107 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

So the 25% increased ammo for 100% armor has irritated me for a while, but now it hits me on a personal level. My Shadow Cat.

The SHC cannot change engines or MASC, or JJs, and cannot mount more than a couple tons of ammo for a Gauss Rifle. (Which is the prime variant, and strangely, PGI's P variant.)

In Battletech, that would be fine, as a couple of tons of GR ammo could do serious damage to normal armor values, but here we have double'd the armor (for a good reason) yet we only have 25% increased ammo on Ballistics. (Lasers do not matter as they have unlimited ammo) Missiles have between 0% and 50% increased ammo.

Why not make all ammo increased 100%? It is not as though this is a new idea, but it's more critical for me now, as my favorite mech is pretty much reduced to laser vomit, and not even a Lore build.

[xWiredx]

Why not? Because it really isn't necessary in 12 v 12 deathmatch. Everybody already dies just fine and most people don't have the time to use all the ammo they're taking unless its gauss or AC20 (which, with the limited amount of ammo but large amount of damage, makes sense).

[Ascaloth]

Moar ammo per ton = moar free tonnage for weapons = moar weapons = moar alpha = less time to kill.

If the problem is the laser, then solve the laser.

[Lugh]

I advocated that a lot way back in closed beta. The fear of ballistics (despite the weight restrictions and limits of ammo) will make your min max laser vomit / ppc vomit advocates hemorrhage their brains while they shudder at more Gauss vomit.

[CDLord HHGD]

Could have sworn it was a 50% increase. AC20 went from 5 to 7 (half rounded down).

I'm torn here. While I would like to see more ammo for my AC20's, I really don't want to see the dakka-vomit builds get more ammo. See a 3x-6x ballistic build doing nothing but dakka is annoying. IMO better to let those pilots run out of ammo.

[Joseph Mallan]

It is very rare I run out of Ammo for my AC20 or 3xSRM6. In fact I rarely run out of ammo period.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I wouldn't mind seeing changes to base ammo per ton. And if we doubled from original values, that would likely work best and could be about a ~50% increase on average from current values.

Currently:
AC/2 got 167% increase - 150 damage per ton
U/AC/5, AC/10, LB 10 and LRMs got 150% - 150 damage per ton for the ballistics, and 180 for LRMs
AC/20 got 140% increase - 140 damage per ton
Gauss got 125% increase - 150 damage per ton
MG's got 50% decrease -160 damage per ton
SRMs saw no change - at 200 damage per ton

---

Thinking about Lights, the 30 tons and below would be the mechs would gain a needed benefit due to tonnage limits on them.

And it would obviously aid every other ammo dependent build too.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 27 July 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

its the challenge. build the mechs so, that even if you kill 4 mechs alone, you still have some ammo to fire next one.....

[Livewyr]

xWiredx, on 27 July 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

Why not? Because it really isn't necessary in 12 v 12 deathmatch. Everybody already dies just fine and most people don't have the time to use all the ammo they're taking unless its gauss or AC20 (which, with the limited amount of ammo but large amount of damage, makes sense).

in 12 v 12, we've managed to work with it, but you cannot bring a mech with enough ammo for 12v12 to community warfare, and expect to excel.

IS Mechs don't really have that problem because if they don't have the ammo, they can drop their engine down and increase the ammo. (Clans do not have such luxury, and thus the only ballistic builds you see generally revolve around the DWF, who has no choice but to have the tonnage for it)

Ascaloth, on 27 July 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

Moar ammo per ton = moar free tonnage for weapons = moar weapons = moar alpha = less time to kill.

If the problem is the laser, then solve the laser.

Not going to lie- I read this as: "Oh Your Shadow Cat can still use lasers? Let's solve that."

Lasers themselves are not the problem, the problem is that lasers are often the only viable solution to crap clan ballistics. (Recent improvements to clan ballistics somewhat solved that issue, except the ammo- longevity -issue is still there. Thus the only effective shadowcat that can stay in a fight.. is a laser vomit shadow cat.)

I made a shadowcat last night with a Guass Rifle and 2 ML... in order to do it, I had to trim off 35% of my mech's armor and could still only manage 3 tons of ammo.. which ran out in short order.

Lugh, on 27 July 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

I advocated that a lot way back in closed beta. The fear of ballistics (despite the weight restrictions and limits of ammo) will make your min max laser vomit / ppc vomit advocates hemorrhage their brains while they shudder at more Gauss vomit.

Yeah, not a new idea... just more pressing with completely restricted chassis.

cdlord, on 27 July 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

Could have sworn it was a 50% increase. AC20 went from 5 to 7 (half rounded down).

I'm torn here. While I would like to see more ammo for my AC20's, I really don't want to see the dakka-vomit builds get more ammo. See a 3x-6x ballistic build doing nothing but dakka is annoying. IMO better to let those pilots run out of ammo.

The DakkaWolf is an issue that can be solved other ways... (I personally don't run it as I find it less effective)

Adding a spread when firing so many ACs... Heat Scale, whatever...

The DakkaWolf is the only clan mech that can boat Ballistics. (IS mechs have a few...)

Joseph Mallan, on 27 July 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

It is very rare I run out of Ammo for my AC20 or 3xSRM6. In fact I rarely run out of ammo period.

Funny thing.. right after I posted this I went into a match with my Shadowcat (running ERPPC and 2xML) and I won the game because the last in the 3v1 it ended up being, the only threat was the Firestarter (which died first)

The Summoner had to bail because all he had were C-SSRMs... and no ammo..
The Centurion ran out of AC20 ammo before he even found me, and he ran out of SRM ammo trying to fight me and my double armor values.

They lost 2v1 because they had no ammo.

Titannium, on 27 July 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

its the challenge. build the mechs so, that even if you kill 4 mechs alone, you still have some ammo to fire next one.....

Well.. Natasha Kerensky didn't get fame by fighting one mech per engagement...

(And also, none of the mechs she went after had effectively double their weight in armor.)

[Tastian]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

So the 25% increased ammo for 100% armor has irritated me for a while

Consider too that in TT you have to roll for hit location; sure you have more ammo per armor in TT, but you aren't getting the same precision that MWO has - that Gauss ammo may be wasted on those armored legs or arms. In MWO, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a torso (L,R,C) if that's what you are aiming at (or a leg hit if that's your thing).

Also, who says that base loadouts are even good? I'd rather have a single ERPPC (with 10 DHS), then a single Gauss or you are kind of wasting those DHS.

[Paigan]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

[...]
Gauss Rifle. (Which is the prime variant, and strangely, PGI's P variant.)
[...]

Just for the record:
https://mwomercs.com/wavethree#mech2
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=296&l=stock
To (badly) translate a German saying: "Being able to read is clearly an advantage"

As for the particular problem with the SHC (PRIME), you can alway optimize the stock loadout.
Like this for example:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1931c9d1f52596d
If you delivered those 450 damage plus the damage from the 2xERML, you should have nothing to worry about.

Edited by Paigan, 27 July 2015 - 05:31 AM.

[Shad0wsFury]

Due to the balance issues inherent to MWO being a video game, a lot of things don't translate well from tabletop. The Shadowcat is a prime example taken to the extreme because of the extra limitations put on clan mechs in MWO.

In tabletop, something like a small laser (or er small or small pulse) "boat" is kind of a joke. Sure, in the right circumstances it could work, but it probably wouldn't be all that effective. Totally different story in MWO. Small laser boats are a common build, relatively deadly, and used to great effect by the clans, especially, with their extra laser range (and the ability to do damage outside of what would be a weapon's MAX range under standard tabletop rules).

Not every tabletop mech is going to translate well into MWO, it's just a sad fact. My beloved Summoner, with it's nerfed ER-PPC and charge-up style gauss rifle, in arms that are way too easily blown off, with it's fixed jump jets and sub-optimal ferro-fibrous armor, is simply not a good mech in MWO, but a total beast in tabletop.

My suggestion (and I make this as a tabletop lover myself) is to keep the lore builds for "fun" drops (or find a group who will do lore-only private matches), but use MWO-centric builds as your primary builds on mechs. Maybe try an AC/10 or something instead of the gauss on the Shadowcat, for example, or go with something totally non-lore like artemis SRMs or slap a couple large pulse lasers on it. Remember, MWO ECM acts as a null sig in tabletop, a huge advantage, that you essentially get for free due to MWO ECM mechanics.

[CDLord HHGD]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

The DakkaWolf is an issue that can be solved other ways... (I personally don't run it as I find it less effective)

Adding a spread when firing so many ACs... Heat Scale, whatever...

The DakkaWolf is the only clan mech that can boat Ballistics. (IS mechs have a few...)

Oh, I've seen summoners and hellbringers boating 3x ballistics, the Executioner too.... Banshee, Phract, Jager (to a lesser extent, it is this chassis' job at least). But mainly the DWF and TBR. You are absolutely right though, there are other things that can be done. But until PGI does them, I cannot fully support double ammo, no matter how much it would benefit my non-meta builds.

[El Bandito]

I usually run out of ammo in my DD or 6R, even though I pack NINE tons of it. And unlike the easy-mode lasers, I cannot afford to take careless shots with them at long ranges. The 100% ammo increase is way overdue, instead of the 50% we have now. At least 75% would be fine.

Energy weapons got heat reduction quirks, but there is no ammo boost quirk for ballistics..

Edited by El Bandito, 27 July 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[Livewyr]

Paigan, on 27 July 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just for the record:
https://mwomercs.com/wavethree#mech2
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=296&l=stock
To (badly) translate a German saying: "Being able to read is clearly an advantage"

As for the particular problem with the SHC (PRIME), you can alway optimize the stock loadout.
Like this for example:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1931c9d1f52596d
If you delivered those 450 damage plus the damage from the 2xERML, you should have nothing to worry about.

Read post #9 while I try to understand why you brought up reading as an advantage...

Shad0wsFury, on 27 July 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

Due to the balance issues inherent to MWO being a video game, a lot of things don't translate well from tabletop. The Shadowcat is a prime example taken to the extreme because of the extra limitations put on clan mechs in MWO.

In tabletop, something like a small laser (or er small or small pulse) "boat" is kind of a joke. Sure, in the right circumstances it could work, but it probably wouldn't be all that effective. Totally different story in MWO. Small laser boats are a common build, relatively deadly, and used to great effect by the clans, especially, with their extra laser range (and the ability to do damage outside of what would be a weapon's MAX range under standard tabletop rules).

Not every tabletop mech is going to translate well into MWO, it's just a sad fact. My beloved Summoner, with it's nerfed ER-PPC and charge-up style gauss rifle, in arms that are way too easily blown off, with it's fixed jump jets and sub-optimal ferro-fibrous armor, is simply not a good mech in MWO, but a total beast in tabletop.

My suggestion (and I make this as a tabletop lover myself) is to keep the lore builds for "fun" drops (or find a group who will do lore-only private matches), but use MWO-centric builds as your primary builds on mechs. Maybe try an AC/10 or something instead of the gauss on the Shadowcat, for example, or go with something totally non-lore like artemis SRMs or slap a couple large pulse lasers on it. Remember, MWO ECM acts as a null sig in tabletop, a huge advantage, that you essentially get for free due to MWO ECM mechanics.

I know TT does not translate here, however- the issue that I am primarily raising is that the Shadowcat is only viable(ish) due to energy.

Ballistics do not have longevity (which is a problem unless one prefers to kamikaze in short order)
Missiles are still not viable.

(The reason I brought up the Prime and especially the P.. is because for some reason PGI thought it would be a good idea to create a unviable variant for their game...)

---------------
But let's back away from the specificity of the Shadow Cat for a moment and look at the logical reason why Lasers are the most prevalent weapon in the game.

They have longevity. That longevity became even more important when the armor values were doubled. TTK went up, but the ammo dependent weapons were not given equal staying power. (Staying power and TTK are not the same thing, but closely related.)

cdlord, on 27 July 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

Oh, I've seen summoners and hellbringers boating 3x ballistics, the Executioner too.... Banshee, Phract, Jager (to a lesser extent, it is this chassis' job at least). But mainly the DWF and TBR. You are absolutely right though, there are other things that can be done. But until PGI does them, I cannot fully support double ammo, no matter how much it would benefit my non-meta builds.

Not going to lie, I'm curious how mechs with roughly 21-25 tons of pod space were boating 3 ballistic weapons.

Back to topic though; those are a half dozen of over 100 mechs, and lasers will reign supreme over all mechs until the longevity issue is dealt with.

Edited by Livewyr, 27 July 2015 - 06:00 AM.

[Appogee]

... and then the call will go out to double armor again.

... and then the call will go out to double the ammo again.

... and then the call will go out to double armor again.

... and then the call will go out to double the ammo again.

Etc.

El Bandito, on 27 July 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

I usually run out of ammo in my DD or 6R, even though I pack NINE tons of it. And unlike the easy-mode lasers, I cannot afford to take careless shots with them at long ranges. The 100% ammo increase is way overdue, instead of the 50% we have now. At least 75% would be fine.

Ah, so the 'easy mode' laser guy El Bandito wants double his dakka at no penalty...?

[CDLord HHGD]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not going to lie, I'm curious how mechs with roughly 21-25 tons of pod space were boating 3 ballistic weapons.

Oh, it's varying degrees of annoyance, to be sure. The DWF being the main offender, but it does not stand alone. You also have to consider I am one of those evil TT purists who'd rather see sized hardpoints or an enforced stock mode over this era of meta-vomit. I have an Executioner running 3x LBX2's + lasers and it does quite well, too well in fact ....

[KHETTI]

I'm okay with Ballistic ammo being doubled, as long as energy weapon heat is also doubled.

[Livewyr]

Appogee, on 27 July 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

... and then the call will go out to double armor again.

... and then the call will go out to double the ammo again.

... and then the call will go out to double armor again.

... and then the call will go out to double the ammo again.

Etc.

Why exactly? Doubling the ammo does not increase the TTK...

cdlord, on 27 July 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

Oh, it's varying degrees of annoyance, to be sure. The DWF being the main offender, but it does not stand alone. You also have to consider I am one of those evil TT purists who'd rather see sized hardpoints or an enforced stock mode over this era of meta-vomit. I have an Executioner running 3x LBX2's + lasers and it does quite well, too well in fact ....

lol, I'm a TT purist to a point.

KHETTI, on 27 July 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

I'm okay with Ballistic ammo being doubled, as long as energy weapon heat is also doubled.

Why?

[Yosharian]

Why do you go straight to double?

Balancing is best done in small increments, with enough time between adjustments to test the effects.

A more sensible suggestion would be to increase ammo counts by 10-15% and see where that gets us. I would be broadly in favour of that.