mix it up relatively safely in comparison.

Considering the heat efficiency of the 2 ERPPC Shadow Cat, I can't imagine you stay engaged for very long.

Deathlike, on 01 August 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

The speed... even with MASC isn't really "enough" as the lack of DHS through tonnage. Like, I know if you want to snipe, you have to relocate and everything revolving around that, but it's pretty weak on the sniping-suppression front compared to the Nova straight up.

Well it would be nicer if maps were more like MW4's and were less claustrophobic...but we don't have that and thus why the cooling ability is way more important. Not to mention the 15% velocity quirks can be really nice.

[GeistHrafn]

Deathlike, on 01 August 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

While I agree it's fun to a degree, it doesn't really have the appeal for the masses (and that doesn't actually mean it's meta-compliant)... it's that it's currently a niche mech in a niche system.

For instance, I'm biased to the Ice Ferret, and I think "the Fridge" is better than the Scat easily (not just because of speed). Noone considers the Fridge a meta-mech either. Usually a mech with ECM is usually "ahead of the game", but then one looks at the Mist Lynx and then "wonders" how much better it could be....

Agreed. I like the Fridge too. I was in no-way implying that the SCat was a "meta" mech. But at the same time, it certainly doesn't deserve 3 separate "hate on the SCat" threads. And given the hard-point, speed, etc information was all pre-released, I don't understand how the meta min-max crowd is surprised that it's not another Timby...

[GeistHrafn]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 August 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

Considering the heat efficiency of the 2 ERPPC Shadow Cat, I can't imagine you stay engaged for very long.

Nope. But there isn't a need to. It's not a frontline mech with it's fragility. Fringe harassing, quick re positions, and splitting attention so the brawlers can close to do their work is it's bread and butter in that build. And it's really good at it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rhazien, on 01 August 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

But at the same time, it certainly doesn't deserve 3 separate "hate on the SCat" threads.

The Fridge/S*** Lynx would've gotten it too if it were as famous as the Shadow Cat. Somewhat unfair, but it was bound to happen.

[C E Dwyer]

W A R K H A N, on 31 July 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Maybe it's just me as I've never really got far into the laser vomit meta play. Or because I pilot novas instead of stormcrows, but I really like the shadowcat. My favorite poker / harasser by a long shot. My main shadow cat is at a 5-1 kdr after 50 matches played in it...not seeing how this mech is useless Maybe people are trying to force it into a role it's not meant for?

Because people wanted it to be an auto win medium, like the Timberwolf, and its not.
Because people wanted the fire power of a Blackjack and ECM

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rhazien, on 01 August 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

And it's really good at it.

That's where we disagree, at least the dual ERPPC variant. It IS the job of the Shadow Cat, but compared to the Nova and Ice Ferret it just falls short at that role, which is a little sad considering that makes it the worst Clan medium.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 01 August 2015 - 04:02 AM.

[Deathlike]

Rhazien, on 01 August 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

Agreed. I like the Fridge too. I was in no-way implying that the SCat was a "meta" mech. But at the same time, it certainly doesn't deserve 3 separate "hate on the SCat" threads. And given the hard-point, speed, etc information was all pre-released, I don't understand how the meta min-max crowd is surprised that it's not another Timby...

While I'm "technically" part of that crowd, I knew what I was getting into.

I think to some degree, there's a level of nostalgia of the Scat that got chewed up from the realities of the mech. Such an iconic mech that was used in MW3 and MW4 "ended up looking like this?!?!" is kind of the actual reaction and reality.

So, it's unsurprising actually. This might just happen with the Resistance Wave 2 mechs with the Mauler and Black Knight... which are iconic just as well, but will likely serve as reminders of the situation at hand.

[Nightshade24]

TELEFORCE, on 31 July 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

I'm just wondering. Do those who like the Shadow Cat also enjoy the Summoner? I really enjoy both. What they both have in common is that the hard points force you to do more with less, plus they both have the advantage of better maneuverability than 'mechs in the same weight class. That comes at a cost of pod space, yet the Shadow Cat has more stock pod space than a Nova (though the Nova isn't as optimized as the Shadow Cat).

I enjoy the shadowcat but the summoner is questionable... I do like taking the stock prime out for a spin and do very good with it for very random reasons. Rather that be skill or luck I manage to pull that thing off. however I do not do that much better in it then I do in my other mechs.

Shadowcat? It feels like any and every game is a good game. Even the stock Shadowcat P gets me 300+ damage games often with the ammo limited 6 machine guns and gauss rifle.

I actually have a bit of the problem with the shadowcat and run all of them nearly exclusively stock... this includes the BAP on the prime and such. It's just a mix of nostelgia and the fact I like stock+ to begin with and luckily most clan mechs allow me to completely go stock.

I am planning for builds on my prime to eventually do a UAC 10 + ER large laser- a mimic of Marcus Wilders mech from MW4: mercs that he used in Solaris VII medium mech circuit.

I am also planning on running one with a singular large laser, and that's all I thought so far- rest of the options range from SSRM's, LRM's, MG's, UAC 2'/ 5's, or Medium pulse lasers (/mix of those). just a vague imitation of the stock shadowcat from MW4...

Excluding anything related to stock, I have been thinking about duel large pulse laser shadowcats as well as LRM shadowcats, both seem to be viable as well as streak boats... It is also pretty good at pop tarting. Pretty high hardpoints too..

Not to mention ECM is able (even though I use it only on the LRM one due to stock)

I mean this kinda is my prime example of how darn silly the meta is!

Meta typically is... (specifically for clans which is just in general estimation but more refined for clan terms)

1) high hardpoints of B or E types.
2) can use large pulse lasers and/or er medium lasers
3) not slow
4) jumpjets are nice
5) can use gauss rifle
6) ECM
7) can boat streaks and go fast

that is approximately it in no order... let's look at the shadowcat...

1) has 2 very high hardpoints and relatively high hardpoints-s. the MG arm has 3B relatively high but MG isn't meta.
2) can use duel large pulse lasers and a er medium lasers with ECM, dealing 33 damage pinpoint with decent heat efficiency and it being a 45 tonner, that's decent... especially for JJ and speed.
3) is one of the faster mechs in game, without masc it's still pretty fast...
4) 6 jumpjets making it jump high enough to even pop tart.
5) the stock on 2 variants use gauss rifle. the prime more closer to a 'meta', also uses 2 er mediums. As usual, the "meta mech" has the meta build for stock (Shadowcat prime, stormcrow prime, etc)
6) ECM eeyup, trade off is 3B hardpoints
7) can boat 3 SSRM 6's and can jump as high as most IS lights and can out accelerate ALL is lights as well as out gun them and catch up to most of them if piloting skill is higher then theres (as an cutting corners and not doing zig zags and all sort of things that close the gap)
SHC-QQ


On paper, this looks like the perfect meta mech, right? nope...

"can't fit enough blarghbla bla blarghs! it doesn't have armour of a direwolf and it may be better then most IS mechs 20 to 50 tons but I can't 1v1 an enemy atlas in an eye staring contest without my mountain due"...

Well that is a corruption statement of some frustrations I got with the meta and a mixture of what some people say about some mechs...

I find it very very very odd... it does a lot of things good, It does what many mechs wish to do, and instead people do not consider it T1, maybe not even T2... That boggles my mind, it even has ECM. It can do anything a raven 3L can do and is in the meta perspective superior to the cicada or what ever...

Reminds me the same way that when I said PGI should add the couldron born meta players complained about the hardpoints and such that it isn't high enough or something like that-which is stupid as this thing has practically all of it high...





personally, I am having a blast, and I am happy the ever changing and confussing meta says this thing is ****, because that means this thing may be one of those luckly mechs to have a small shred of what clan quirks should be instead of getting the oppasite like the timberwolf (which gives you nerfs for equiping even things like the flamer... tag... small laser... ER PPC's...) and such...

[o0Marduk0o]

Moldur, on 31 July 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

Because it has no guns and a MASC unit that conveys a subjectively worse speed boost compared to a heavier engine for the same tonnage.

The heavier engine has a higher permanent speed gain, but the masc advantage here is not speed. It excels at peeking over ridges, given the high mounted hardpoints.

[Spr1ggan]

Rogue Jedi, on 31 July 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

the reasons people do not like the shadow cat are:

it has enough fixed jumpjets that it can realy jump, so it disproves the "hoverjet" theory

it cannot have more than *3* energy hardpoints.

unless you like Machine Guns you have a rather restricted number of weapons

MASC does not make it as fast as it should (my only complaint)

it is not quite as versatile as the Stormcrow.

Fixed that for you.

[Vxheous]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Thought Clans can already do killer Timber + 3 x Crow combo.

Gives variety.