98 replies to this topic

[Zuesacoatl]

gloowa, on 07 August 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

So, what is your proposed fix here? ban 12 mans? ban groups at all? change human nature? For last 3 pages people were telling you that your primary weapon as a PUG is VOIP.

Let me tell you this another way. If your team does not coordinate with VOIP/TS/Mumble/Whatever and focus targets, even if every single PUG dropped 4xDragon-4N and the attacking 12 man would drop 4x XL Victors with AC2s, whey would still wipe the floor with PUGs and spawn camp them.

The fatal flaw i saw with PUG groups is the overwhelming fear. 75% of pugs will do everything in their power to have at least 5 friendlies between them and the enemy. The remaining 25% will rush 12 enemies with thier locusts or whatever. When i drop with 3 of my friends, and see pugs on my own team staying in the dropzone with ERLL builds... that's jsut sad. And then score screen cames up with our lance having ~30 kills out of 48 and every one of us doing 2k+ damage and some pugs not breaking 300 damge in four mechs...

It's not the groups, it's not the maps, it's the bads. With bad mechs, and terrible "tactics" that they were indoctrinated with while dropping non-CW. The non-CW solo drops train you to be bad. To be super scared of having your mech destroyed. To not take risks. To use that medium mech as a shield for your assault. To ignore objective and team, because i need to squirrel after that spider-cookie. To fight lights with lights. To not pop that UAV/Airstrike because C-Bills. To not engage and wait until enemy is damaged by someone else and then to step in for easy score. And most importantly, to use ****** mechs and still be able to perform, because other team had even ******er mechs.

The opposite of every single one of those points is required to succeed in CW. And that does not include team coordination (which is ~60-70% of the job), only pilot-level ****-ups.

You see, I am not asking for it to change. I am out of CW. I just agreed with the original post that when a good to great 12 finds it fun to punish and beat down a pug group with a round of pug duck hunt, you will start to lose players from CW. That is a catalyst for increasing drop times, and overall unhappiness from the bigger teams, but it is a selfinflicted wound that can be stemmed if those teams that enjoy pug duckhunt on attack maps quell their need to beat down pugs and just finish the game so everyone can move on. I know human nature wont allow them to do that, and i know it will not allow people to admit it is a problem, especially if they know they do it themselves.

As I said in my previous post, not surprisingly you skipped over this fact to allow your rant, I work with my team. I am only not in a unit because no unit can compare to the one that I was a part of in my opinion. But i use the ingame VOIP, and when dropping with my brothers, or others, I use both the drop comms for the group, and the in-game VOIP. So again, that must be your hangup not mine. I know there are bad players in the game, and I know I have suffered the camp scenario because of them, but just because a team knows they are there in an attack scenario, does not mean they should punish them for not being as uber as they are. Kill the omega and end the game, that is my take on it. I know it wont happen, and again, people wont even admit it is a problem, so I just stepped out. I just wanted to agree with the original post, so I did.

[gloowa]

Zuesacoatl, on 07 August 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

Kill the omega and end the game, that is my take on it

As soon as that yelds more C-Bills then farming kills, it will happen.

Zuesacoatl, on 07 August 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

I just agreed with the original post that when a good to great 12 finds it fun to punish and beat down a pug group with a round of pug duck hunt, you will start to lose players from CW.

Didn't ever play in a group where reaction was anything other than "<sigh> boring match again". Believe me, it's not fun. But man has to earn the CBills some way, doesn't he?

Edited by gloowa, 07 August 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I'll go out on a limb here -

I don't even care if someone doesn't do 1,000 damage. That comes in time. You can learn to shoot robbits better and you can buy/master better builds.

I care about the following things in someone playing CW:

1. Did they actively participate in the TEAM aspect of the match. As in, did they respond in VOIP or chat when the drop caller gave direction? Did they go where they were told? Did they talk **** and whine about everything?

2. Did they at least try to fill the roles they were directed? As in, did they run off alone to snipe or stay with the group? Did they hold their part of the firing line and soak damage? Did they report enemy positions when scouting? When the time came to push did they push, when the time came to hold did they hold?

3. Did they at least seem aware that some decks are better than others? Not everyone has 100 bays with tons of mechs and 60 chassis mastered. Not everyone is even aware of what makes a meta build. That's okay, it's a skill that comes in time. The question is are they at least aware of it and willing to bring something useful in a deck as soon as it is viable? 4 mechs designed for useful roles and effective at performing them? Essentially are they willing to learn how to build good robbits?

You give me those 3 things and I'm perfectly happy, win or lose. Everyone has good and bad matches. I'd forgotten where I'd mapped eject as well as deploying air strike/arty and I'd also totally messed up my mouse settings (both in MW:O when I had to reinstall and in Corsair) and at one point was spraying fire *everywhere* and couldn't hit ****. Stuff that is a matter of practice and skill is less important than having the WILL to play CW as part of the team. You can teach people the former, not so much the latter.

[TWIAFU]

Zuesacoatl, on 07 August 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Your ignorance is showing again.....

Fist, if not for the solo drops, teams of 8-10 would have a harder time finding a match quicly. It is the solo that tends to fill the voids cause by smaller teams joining. So if you start losing more and more soloist, your queue starts to climb higher and higher in time waiting to drop, again, I was there when it was 12 mans vs 12 mans only, long queue times, lost plenty of good teams.

Second, you assume I am a bad player, with bad mechs, and do not coop with the team I am on. That has to be your hang up because that is not me. When I play, I play with the team, I call drops or listen when someone tries to call them. i want to win. My problem stems from the games when a good 12 goes against a ragtag team of solos and small groups and forgets the notion of sportsmanship and camps them. Sure, if that 12 is defending, their only option is to wipe out the opfor to the last mech, i know that, but if they are the attackers and ignore the omega for pug duckhunt instead, well, that tends to be a bit on the epeen growing unsportsman side for me. You may not agree with it, but I am not forcing you to. I stepped out of CW because of it, not because I am bad, but because when your team is at the mercy of a great 12 that has no tact, it tends to get annoying.

Hey, look at that! You have almost come full circle! Evil premade, evil 12mans, rolfstomping, pug farming, and ending with evil 12mans mocking you.

You have almost covered all excuses.

Bravo!

[TWIAFU]

MischiefSC, on 07 August 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

I'll go out on a limb here -

I don't even care if someone doesn't do 1,000 damage. That comes in time. You can learn to shoot robbits better and you can buy/master better builds.

I care about the following things in someone playing CW:

1. Did they actively participate in the TEAM aspect of the match. As in, did they respond in VOIP or chat when the drop caller gave direction? Did they go where they were told? Did they talk **** and whine about everything?

2. Did they at least try to fill the roles they were directed? As in, did they run off alone to snipe or stay with the group? Did they hold their part of the firing line and soak damage? Did they report enemy positions when scouting? When the time came to push did they push, when the time came to hold did they hold?

3. Did they at least seem aware that some decks are better than others? Not everyone has 100 bays with tons of mechs and 60 chassis mastered. Not everyone is even aware of what makes a meta build. That's okay, it's a skill that comes in time. The question is are they at least aware of it and willing to bring something useful in a deck as soon as it is viable? 4 mechs designed for useful roles and effective at performing them? Essentially are they willing to learn how to build good robbits?

For all I care, #1 and #2. More #1 then anything as #2 will come with time in participating in #1.

This whole thing boils down to one thing;

Solo players do not want to participate in team based activities. Team must be changed so teamwork is no longer key to victory. They have to be the special snowflake and not the team.

Even on level footing, all teamwork must end for all even if they are given the choice to participate in teamwork or not.

[gloowa]

There. This is why stomps happen. People that can't break 1k. That guy with 133 dmg? He went to the other gate because "i am not going to be blocked by some duchebag while trying to move back, and i will play for fun by myself, and i don't care about rest of you". THAT is the problem. Loving the founders mark on him as well.

Edited by gloowa, 07 August 2015 - 01:43 PM.

[Super Trooper]

While not reading all the pages of the discussion. One option would be to put a payout bonus based on the time remaining on attack matches. Yes this could result in more light rushes, but it would be balanced now that the clan has the artic cheetah, but may reduce the number of death matches if you could get a comparable payout by achieving the objective quickly.

[Vlad Ward]

gloowa, on 07 August 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

People that can't break 1k.

I feel like this screen may be even more appropriate.

Note: Yes, they really were running a bunch of crabs and urbanmechs. The rest of blue team still didn't break 1k damage and got pushed to spawn.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vlad Ward, on 07 August 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

I feel like this screen may be even more appropriate.

Note: Yes, they really were running a bunch of crabs and urbanmechs. The rest of blue team still didn't break 1k damage and got pushed to spawn.

LMAO I am bummed I missed the King Crab/Urbanmech drop. Hopefully they will do it again sometime.

[IraqiWalker]

gloowa, on 07 August 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

There. This is why stomps happen. People that can't break 1k. That guy with 133 dmg? He went to the other gate because "i am not going to be blocked by some duchebag while trying to move back, and i will play for fun by myself, and i don't care about rest of you". THAT is the problem. Loving the founders mark on him as well.

The 133 guy doesn't have a Founders tag. It's the 307 guy that has a founders tag.

[Frankenst3in]

13 flamer stormcrows X 11 of us first wave

[gloowa]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

The 133 guy doesn't have a Founders tag. It's the 307 guy that has a founders tag.

Yeah, you are right. Doesn't really change anything does it? less than 100 damage per mech. You can get more damage by having a thunderbolt and clicking 4 times. <sigh>

[MischiefSC]

A good KGC/Urbanmech combo actually.... isn't terrible, with decent builds. I wouldn't even complain about that.

It's the people who bring multiple LRM boats, dual gauss and stand alone on a hill while the team pushes the other side, etc.

Someone who does 500 damage but played well, drew fire and held enemy attention is still a good addition to the team for me.

[Deathlike]

Vlad Ward, on 07 August 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

I feel like this screen may be even more appropriate.

Note: Yes, they really were running a bunch of crabs and urbanmechs. The rest of blue team still didn't break 1k damage and got pushed to spawn.

I'm sorry I wasn't there (don't have a King Crab mastered, and I have't touched my Urbie pack).

Sidenote: I'd love to play POE with you guys, but been busying playing ARK with the guys. lol, oh well.



I think having a solo-CW queue would actually be detrimental to the game.

Not only will you have people that "believe" they are "good enough" after facing the solo queue as some sort of "PUG Master" (see Mudhut), it would "acceptable" in CW.

Nothing can be further from the truth here.


I wrote a CW thread about "addressing this", and I know it's not optimal, but the jist is simply that a solo lance (at most 4 players) would be paired up with a large or multiple smaller premades, and would indirectly have to be "taught" that way. This would be built for BOTH sides to even things out (they have to have almost the same # of PUGs on each side).

Such a rudimentary MM change has to be made, as working together is key for CW's success and growth. Cultivating bad habits in the solo queue SHOULD NOT TRANSLATE AS A VALID CW MODE OPTION. People doing their own thing ALWAYS score at the bottom. Many times, you are effectively playing with 1 man down every single time the solo PUG players are "not with the program".


It's similar to older MMs used for non-CW matches, but it has greater value in that it intentionally adapts solo PUGs to play/plan with people AND doesn't require them to join a unit (mostly a TS server at the very minimum - or just using in-game TS).

TL;DR There should be IN NO WAY be a SOLO ONLY CW QUEUE. That is UNACCEPTABLE when you consider the state of the solo non-CW queue.

Integrating solo PUGs with other premades with people giving directions or whatnot is the optimal scenario in lieu of an actual BUILT-IN CW Tutorial.

What would probably also have to happen is some sort of CW-drop commander bonus (people voting the drop commander's performance or whatever, altering the bonus that player gets after a drop - it's just a bonus gain for doing what has to be done in a CW match).

That would greatly help CW and cultivate it properly.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 August 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[fat4eyes]

On spawn camping: Put 8 12 a buttload of invincible non-overheating quad medium pulse laser turrets in the spawn areas. Or if you're feeling especially lazy, just put a 100ft wall that the opposition can't jump up to but the spawners can jump down from. Also, the spawn areas should be all connected, so the team being spawncamped could group up for a push in safety. Problem solved.

As for pug-farming, being on the wrong side of a stomp every so often is annoying but tolerable, but being stomped, then taking 10 minutes to find another match and then getting stomped again is rage-quit inducing. In the regular modes this was fixed with the elo matchmaker and separating group and solo queues. I don't see why they shouldn't try the same strategy for CW as well. No-skilled pugs like myself get to fight other no-skilled pugs and have fun, while the ubers fight other ubers and have fun. As it is, no-skill pugs don't play at all, the ubers drop against no-one, and nobody has fun. Certainly the choice is obvious.

[Vlad Ward]

fat4eyes, on 07 August 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

On spawn camping: Put 8 12 a buttload of invincible non-overheating quad medium pulse laser turrets in the spawn areas. Or if you're feeling especially lazy, just put a 100ft wall that the opposition can't jump up to but the spawners can jump down from. Also, the spawn areas should be all connected, so the team being spawncamped could group up for a push in safety. Problem solved.

Say hello to aimbot dropships with a billion large lasers. If you're getting spawn camped, it's because the skill mismatch between teams is so awful that it's better for everyone involved to just get it over with and find a new match.

fat4eyes, on 07 August 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

As for pug-farming, being on the wrong side of a stomp every so often is annoying but tolerable, but being stomped, then taking 10 minutes to find another match and then getting stomped again is rage-quit inducing. In the regular modes this was fixed with the elo matchmaker and separating group and solo queues. I don't see why they shouldn't try the same strategy for CW as well. No-skilled pugs like myself get to fight other no-skilled pugs and have fun, while the ubers fight other ubers and have fun. As it is, no-skill pugs don't play at all, the ubers drop against no-one, and nobody has fun. Certainly the choice is obvious.

"I want to play in a queue full of people who are just as terrible as I am" ?

This is not all that different from the vast majority of games I see. It's usually the 2-3 decent players out of the 24 total in a match that end up wrecking the balance between teams, while 16-20 other people run around shooting LRMs into rocks.

All it takes to change from "getting stomped every game" to "stomping every game" is for a single player to become one of those 2-3 and carry harder.

Edit:

Deathlike, on 07 August 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Sidenote: I'd love to play POE with you guys, but been busying playing ARK with the guys. lol, oh well.

You're welcome any time! Just drop by on TS whenever you want to play and we'll get you in the guild and stuff. There's always a bunch of random uniques and things no one's using sitting in the stash there.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 07 August 2015 - 09:23 PM.

[Leggin Ho]

Set the spawns so that neither the defenders nor the attackers can climb/jump on top of the wall protecting them and then they may actually leave the spawn instead of trying to snipe / missle boat from there. All the ability to hide in spawn and snipe does is force the other team to come and and kill them in the spawn.

Edited by Leggin Ho, 08 August 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[Scyther]

If farming pays more rewards than a fast/early completion, people will farm.

Not to mention the possible stat-padding for statists.

If the base rewards were multiplied by a 'time to completion' factor (shorter = more rewards), this would cut down on the farming.

Of course, then you would see mass variations on the whole 'rush'/insta-gib approach, but at least it would all be over quickly.

[o0Marduk0o]

fat4eyes, on 07 August 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

In the regular modes this was fixed with the elo matchmaker and separating group and solo queues.

It was not fixed, it had no effect on match results. The only difference is, you wipe against groups and not against other pugs.

[Aresye]

fat4eyes, on 07 August 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

On spawn camping: Put 8 12 a buttload of invincible non-overheating quad medium pulse laser turrets in the spawn areas. Or if you're feeling especially lazy, just put a 100ft wall that the opposition can't jump up to but the spawners can jump down from. Also, the spawn areas should be all connected, so the team being spawncamped could group up for a push in safety. Problem solved.

We already have separate spawn areas away from the fighting that teams can regroup and organize pushes from. Spawn areas covered by dropships with a metric buttload of ERLL that automatically aim for CTs. Dropships that stay there and linger for enough time to allow new spawns to move away from where they drop.

If you are still being spawn camped, you've lost...big time.