107 replies to this topic

[Trev Firestorm]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

So the 25% increased ammo for 100% armor has irritated me for a while, but now it hits me on a personal level. My Shadow Cat.

The SHC cannot change engines or MASC, or JJs, and cannot mount more than a couple tons of ammo for a Gauss Rifle. (Which is the prime variant, and strangely, PGI's P variant.)

In Battletech, that would be fine, as a couple of tons of GR ammo could do serious damage to normal armor values, but here we have double'd the armor (for a good reason) yet we only have 25% increased ammo on Ballistics. (Lasers do not matter as they have unlimited ammo) Missiles have between 0% and 50% increased ammo.

Why not make all ammo increased 100%? It is not as though this is a new idea, but it's more critical for me now, as my favorite mech is pretty much reduced to laser vomit, and not even a Lore build.

Been saying this since (my) day one back in beta.

[Kain Demos]

When they doubled armor this should have been done.

[Roadkill]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

(Lasers do not matter as they have unlimited ammo)

Not true. Not true at all.

A laser's "ammo" is heat, and heat has been massively nerfed in MWO compared to Table Top.

A Large Laser can fire once every 10 seconds in BattleTech, so its heat is completely neutral if you mount 4 Double Heat Sinks. That same Large Laser can fire every 4 seconds in MWO yet the DHS it relies on are only 70% as efficient as they should be. You need the equivalent of 14 TT DHS to manage that same LL's heat.

Even with armor doubling, Ballistics are better off than Energy weapons in MWO.

Energy weapons have been nerfed hard in MWO. There's absolutely no need to further increase the ammo of ballistics.

[Livewyr]

DarthRevis, on 27 July 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Livewyr,

Ammo is not a concern for anyone worth their salt in the mech using it. If you bring and SRM mech in CW then make it count and coordinate with you team to get close and wreck them. If you bring a Gauss mech and its a one trick pony then make sure you have enough ammo in the build to drop 800 or so dmg and a few kills or its a bad build for CW.

Simple as that...not all builds will work in CW. Also the SHC you should be bringin to CW is 2x Er Lrg and 1x Er Med that you say has no ammo to depend on.

If you cant beat em join em right?

1: Ballistics are restricted to Heavy mechs or heavier. (Minor exceptions for Blackjack and HBK, which can modify engines, and SCR which has heavy podspace.)
2: I am running shadowcats with energy loadouts (including the ERLL)
3: The problem is, that for clans it is almost exclusively lasers due to such low podspace numbers.

(Summoners, Gargoyles, Executioners, Hellbringers, all have very little podspace for their weight... and the WHK just doesn't have the ballistic hardpoints)

The only problem clan mech is the DakkaWolf.. which can be solved.. (I mean, hell, they had no problem making the TBR unviable for lasers..)

--------------------------------

Roadkill, it's kind of hard to argue that point, because unlike heat, which improves- ammo does not come back in a match.

[IronLichRich]

Roadkill, on 27 July 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Energy weapons have been nerfed hard in MWO. There's absolutely no need to further increase the ammo of ballistics.

I don't see how energy weapons have been nerfed hard in MWO. They remain one of the most efficient ways to kill things and don't have to worry about ammo. Lasers probably need their cooldowns increased, but that can't happen until they fix heat because people will run more lasers to make up for increased cooldown.

That said, ballistic ammo is fine where it is. People aren't gping to use this to take the same amount of ammo and take more weapons instead.

[Joseph Mallan]

IronLichRich, on 27 July 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

I don't see how energy weapons have been nerfed hard in MWO. They remain one of the most efficient ways to kill things and don't have to worry about ammo. Lasers probably need their cooldowns increased, but that can't happen until they fix heat because people will run more lasers to make up for increased cooldown.

That said, ballistic ammo is fine where it is. People aren't gping to use this to take the same amount of ammo and take more weapons instead.

On TT a Large laser does all its damage front loaded. So damage isn't burned into 3 locations on a moving Mech.

[process]

Yellonet, on 27 July 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Are there really any other 45 ton mech that can field a GG with plenty of ammo + secondary weapons (while still having decent engine + armour)? Besides, mechs should be compromises, if there's a mech where you do not have to compromise it would be too OP, even for a clan mech.

That's a fair point. I don't disagree with the notion that increasing ammo too generously can result in OPness, and you are correct that other mechs that have more ideal loadouts certainly lack the positive qualities of the Shadow Cat. This is why I would only advocate for increasing ammo in modest amounts on an extremely limited number of chassis.

Yellonet, on 27 July 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

That's not very fair is it. Ammo is ammo, and the same ammo should weigh the same.
Structure and amour strength however is not only based on weight but on construction and geometry.

Structure is proportional to the weight, while armor directly affects the weight at 32 points per ton using standard armor. Surely if we can rationalize putting an extra half ton of armor on a mech due to it's unique geometry, we can rationalize being able to efficiently store ammo due to unique geometry.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

So the 25% increased ammo for 100% armor has irritated me for a while, but now it hits me on a personal level. My Shadow Cat.

The SHC cannot change engines or MASC, or JJs, and cannot mount more than a couple tons of ammo for a Gauss Rifle. (Which is the prime variant, and strangely, PGI's P variant.)

In Battletech, that would be fine, as a couple of tons of GR ammo could do serious damage to normal armor values, but here we have double'd the armor (for a good reason) yet we only have 25% increased ammo on Ballistics. (Lasers do not matter as they have unlimited ammo) Missiles have between 0% and 50% increased ammo.

Why not make all ammo increased 100%? It is not as though this is a new idea, but it's more critical for me now, as my favorite mech is pretty much reduced to laser vomit, and not even a Lore build.

You're thinking like an individual pilot, not a group. Additionally, you're using one reference point as a desire to change things across the board. The shadowcat is a medium... with a lot of tech. It has limitations and that's the nature of the beast.

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

1: Ballistics are restricted to Heavy mechs or heavier. (Minor exceptions for Blackjack and HBK, which can modify engines, and SCR which has heavy podspace.)
2: I am running shadowcats with energy loadouts (including the ERLL)
3: The problem is, that for clans it is almost exclusively lasers due to such low podspace numbers.

(Summoners, Gargoyles, Executioners, Hellbringers, all have very little podspace for their weight... and the WHK just doesn't have the ballistic hardpoints)

The only problem clan mech is the DakkaWolf.. which can be solved.. (I mean, hell, they had no problem making the TBR unviable for lasers..)

--------------------------------

Roadkill, it's kind of hard to argue that point, because unlike heat, which improves- ammo does not come back in a match.

The TBR has always been viable for lasers.

[Revis Volek]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

1: Ballistics are restricted to Heavy mechs or heavier. (Minor exceptions for Blackjack and HBK, which can modify engines, and SCR which has heavy podspace.)
2: I am running shadowcats with energy loadouts (including the ERLL)
3: The problem is, that for clans it is almost exclusively lasers due to such low podspace numbers.

(Summoners, Gargoyles, Executioners, Hellbringers, all have very little podspace for their weight... and the WHK just doesn't have the ballistic hardpoints)

The only problem clan mech is the DakkaWolf.. which can be solved.. (I mean, hell, they had no problem making the TBR unviable for lasers..)

The clan mechs are not really the issue as clan ballistics have never really been viable up until recently and it is still no contest vs Laser vomit or Laser vomit coupled w/ gauss. If they continue to do things to improve them then maybe...but for now Gauss is our only viable ballistic. The IS mechs however getting increases in the Ammo amount along with crazy quirks would be a massive OP situation on some mechs, like the AC5 dragon, Grid Iron, The Oxidie and Huggin get a boost and the huggin can go back to mount MG's effectively now potentially while stilling have the SRM ammo due to a increase.

Also Adder can mount a uac20 or Gauss just fine because it isn't stocked to the gills with tech like the SCH. You trade some firepower for mobility in the SCH, also you can get in 2.5 tons of gauss ammo with a little tweaking on the Prime with full armor almost. I dont really see the issue...

[Light-Speed]

If not for the fact that I am not used to the rhythms and gun movement speed of my Divine Intervention Mk III, I could have shown you evidence that it works fine.
Sad. Old habits got into the way and now it's obsolete to me...
But's it's viable... no idea what you are complaining about.

[Jman5]

Would anyone freak out if the AC/2 ammo went from 75/ton to 100/ton? The total tonnage you would gain is probably around half a ton to a ton per autocannon. When the AC/10 got that buff a couple weeks ago, the sky did not fall. Autocannons did not start raining death and destruction.

Edited by Jman5, 27 July 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

The CW issue is strange to me. It is the folks who sit in back and shoot at any easily available enemy that cause teams to loose. They do not share the risk associated with the push. I am looking for how fire support and coward became synonymous terms in a FPS shooter game. The games are usually won because one teams see a whole S**T L**D of mechs approaching them they do not present enough firepower to counter it. This is the reason blob warfare works so well, because MM and CW with their lack of MM will have newer players and damage hogs who hide whenever they see more than 4 red squares (even if their team has a better firing line). Pushing the enemy as a group leads to death, but it also leads to more wins.

These are the same folks who have 2-3 mechs left at the end of the match. I have never noticed these folks turning a match around because they have mechs with ammo left and every one else is dead. They are farmed at their drop.

In CW, I will take .5 extra tons for every 5-10 tubes of lrms added to the 1 ton per 5 tubes and 2.5 - 3 for ballistics unless clan uac10s (3.5-4tons). I try to spend my mechs in waves with the rest of the team. If I am low on ammo or that wave is almost gone I will become more aggressive. If the mech is the last of a wave and reinforcements are on the way, I will wait and be the spearhead for the next attack even if it is a lrm or long range build. I can then go and get my faster mech and catch up with the group.

If you are using the Scat in CW it should be with a SCrow, HBR, and Twolf. It is the throw away mech that is more than useable at 45 tons with ecm. You can drop the ecm and get a uac10 with 3.5 tons and 3ermlas or gauss w3tons and 2ermlas. With lrms and ecm, you can get 2 lrm10+A with 3 ermlas and 5 tons of ammo. The artemis is used for a faster target lock with JJs, but it can be dropped for a heatsink or ammo. Remember this is a 45 ton mech with 3 tons of JJ and masc (still better than most IS builds after trading the weapon weights and ranges).

If we get more ammo, I will keep the builds the same and add weapons, cooling or TAC/CAP as allowed.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Just a small note, I do not personally own a Shadow Cat. But while playing on my roommates account I had a lot of fun treating it like I would pilot a Jenner with 2 ER Med and a UAC5. Yeah, you can run out of ammo for sure, but if you play smart you can wreak havoc with a decent DPS and that kind of mobility and they are focused on fighting your teammates.

[Roadkill]

IronLichRich, on 27 July 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

I don't see how energy weapons have been nerfed hard in MWO.

As Joe said, in TT they are FLD weapons. All of their damage automatically applies to the same location.

But in addition, they're less heat efficient pretty much across the board, and that's compounded by the nerf to Double Heat Sinks. Just as one example, the Clan Medium Pulse Laser does 7 damage for 4 heat in Table Top vs 8 damage for 6 heat in MWO.

[Zordicron]

Nah

Between the ammo buff we got and the new HSR, I have actually removed ammo from many of my loadouts. It's amazing how much less ammo you need when the shells actually count instead of vanishing into the ether.

Besides, there is some mystic voodoo new balance pass coming in a couple months, or so Paul and Russ say. I would just wait for that to pan out before calling for changes, we don;t even know what they are planning at this point.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's not just buffing the C- GR.. it buffs both, to be on par with the armor they must deal with.

C-GR is already much more powerful than its tabletop version because you can aim for the same location repeatedly.

tabletop has random hit locations which put your gauss shots all over the place. But MWO lets you keep putting those gauss in the same spot. Thats magnitudes more powerful than gauss in tabletop.

Not to mention gauss in MWO already gets 50% more ammo too.

Gauss does not need anymore ammo per ton.

Edited by Khobai, 28 July 2015 - 12:42 AM.

[Mawai]

Khobai, on 27 July 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

Actually they should raise the heat cap. They did in tabletop.

In tabletop, if you have 20 DHS in tabletop you need to generate 70 heat to automatically shutdown.

but if you only have 10 DHS in tabletop you only need to generate 50 heat to automatically shut down.


The problem is the lack of heat penalties. Theres no punishment for riding the heat curve and constantly running hot.



I disagree. Clan autocannons are A LOT better now that they decreased the burst count and volley delay. I would argue that clan autocannons would be compeitive in lieu of a laser nerf.

And clan SRMs would certainly be competitive in a brawling meta. The problem is the current long-range meta takes a dump on brawling weapons. Brawling needs to be brought back and given some teeth.

The long-range meta is the whole problem. And lasers are primarily responsible for it.

I think you need to qualify "And lasers are primarily responsible for it."

It should read "And CLAN lasers are primarily responsible for it"

CLAN ER-Medium laser has almost the range of an IS LL while Clan ER-Large Lasers are over 800m with a module.

Clan Large Pulse lasers have almost the range of an IS ER-LL ... a little less than double the range of the IS LPL. Clans have a similar range advantage across all lasers.

On the other hand the IS ML has a range of 270 to 300 (w module) which puts it squarely in brawling range with SRMs and AC20.

So .. clans run lasers because they are lightweight and provide significant range advantages. Even mostly CER-ML builds are as effective at 500m as they are at brawling ranges ... so why would they NOT fit lasers?

Even clan streak missiles have a range of 360m as do their heaviest ballistics (leaving out MG). As a result, there is NO advantage for clan mechs to close to brawling range of 200m since all of their weapons are just as effective at 400m but IS weapons are not.

If you add in the fact that clan mechs are typically significantly faster than equivalent IS mechs ... it makes it much easier for clan mechs to dictate range ... thus we have long range fights ... primarily due to the range of clan weapons and the superior mobility of clan mechs.

By the way, the IS response is two fold
1) Try to close range using terrain
2) Equip some longer range IS weapons ... LL, ERLL, PPC, ERPPC, AC10 and smaller. This lets the IS at least damage clans but the IS ML which is probably the most tonnage efficient damage has such a short range compared to clans that it is mostly a backup weapon unless you can close range. On the other hand, the clans can use the CERML as a primary weapon due to the range advantage.

Edited by Mawai, 28 July 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 28 July 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

C-GR is already much more powerful than its tabletop version because you can aim for the same location repeatedly.

tabletop has random hit locations which put your gauss shots all over the place. But MWO lets you keep putting those gauss in the same spot. Thats magnitudes more powerful than gauss in tabletop.

Not to mention gauss in MWO already gets 50% more ammo too.

Gauss does not need anymore ammo per ton.

This is often true, but not always true. Don't make it sound like We can never hit the same location twice in a row.

[Wolfwood592]

So because you can't run enough ammo on your shadowcat you now want more munitions around? This doesn't seem to make sense as I have buddies who have ZERO issue running 3 tons of ammo and a couple ermls on the cat....seems to me like this post is just wanting an easy way to do more damage in a medium.


The overall issue comes down to PGI's inability to offer a legitimate balance...they just want to put band-**** on and hope it all works out eventually.

Edited by Wolfwood592, 28 July 2015 - 05:29 AM.

[Mechteric]

100% agree with OP.