157 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

I don't know man, this seems pretty spot-on

Hahaha
But yeah, the personal stats are a terrible way to go by.
Take me for example, my highest K/D is in the Trial Trebuchet. (Not even kidding)
Sure, i've only been in it for like 10 matches, but still.

My Raven 2X has the highest damage per match of all my mechs...but I only played 1 match with it.

[Roadkill]

Dino Might, on 10 August 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:

That's the thing - there might be some hitbox brokenness, but I think it's more due to the size, speed, and geometry. The hitboxes may be working exactly as they should, because the thing is about the aspect of a spider, and tanky like one.

I've been playing my ACH-Prime lately, and I don't see any of this crap that other people are talking about. I kill other Cheetoes, I get killed, and all damage seems to register as far as I can see.

The thing is, you spread damage all of the Cheetoes. Someone shoots me with a laser alpha and my entire mech lights up and takes damage. They probably thought they shouuld have cored me, but I could see the beam moving as it waved all over my Mech so the damage spread was appropriate.

I think that Spiders are still far more difficult to hit and kill that Arctic Cheetoes. If you accept that Spiders (and to a lesser extent, Commandos) are okay, then the Arctic Cheetoe is fine as well.

[Aresye]

Sarlic, on 10 August 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

That's a great video. Nice slow mo's.

1:23 you fired a full alpha in it's back. That alpha should have gotten him on a orange open rear.

If the full alpha hit nothing but the rear CT, yes, however the frame by frame shows that the majority of his alpha landed on the rear RT, which still had armor remaining + full internal structure.

Also, the CT was yellow prior to his shot at 1:23. The brief time the lasers raked the CT brought it to orange, while the majority of the laser damage removed the remaining armor off the rear RT and brought its internals to orange as well.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 10 August 2015 - 07:52 AM.

[Dino Might]

Diomed, on 10 August 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Light mechs seem really out of control right now, feels like the bad old days of the Raven 3L with lag-shields.

Your problem is with ACH and FS9. The fact that they comprise 90% of all the light mechs you see on the field does not mean that all light mechs are OP. I concede, the LCT-1E is OP, and I contribute to the problem, but at least it's not as common...

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

Using personal stats to indicate mech effectiveness is a bit silly, because...

I'm not using personal stats to indicate mech effectiveness. I stated that we were editorializing, and someone was complaining we had no evidence and were not qualified to make such statements. I provided personal stats to show that I had plenty of experience in lights, thereby qualifying me to make editorial statements with some level of relevance to them.

Please, tell me one area where the ACH does not excel.

The stats that matter on what I posted are the "games played" stats. The K/D, avg dmg, etc. are just in case some people consider me nothing but a playfast bot. I think you can see, from the stats, I have played a lot of lights - one in particular way way way too much - so I my opinion might have some relevance here.

Furthermore, beyond my editorializing, the issues that I cited are objective facts that are visible to anyone in the mech lab. My editorializing was claiming that these paper stats for the ACH translate as expected in-game (i.e., that the mech that is OP on paper is in fact OP in-game).

Roadkill, on 10 August 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

I've been playing my ACH-Prime lately, and I don't see any of this crap that other people are talking about. I kill other Cheetoes, I get killed, and all damage seems to register as far as I can see.

The thing is, you spread damage all of the Cheetoes. Someone shoots me with a laser alpha and my entire mech lights up and takes damage. They probably thought they shouuld have cored me, but I could see the beam moving as it waved all over my Mech so the damage spread was appropriate.

I think that Spiders are still far more difficult to hit and kill that Arctic Cheetoes. If you accept that Spiders (and to a lesser extent, Commandos) are okay, then the Arctic Cheetoe is fine as well.

Spiders and Commandos do not carry 7 C-SMP to destroy a mech in 2-3 alphas.
It's a combination of factors. ACH is no harder to hit/kill than a Spider, but the Spider has some drawbacks. On an individual characteristic basis, the ACH is not OP, but when you combine its best-in-class features (covering ALL characteristics), then yes, it's OP.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 August 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[Tarogato]

Enough whining. It's usually not the hitboxes, it's you.



How do you fix this? Changing hitboxes wouldn't have made the above shots hit, even though at full speed (link here) it's easy to blame the "broken hitboxes".

[Dino Might]

Tarogato, on 10 August 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Enough whining. It's usually not the hitboxes, it's you.

Changing hitboxes wouldn't have made the above shots hit, even though at full speed (link here) it's easy to blame the "broken hitboxes".

Increasing hitbox size would (but then that wouldn't represent the actual mech geometry) - I agree, I don't want that.

Despite the thread title, we've relegated that it's not solely a hitbox issue. If it were, we'd still be crying over the Spider.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 August 2015 - 08:31 AM.

[FupDup]

Tarogato, on 10 August 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Enough whining. It's usually not the hitboxes, it's you.



How do you fix this? Changing hitboxes wouldn't have made the above shots hit, even though at full speed (link here) it's easy to blame the "broken hitboxes".

By making the hitboxes larger than the physical model, of course, just like the Raven's legs.

[Tarogato]

Aresye Kerensky, on 09 August 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

You have 28 damage total in your alpha.

The first 1/3 of the damage hits the rear CT, so that's ~ 10 damage being delivered there.
The other 2/3 hits the rear RT, and stays for the rest of the burn, so that's ~ 18 damage there.

The CT already had yellow internals with no armor, and was still flashing as you shut down. With 20 internal structure, it will turn yellow as soon as it hits 19, so it likely had almost all of its internal CT armor save for 1-2 points, in which the 10 damage you delivered there likely put it just above the red.

The RT is the tricky one. It still has armor, but it's red, so likely only 1-2 points max of armor remaining. The internal structure of 21 points hadn't been touched yet. You definitely focused the remaining 2/3 of your burn on that rear RT, which would give you around 18 damage. As you shut down the paper doll was still updating.

Without further video or screenshot to show the paperdoll after you powered back up, it's impossible to tell. You didn't do enough damage to fully rip off that side torso though. Obviously these are all estimates, but from what we have, there are a few facts we can devolve from the video:

1. You hit the rear CT first.
2. You hit the rear RT second.
3. The rear RT internal structure was 100% healthy at a full 21 points.
4. The paper doll did not finish updating prior to shutting down.

Obviously in real time, this would have looked like complete BS, but with the frame by frame analysis in the recorded video, along with knowing the armor values of the mech, and your damage potential, it cannot definitively prove that there was anything wrong happening.

*Edit: After another rewatch, it appears you hit the rear LT just briefly right on the first hit, so you likely lost another 1-2 points of damage there.

He also hit the right arm hitbox in the back, so that took its share as well. That's 28 damage across four components, and 18 of that damage was ERLL, which applies damage very gradually over its long burn time.

[Tarogato]

nitra, on 09 August 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

you gotta love this.
<video>
no damage applied for the first half of the lasers duration and what does get applied is minuscule.

Doing some analysis on this right now...

your two ML (10 damage together) lasted 18 frames and your ERLL (18 dmg) lasted 28 frames. So on average...

ML = 0.55 dmg/frame
ERLL = 0.643 dmg/frame

Let's count frames:

1 frame, LT (1.19300 dmg)
3 frames, CT (3.57900 dmg)
13 frames RT (15.50900 dmg)
1 frame RA (1.19300 dmg)
4 frames RA (2.57200 dmg, now the MLs are done, so it's just the ERLL, only 0.643 per frame)
6 frames RT (3.85800 dmg)

(note: this is crazy guesswork, since I don't actually know where the hitboxes border each other, so it's a really rough estimate)

---

Totals:

LT = 1.193
CT = 3.579
RT = 19.367
RA = 3.765

---

Unfortunately we shutdown right at the end, so we don't get to see the updated paperdoll (paperdolls lag a little when they flash), but the next time we see him, his RT is open and dark yellow. (I used the other video on your channel with more footage)

If we use the stock armour values, (many players still use stock rear armour and just max the front), that RT would have had 8 armour on the rear. With that gone, 11.36700 dmg would have gone to internals. The RT has 21 internal structure (14 hp + 7 in quirks), so it would be at 54% health.

Now last is the tricky part. When a component is at 54% health, what colour is it? I don't think it's quite linear... paperdolls spend more time in the yellow before they start going into orange, so it might be reasonable to assume that the colouration we see is in fact indicative of the damage that component took.

If he had less than 8 points of armour on the rear, or paperdolls do progress in colour more evenly, then all that's left is hitbox/hitreg funkiness.

I dunno, it's a pretty close call. What do you guys think?

Edited by Tarogato, 10 August 2015 - 09:24 AM.

[nitra]

maybe ill get into a tussle soon with the wub dragon vs a cheetah , although i may not be able to keep up with it. but still, may be some heavy wubbing will turn the tide. should provide for some interesting video at least.

enjoying all the analyzing though.

Edited by nitra, 10 August 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Excessive Paranoia]

Dismissing the hitbox issue because they are also hard to hit due to model size would be a mistake. Its clear that directed fire on a stationary, shut down, ACH can, and often will, fail to fully register, even for single point of contact weapons like gauss rifles or IS AC's. Now, I'm not sure how to address the issue without making the hitboxes larger than the model of the mech, but the basic assumption anyone should be able to make is that if a weapon hits its target, it will do its damage.

In response to the argument that they are no harder to take down than a spider, I would have to disagree. Between the corrected hitboxes and the lack of any kind of durability quirks, you can usually leg a spider with a few well placed sweeps of laser fire and then its all over. Add to the the fact that IS XL engines mean you can often one shot a spider with any weapon or group of weapons capable of dealing ~10 points of damage to the back of a single side torso, and the comparison deflates almost entriely. I've never seen a spider go down slowly under concentrated fire from multiple mechs in the way the ACH can accomplish.

In reality, even with corrected hitboxes, the ACH is so small and slippery that it probably shouldn't have any extra buffs to its durability. If the mech already automatically spreads damage around for you by virtue of the fact that each part of its anatomy is razor thin, then adding the buffs only make it unrealistically durable. Again, I only have to fall back on the image we've all seen time and again by now of one ACH miraculously surviving a concentrated onslaught by 4-8 mechs and still only getting whittled down a few points of damage at a time. There is no possible way that this is working as intended...

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 10 August 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[Roadkill]

Dino Might, on 10 August 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Spiders and Commandos do not carry 7 C-SMP to destroy a mech in 2-3 alphas.
It's a combination of factors. ACH is no harder to hit/kill than a Spider, but the Spider has some drawbacks. On an individual characteristic basis, the ACH is not OP, but when you combine its best-in-class features (covering ALL characteristics), then yes, it's OP.

Firestarters carry 8 SPL (IS).

It's not just the ACH. It's really all of the extremely nimble, small-bodied Lights. Wait for the Wolfhound to come out before you start nerfing the ACH, because I suspect it's going to be the same story all over again.

(I held 3 of the top 10 positions (1st, 3rd, and the 3rd fluctuated in the 5th-8th range) on the MW4 Team Attrition leaderboards for 2 years in a Wolfhound. Don't underestimate what's about to come.)

[Roadkill]

Excessive Paranoia, on 10 August 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Its clear that directed fire on a stationary, shut down, ACH can, and often will, fail to fully register, even for single point of contact weapons like gauss rifles or IS AC's.

This is true for every Mech in the game. People just don't pay attention as much when it happens while shooting at a Dire Wolf because the DW has so much armor anyway. You don't expect a single shot to core the Mech, so you don't notice when it doesn't register.

Lights, and the ACH, are no different than any other Mech when it comes to bad hit registration.

I'll repeat - I'm not having any more trouble killing ACHs than Spiders or Firestarters or even Commandos. And mine sure dies plenty quickly when someone comes after me. You're just seeing a crap-ton of them out there right now so it seems like they're much more buggy. They're not. As soon as the newness wears off the Light queue will be back down below 10% like it usually is.

[FupDup]

Roadkill, on 10 August 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Firestarters carry 8 SPL (IS).

It's not just the ACH. It's really all of the extremely nimble, small-bodied Lights. Wait for the Wolfhound to come out before you start nerfing the ACH, because I suspect it's going to be the same story all over again.

(I held 3 of the top 10 positions (1st, 3rd, and the 3rd fluctuated in the 5th-8th range) on the MW4 Team Attrition leaderboards for 2 years in a Wolfhound. Don't underestimate what's about to come.)

Even the Scrow seems to have just thin enough of a torso to see a similar effect...There seems to be a common denominator here...

[Roadkill]

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Even the Scrow seems to have just thin enough of a torso to see a similar effect...There seems to be a common denominator here...

Tall and thin >>> short and wide.

[Kain Demos]

Excessive Paranoia, on 10 August 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Dismissing the hitbox issue because they are also hard to hit due to model size would be a mistake. Its clear that directed fire on a stationary, shut down, ACH can, and often will, fail to fully register, even for single point of contact weapons like gauss rifles or IS AC's.

This is all 'mechs though, it is an MWO thing. On Terra Therma once a Kit Fox shut down right in front of my Dire Wolf on the ramp and I PPC/Gaussed him and only my Gauss hit while I saw my PPCs fly through him.

I think by now the point has been made that no 'mech has "magic black hole hitboxes".

[FupDup]

Kain Demos, on 10 August 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

This is all 'mechs though, it is an MWO thing. On Terra Therma once a Kit Fox shut down right in front of my Dire Wolf on the ramp and I PPC/Gaussed him and only my Gauss hit while I saw my PPCs fly through him.

I think by now the point has been made that no 'mech has "magic black hole hitboxes".

KITFOX HITBOXES BROKEN PLS FIX NAO

[Excessive Paranoia]

Roadkill, on 10 August 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

This is true for every Mech in the game. People just don't pay attention as much when it happens while shooting at a Dire Wolf because the DW has so much armor anyway. You don't expect a single shot to core the Mech, so you don't notice when it doesn't register.

Lights, and the ACH, are no different than any other Mech when it comes to bad hit registration.

I'll repeat - I'm not having any more trouble killing ACHs than Spiders or Firestarters or even Commandos. And mine sure dies plenty quickly when someone comes after me. You're just seeing a crap-ton of them out there right now so it seems like they're much more buggy. They're not. As soon as the newness wears off the Light queue will be back down below 10% like it usually is.

And yet if I let my FS9 shutdown with someone shooting at me, there is a 90% chance that my match is over. Not so with the ACH, either because your shots aren't going to register, or because its got so much durability that you can't wipe it out with an alpha the way you can a FS9.

And calling the same problem for every mech in the game is patently false. Sure hitreg is spotty at best across the board, but if I shoot an alpha into a DWF's bright red leg, 10 times out of 10 that leg is gone, something that can't be said about the ACH, at least from personal experience.

[Excessive Paranoia]

Kain Demos, on 10 August 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

This is all 'mechs though, it is an MWO thing. On Terra Therma once a Kit Fox shut down right in front of my Dire Wolf on the ramp and I PPC/Gaussed him and only my Gauss hit while I saw my PPCs fly through him.

I think by now the point has been made that no 'mech has "magic black hole hitboxes".

Hitreg and hitbox issues go hand in hand. If a mech has poorly defined hitboxes, you're just that much more likely to see exacerbated hitreg issues. You can't claim one doesn't exist simply because the other does.

Edited by Excessive Paranoia, 10 August 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Roadkill]

Excessive Paranoia, on 10 August 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

And yet if I let my FS9 shutdown with someone shooting at me, there is a 90% chance that my match is over. Not so with the ACH, either because your shots aren't going to register, or because its got so much durability that you can't wipe it out with an alpha the way you can a FS9.

And calling the same problem for every mech in the game is patently false. Sure hitreg is spotty at best across the board, but if I shoot an alpha into a DWF's bright red leg, 10 times out of 10 that leg is gone, something that can't be said about the ACH, at least from personal experience.

Well my personal experience both with and against the ACH is very different than yours.

ACH shuts down and stops? It dies pretty much instantly in my games, whether I'm shooting at it or being shot at. They're no more "tanky" than the Firestarter, Spider, or even the Commando or LoLcust. 99% of the time the problem isn't hit reg, it's pilot aim.

Sure, occasionally a shot will fail to register, but no more often than it happens on every other Mech. Most of the whining going on right now is due to bad aim, not actual hit reg failures.

Excessive Paranoia, on 10 August 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Hitreg and hitbox issues go hand in hand. If a mech has poorly defined hitboxes, you're just that much more likely to imagine that you're seeing exacerbated hitreg issues.

FTFY.