107 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

If i'd get twice the ammo per ton i'd just put half as much tons of ammo on my mechs. Then i'll slap even more DHS or backup weapons on them to increase the maximum possible DPS even further.

Edited by meteorol, 27 July 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Livewyr]

Khobai, on 27 July 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Of course theyre still inferior. But I believe theyre competitive given all the other advantages clan mechs have. My brawling timberwolf with UAC/20 and CERML routinely tops the damage charts.

I definitely think nerfing the long range meta and seeing where the chips fall would be entirely beneficial.

Being able to top damage charts doesn't mean that much. UAC20 definitely out DPSs the AC20, but the AC20 kills far more effective.

Brawling for clans would be viable if the IS got multi-projectile ballistics as well.

Khobai, on 27 July 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

without the long-range meta there is no need to quirk IS mechs as heavily. more brawling fixes that problem too.

almost every balance problem in the game would get resolved by bringing back brawling.

Brawling is broken as long as single projectile ACs exist. (Gauss has the problem of being a fragile explosive..)

Khobai, on 27 July 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Well to be fair the AC2 sucks pretty bad anyway. I could probably support increasing the ammo per ton on the AC2 because the base tonnage cost of the AC2 is so out-of-whack to begin with. 6 tons for such a crap gun is ridiculous. halve the heat on the AC2 and double the ammo per ton, it might be okayish then.

CGauss doesnt need a buff though. Its already way better than its IS counterpart.

It's not just buffing the C- GR.. it buffs both, to be on par with the armor they must deal with.

MechWarrior5152251, on 27 July 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Best argument for leaving ammo the way it is is because it helps elite skill players slaughter the lower skill players. In Table Top a single mech could never kill 5+ enemy mechs, but in MWO it is common for skilled players to kill 5+ mechs solo. Running out of ammo means they can only do this with "Lazzors".

Correct, no build diversity, just instant pp damage.

meteorol, on 27 July 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

If i'd get twice the ammo per ton i'd just put half as much tons of ammo on my mechs. Then i'll slap even more DHS or backup weapons on them to increase the maximum possible DPS even further.

You'd only get about 15-60% more ammo depending on the weapon.

[The Mech behind you]

Who needs backup weapons if he can have all the ammo. Let's dumb down MWO!

Actually from which department does this call for more ammo come? Ballistics or Missiles?
If Ballistics: There's enough ammo/ton here. No need to spray it over the place. Fire when you really aiming at a target.
If Missiles: SRM has absolutely enough ammo/ton. LRMs are critical but actually still enough if you use LRMs clever. You can be effective with less then 1000 missiles and a couple of backup weapons. No need to take 3000 missiles and launching them at any dorito that pops up ...at 800m and beyond, or behind a hill or building, or while the lurm boater stays back in cover and launching them over half of the map without even knowing if the missiles have a chance to hit.

[Revis Volek]

You double one ton of gauss by adding another ton....


Where does this magical, free, no weight gauss ammo go in the mech? How are you going to explain how one mech can take 30 rounds and it counts as a ton where other mechs can only take 15 and count as a ton?

1 ton of ammo is 1 ton of ammo.....Do you go to the store and asked that you get 14 eggs in your dozen because you need to make a bigger omelet? 12 eggs is UP.....

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 July 2015 - 08:14 AM.

[Livewyr]

DarthRevis, on 27 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

You double one ton of gauss by adding another ton....


Where does this magical, free, no weight gauss ammo go in the mech? How are you going to explain how one mech can take 30 rounds and it counts as a ton where other mechs can only take 15 and count as a ton?

1 ton of ammo is 1 ton of ammo.....Do you go to the store and asked that you get 14 eggs in your dozen because you need to make a bigger omelet? 12 eggs is UP.....

From the same magical portal is the 2 tons of armor per ton.

(and where are you getting double ballistic ammo on one, but not the other? I'm talking about Double ballistic and Missile ammoacross the board.)

[Yellonet]

I'd say that amount of ammo is well balanced. I can generally fit ammo so that it will be just enough, but if I want to have extra ammo I will have to sacrifice some armour or heatsink or other important bit.

I'd be more inclined to lower amount of ammo to get less spam builds, while at the same time lowering damage or increasing heat from lasers (thus making ballistics as good as lasers). This would increase TTK and make precise aiming and less spamming much more important.

[Revis Volek]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

From the same magical portal is the 2 tons of armor per ton.

(and where are you getting double ballistic ammo on one, but not the other? I'm talking about Double ballistic and Missile ammoacross the board.)

Which is a even worse idea....

So because ONE MECH cant have enough Gauss ammo for people who are bad shots you think EVERY SINGLE MECH IN THE GAME should get a increase?

How many times have we said Blanket Nerfs and Buffs are a BAD IDEA.


Some people...


So lrms with 300 missles per ton?

SRMs with 200 per ton?

You realzie i would be able to bring ONE ton of ammo on most fo my brawl mechs and be just fine if you did this. Which means more DHS on my timbys and crows, more weapons, TC in mechs i skimped on them cuz of tonnage room for BAP, etc etc.


This makes all mechs stronger and will still leave you poor little SHC in the dust. Understand what you are purposing before you do so...If you raise the bar of all mechs then your problem mech is still in the same relative spot to the rest. If everyone get Gauss ammo increase then the SHC will still be the red headed step child of the bunch with not as much.

What does this fix?

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 July 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Yellonet]

DarthRevis, on 27 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Where does this magical, free, no weight gauss ammo go in the mech? How are you going to explain how one mech can take 30 rounds and it counts as a ton where other mechs can only take 15 and count as a ton?

I'm sure that must be possible on a clan mech!

[Livewyr]

DarthRevis, on 27 July 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which is a even worse idea....

So because ONE MECH cant have enough Gauss ammo for people who are bad shots you think EVERY SINGLE MECH IN THE GAME should get a increase?

How many times have we said Blanket Nerfs and Buffs are a BAD IDEA.


Some people...


So lrms with 300 missles per ton?

SRMs with 200 per ton?

You realzie i would be able to bring ONE ton of ammo on most fo my brawl mechs and be just fine if you did this. Which means more DHS on my timbys and crows, more weapons, TC in mechs i skimped on them cuz of tonnage room for BAP, etc etc.


This makes all mechs stronger and will still leave you poor little SHC in the dust. Understand what you are purposing before you do so...If you raise the bar of all mechs then your problem mech is still in the same relative spot to the rest. If everyone get Gauss ammo increase then the SHC will still be the red headed step child of the bunch with not as much.

What does this fix?

Try reading the thread. 7 AC20 rounds becomes 10, not 14.

[process]

In general ammo is fine. When you do the math, the damage potential is quite high, especially when complemented with other armament. It would probably help peoples' perception of weapon performance if we knew exactly which weapon was contributing how much damage at the end of each round.

4 tons AC20 = 560 damage
3 tons AC5 = 450 damage
3 tons Gauss = 450 damage
etc.

I do think there are certain mechs that are overly constrained to viably carry the ammo-dependent weapons they are intended to. Shadow Cat Prime is a good example: 16 tons of pod space without min/maxing armor. Putting a Gauss on there leaves you with 4 tons for ammo or backup weapons, which is a pretty miserable choice. I don't think it's unreasonable in these very few cases to apply modest ammo quirks. Even a 25% increase would go a long way to making, for instance, Gauss + 2 medium laser more viable.

DarthRevis, on 27 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Where does this magical, free, no weight gauss ammo go in the mech? How are you going to explain how one mech can take 30 rounds and it counts as a ton where other mechs can only take 15 and count as a ton?

Probably the same place quirked structure and armor go.

Edited by process, 27 July 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Try reading the thread. 7 AC20 rounds becomes 10, not 14.

...and the Yen lo Wang gets stronger (which doesn't need it) really any IS mech that mounts a 20 get a buff....so what did this do for the SHC? Gave you a few more shots of ammo while others still out gun you. How much MORE ammo you want to give out for free to all mechs is pointless. The THING you seem to misunderstand is this is a blanket buff and WILL NOT make the SHC any better in relation to the other mechs in its class or even all the classes in this game.

Its still in the same spot in relation to the other mechs we just moved all mechs up and didn't do anything but lower TTK for everyone.

I'm really just at a loss to figure out WHY or WHAT this will fix.

process, on 27 July 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

Probably the same place quirked structure and armor go.

I'm sure...even though the quirked variant with extra armor or Structure can mount the same amount of weapons that one which does not can.

Right, making a little more ammo on one (the SHC in this situation) mech WILL buff it, but at the same time then we run into the issue of how does one mech carry more in a ton then another.

MAGIC!

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 July 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Yellonet]

process, on 27 July 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

In general ammo is fine. When you do the math, the damage potential is quite high, especially when complemented with other armament. It would probably help peoples' perception of weapon performance if we knew exactly which weapon was contributing how much damage at the end of each round.

4 tons AC20 = 560 damage
3 tons AC5 = 450 damage
3 tons Gauss = 450 damage
etc.

I do think there are certain mechs that are overly constrained to viably carry the ammo-dependent weapons they are intended to. Shadow Cat Prime is a good example: 16 tons of pod space without min/maxing armor. Putting a Gauss on there leaves you with 4 tons for ammo or backup weapons, which is a pretty miserable choice. I don't think it's unreasonable in these very few cases to apply modest ammo quirks. Even a 25% increase would go a long way to making, for instance, Gauss + 2 medium laser more viable.

Are there really any other 45 ton mech that can field a GG with plenty of ammo + secondary weapons (while still having decent engine + armour)? Besides, mechs should be compromises, if there's a mech where you do not have to compromise it would be too OP, even for a clan mech.

process, on 27 July 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

Probably the same place quirked structure and armor go.

That's not very fair is it. Ammo is ammo, and the same ammo should weigh the same.
Structure and amour strength however is not only based on weight but on construction and geometry.

Edited by Yellonet, 27 July 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Lugh]

DarthRevis, on 27 July 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which is a even worse idea....

So because ONE MECH cant have enough Gauss ammo for people who are bad shots you think EVERY SINGLE MECH IN THE GAME should get a increase?

How many times have we said Blanket Nerfs and Buffs are a BAD IDEA.


Some people...


So lrms with 300 missles per ton?

SRMs with 200 per ton?

You realzie i would be able to bring ONE ton of ammo on most fo my brawl mechs and be just fine if you did this. Which means more DHS on my timbys and crows, more weapons, TC in mechs i skimped on them cuz of tonnage room for BAP, etc etc.


This makes all mechs stronger and will still leave you poor little SHC in the dust. Understand what you are purposing before you do so...If you raise the bar of all mechs then your problem mech is still in the same relative spot to the rest. If everyone get Gauss ammo increase then the SHC will still be the red headed step child of the bunch with not as much.

What does this fix?

Viability of ammo based builds in CW for one. Though a reload module consumable would ALSO do this as well if not better.

[Revis Volek]

Lugh, on 27 July 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Viability of ammo based builds in CW for one. Though a reload module consumable would ALSO do this as well if not better.

And there we go....give us a Reload Station or a Reload module. You want 30 more rounds of gauss....cost you 10 seconds of standing still being reloded by a drone or something.

No more magic ammo amounts

No more this mech holds x amount in a tons while this one does not

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 July 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Jman5]

I think autocannons are almost there in terms of ammo and tonnage efficiency. The recent change they made to AC/10s was a positive step. It basically made the weapon a ton leaner.

I would like to see similar small buffs to ammo across the board.

Edited by Jman5, 27 July 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Livewyr]

Darth, the Ammo is a concern for ballistics/missiles vs. lasers/PPCs.

The shadowcat just gets hit among the hardest because unlike the Blackjack, (which routinely mounts an AC20) it cannot change its engine...

The DPS on both of them are about comparable, but the lasers have unlimited ammo and therefore are a staple of winning community warfare teams.

[xWiredx]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

in 12 v 12, we've managed to work with it, but you cannot bring a mech with enough ammo for 12v12 to community warfare, and expect to excel.

CW is still technically 12 v 12. It's just 12 v 12 4 times and if you survive the wave then you get to keep a bonus in the dropship for when you need it. Run out of ammo? Time to switch mechs. It really is that simple. We're not going to let you keep your easy mode dragon 1N, boom jager, dakkawhale, or gauss wolf out there by increasing the ammo just because you don't want to let it die.

Can't tell how many times we've had this discussion already. Ammo was already increased in the past, there's zero reason to do it again.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

At one time. PGI had convergence rate- but the amount of stress on the server was too great. (Warping, weapons crossing randomly, etc..)

That's the actual excuse they gave, eh? They can't start to fix the game proper, because their game and coding is TOO advanced and awesome for the limited modern technology society has available? Who'd have known that MW:O was light years ahead of anything ever made by any company, ever!

Wow, my bulls**t detector almost broke. lol.

I guess with that excuse it's too much to ask them to rework the code, or fix the hardware issue then...

[Livewyr]

xWiredx, on 27 July 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Can't tell how many times we've had this discussion already. Ammo was already increased in the past, there's zero reason to do it again.

So... let's pull up the stats and see how many larger energy (LL/LPL/PPC) there are vs how many ballistics are out there.. and what mechs they are on. Dire Wolves mount a lot of ballistics.. because they cannot possible fill up their crits or tonnage with other combinations given current mechanics. (Courtesy of not being able to change their engine.)

If the DakkaWolf is such a problem (which it isn't for me) then fix that, don't keep ballistics crippled on mechs lighter than 80 tons (or 65 in some cases) to solve 1-2 mechs.

[Revis Volek]

xWiredx, on 27 July 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

CW is still technically 12 v 12. It's just 12 v 12 4 times and if you survive the wave then you get to keep a bonus in the dropship for when you need it. Run out of ammo? Time to switch mechs. It really is that simple. We're not going to let you keep your easy mode dragon 1N, boom jager, dakkawhale, or gauss wolf out there by increasing the ammo just because you don't want to let it die.

Can't tell how many times we've had this discussion already. Ammo was already increased in the past, there's zero reason to do it again.

No one thinks about the Boom Jagers or the AC5 Dragons, the Grid Irons or even the Dakka whales when they ask for stuff like this...and then we get roll backs and re do's and BS patches and a lot more work for PGI for nothing.

Livewyr,

Ammo is not a concern for anyone worth their salt in the mech using it. If you bring and SRM mech in CW then make it count and coordinate with you team to get close and wreck them. If you bring a Gauss mech and its a one trick pony then make sure you have enough ammo in the build to drop 800 or so dmg and a few kills or its a bad build for CW.

Simple as that...not all builds will work in CW. Also the SHC you should be bringin to CW is 2x Er Lrg and 1x Er Med that you say has no ammo to depend on.

If you cant beat em join em right?

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 July 2015 - 09:15 AM.