1017 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

kay? That really wasn't the point. No one doubts that you think you fought a few 12-mans (though we have no way to verify server-side if they were all grouped up or not). You just don't seem to realize that your experiences are utterly insignificant.

There are not so few players in this game, despite whatever perceptions the forum community seems to have to the contrary, that your individual experiences are either representative of or indicative of the state of the game as a whole.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 16 August 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Deathlike]

I would like to mention something else.. regarding builds.

In CW, I would like to think people bring their best builds (meta or non-meta)... not some build that people would universally think "what is this disaster?". Even then, you'd still have to prove on a consistent basis that you are productive and useful to the team.

It's one thing to take a meta build.. it's another thing to not understand how to use it, or taking some sub-standard build and making the most out of it.

It's ideal to be synergistic build wise (things that comp teams tend to lean towards) instead of dependent on someone else to succeed (aka "hold locks please"). The thing about people not being effective is when it clearly shows up on the scoreboard (people don't take your score seriously though when you run LRMs) and many times you can point to the scoreboard to see what happened. Occasionally, the scores are close, but obviously the difference between success and failure could just be so much spread damage instead of focus fire. These are things vital to functioning winning teams.


I don't really expect new players to figure this out overnight, but refusing to take advice or feedback for "self improvement" often leads to inconsistent play... or consistent mediocrity (or worse).

Most importantly.. if you DO realize you're in sub-optimal situation (mech or build).. you honestly give up the right to complain how the better options are OP.. because most of the time, you are intentionally gimping yourself and noone forced you into said handicap.

[Uncle Totty]

Deathlike, on 16 August 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

I would like to mention something else.. regarding builds.

In CW, I would like to think people bring their best builds (meta or non-meta)... not some build that people would universally think "what is this disaster?". Even then, you'd still have to prove on a consistent basis that you are productive and useful to the team.

It's one thing to take a meta build.. it's another thing to not understand how to use it, or taking some sub-standard build and making the most out of it.

It's ideal to be synergistic build wise (things that comp teams tend to lean towards) instead of dependent on someone else to succeed (aka "hold locks please"). The thing about people not being effective is when it clearly shows up on the scoreboard (people don't take your score seriously though when you run LRMs) and many times you can point to the scoreboard to see what happened. Occasionally, the scores are close, but obviously the difference between success and failure could just be so much spread damage instead of focus fire. These are things vital to functioning winning teams.


I don't really expect new players to figure this out overnight, but refusing to take advice or feedback for "self improvement" often leads to inconsistent play... or consistent mediocrity (or worse).

Most importantly.. if you DO realize you're in sub-optimal situation (mech or build).. you honestly give up the right to complain how the better options are OP.. because most of the time, you are intentionally gimping yourself and noone forced you into said handicap.

THIS is what I strive for. It is one thing to do well in a all mighty meta build, but to hold you own against then in what they call trash...

[Armando]

Vlad Ward, on 16 August 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

kay? That really wasn't the point. No one doubts that you think you fought a few 12-mans (though we have no way to verify server-side if they were all grouped up or not). You just don't seem to realize that your experiences are utterly insignificant.

There are not so few players in this game, despite whatever perceptions the forum community seems to have to the contrary, that your individual experiences are either representative of or indicative of the state of the game as a whole.

While I don't disagree that individual experience does not necessarily represent or indicative of the state of the game as a whole, some are more experienced than others...

> 100 matches: You still have 'no clue' (nor should anyone will <100 matches have a clue IMHO).

101 - 500 drops: You have moved from clueless to crawling, still not concept of the game as a whole.

501-1,000 drops: You have moved from crawling to walking, your understanding, like your ability to 'stand' is solid, but far from complete.

1,001-5,000 drops: You are no longer a rookie but a seasoned vet who has completed a tour and signed up for more. Your understanding of who's who and what's what is solid but you still have 'new' experiences on occasion.

5,001-10,000 drops: You have seen most of what is to be seen....you have been the hammer, you have been the nail, you came...you saw....you kicked ass and got ass kicked.

10,001 - 20,000 drops: Not many surprises left, you have been there done that. By this time you should have a CLEAR understanding of what this game is, how it works....you can look at the drop screen and be able to predict with accuracy the outcome of the match.

20,001+ drops: NO surprises left, You can look at the CW queue and know how many minutes it will take to get a drop on a planet simply from the queue numbers, you know who you will face and have a fairly accurate understanding if the game will be a win or a loss BEFORE you ever see the drop screen in most CW matches.

Not saying there are a ton of players with over 20K recorded drops, but there are more of them than you would think...In most cases they know the game as well as, if not better than, the people who developed the game.

Edited by Armando, 16 August 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[oldradagast]

Why would any solo player WANT to play CW in its current mode?

And why is the first solution to every CW problem around here "So and so people should be forbidden from playing CW!"

The problem is that CW is a dull, unbalanced trainwreck of a game mode with full teams in meta-mechs seal-clubbing their way through random PUG's and Casuals who - wrongly - thought that "Community Warfare" would have some aspects of a community to it. Instead, they find a mindless slaughter, filled with "ggclose" and "why are you rotten PUG's even playing?" So, they leave, giving us the ghost town we have today.

So, no, forbidding MORE people from playing CW is not the answer. Instead, fix the dang game mode so people other than high-level 12-mans have some reason to play it. That being said, if somebody doesn't want to be part of a team, they should stay out of CW - and MWO - entirely.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 August 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Armando]

oldradagast, on 16 August 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

Why would any solo player WANT to play CW in its current mode?

And why is the first solution to every CW problem around here "So and so people should be forbidden from playing CW!"

The problem is that CW is a dull, unbalanced trainwreck of a game mode with full teams in meta-mechs seal-clubbing their way through random PUG's and Casuals who - wrongly - thought that "Community Warfare" would have some aspects of a community to it. Instead, they find a mindless slaughter, filled with "ggclose" and "why are you rotten PUG's even playing?" So, they leave, giving us the ghost town we have today.

So, no, forbidding MORE people from playing CW is not the answer. Instead, fix the dang game mode so people other than high-level 12-mans have some reason to play it. That being said, if somebody doesn't want to be part of a team, they should stay out of CW - and MWO - entirely.

Don't get it twisted, I would LOVE for everyone to do what they want, when they want, how they want with no consequences or repercussions for 23 other players....but what I want, and what PGI has actually MADE are far from the same thing.

Also, I don't want ANYONE to be excluded for any part of the game....I DO WANT PGI to ensure that all payers have a clear understanding of what they are getting into when they queue up for CW not only for themselves, but their teammates as well, and that everyone is prepared to play community warfare as part of MWO community.

Once PGI does this, no one will ever queue solo for community warfare again becaues they have the tools / resources they need to be a part of the community (even if they are not in a group when they launch).
_______________________________________________
Let me give you an example of a tool that every player should have, but PGI has not developed (yet)....

...Faction Chat available from ALL screens in UI. (Right now you can only see faction chat if you are in either the Social or Faction windows.)

Players don't have the tools and resources needed to play community warfare as a member of the community. It is not their fault. They have use the forums and HUNT for a unit or a faction hub if they want any hope of participating as a member of a unit or faction because there is no in game way to do it.

Edited by Armando, 16 August 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Cptn Goodvibes Pig of Steel]

Armando, on 16 August 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Don't get it twisted, I would LOVE for everyone to do what they want, when they want, how they want with no consequences or repercussions for 23 other players....but what I want, and what PGI has actually MADE are far from the same thing.

Also, I don't want ANYONE to be excluded for any part of the game....I DO WANT PGI to ensure that all payers have a clear understanding of what they are getting into when they queue up for CW not only for themselves, but their teammates as well, and that everyone is prepared to play community warfare as part of MWO community.

Once PGI does this, no one will ever queue solo for community warfare again becaues they have the tools / resources they need to be a part of the community (even if they are not in a group when they launch).
_______________________________________________
Let me give you an example of a tool that every player should have, but PGI has not developed (yet)....

...Faction Chat available from ALL screens in UI. (Right now you can only see faction chat if you are in either the Social or Faction windows.)

Players don't have the tools and resources needed to play community warfare as a member of the community. It is not their fault. They have use the forums and HUNT for a unit or a faction hub if they want any hope of participating as a member of a unit or faction because there is no in game way to do it.

Agreed and until that time when PGI gets its act together or that the existing resources are used properly then all solo Pug drops into CW should be actively discouraged by the community. It also follows that any requests for solo Pugs to join up or persist with CW is a very disingenuos thing to do until that time. Keep up the good work Armando, you and the other fellas are doing an excellent job on the forums. You have your game mode. Together, we'll soon dissuade that solo pug "riff raff" from participating in CW and turn it into the ghost town that it clearly deserves in its present form.

[IraqiWalker]

Vlad Ward, on 16 August 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

inb4 literally everyone on these boards freaks the **** out about tryhard millennial teenagers from steam doping on ritalin because that's the only way a 50 year old man could lose at an FPS.

Also Mechlab is 50% of any Mechwarrior game. There is no point in playing if you can't use custom robots. If one person's Mech happens to be ******** than another, then that is the nature of the beast.

Actually, that would be better design skills.

[50 50]

I can see the point you are trying to make there.
It's really about saying solo players should not be dropping solo.
They need to form a group.
So it's not a question or argument about unit sizes or any of that.
Players need to be in a minimum group of 4 (for example) before they can drop in CW.
That and the trial mechs.

Personally I feel the solution is with the factions and the structure there, though the style of the actual CW battles could use some variation as well.
Joining a big unit so you can associate with more players, drop in larger numbers and get that co-ordination happening is all good, but those players who don't want to join a unit or even form a group using any of the tools available are the ones I believe you are referring to.
Lets call them casual players that just want to jump in, have a few games and go again.
There are also the beginners who see the Faction tab, check out the map and all the points of conflict and want to have a go at it.

Firstly then, I agree with restricting the drop decks so trial mechs cannot be selected.
This would prevent brand new players from dropping into a mode until they have built up more skill, acquired more mechs and started to get the hang of the game.
There is an argument against this however so there could be the possibility to have a mode where only trial mechs can be used. Perhaps only available to cadets.

The next part is getting players into groups so even casual players can jump in, have a quick match or two and at least consistently drop with the same players so the co-ordination and social interaction builds.
For this I would suggest that PGI set up some standing armies in each of the factions. When players join a faction, they are placed into a Battalion within that faction based on their ELO as taken from the regular drops. An early post in this topic mentioned something like this.
For example:
A player joins Davion and due to their ELO rating are placed in the 4th Battalion.
When there is a battle over a planet that involves Davion, the 4th is automatically assigned to that planet and all players who are assigned to that Battalion will receive the call to arms automatically grouping them together into companies for the battles.
You get a nice little message when you join the faction to say: "You have been assigned to the Davion 4th Battalion"
Then once your ELO hits the next tier you get a nice little message to say: "You have been re-assigned to the Davion 3rd Battalion" etc

This would have the desired effect of:

• Getting players into a group for the matches all of whom are in the same faction.
  
• By using the player's ELO from regular drops you group players of the same skill level together.
  
• By having designated faction Battalions relating to ELO tiers the game can pit groups of players against each other for more even and competitive battles. This could be with a deviation of +1/-1 so there is a bit of variety.
  
• Having the same players group together more regularly will enable the social side to develop as players start to recognise each other.

There are a few other mechanics to put in around this sort of idea, particularly when you think about loyalist units who join a faction and also already having formed a group before you ready up for a drop or respond to a call to arms.
The functionality behind mercenary units is a different issue but can effectively have a similar function for matching players.
Some sort of average ELO from the players in the group.
This does of course require that there are enough players participating in CW to enable the match maker to function.

I believe there are lots of solutions and it will just take time to get there.

[CruiseMissileCowboy]

Lols, PGI doesn't give a crap.
I just checked out a CW match - 12 man -MS- team versus some mix and match, the first wave score is 0 to 13, they killed us and lost nothing. After that, they just long range spawn camped our team to death.
Score was 1 to 25 when we got our first kill.

PGI has no plans to change this mess any time soon. Most players have shelved MWO and will check it out again next year

[Vlad Ward]

Nathan K, on 16 August 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

THIS is what I strive for. It is one thing to do well in a all mighty meta build, but to hold you own against then in what they call trash...

This. I don't get this. Is it really that boring to be good at mech design? Do so many people really think they're the Inigo Montoya of Big Stompy Robots, driven to fighting with their left hands because doing their best is boring?

No. I don't think that's it. I think you're a product of the internet age, incapable of doing your best because you're petrified with fright at the possibility that you could run a fully kitted out, top tier meta mech and still get your ass kicked (and therefore will get made fun of by all the other faceless usernames on the interwebs, I guess?).

As long as you're using LRMs or some other trash tier nonsense, it's not really your fault if you lose. And hey, if you win, you won using garbage, so clearly you must be 10x more awesome than the other guy who may or may not have also been using garbage.

This is obviously the safest route for people whose crippling insecurity prevents them from taking chances while playing under an alias in online robot fighting video games

Edited by Vlad Ward, 16 August 2015 - 08:14 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Armando, on 16 August 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

Not saying there are a ton of players with over 20K recorded drops, but there are more of them than you would think...In most cases they know the game as well as, if not better than, the people who developed the game.

Bigger sample size = good. This is true.

But what variables are being controlled? Is your sample true random? There are a million different things that distort player-collected data.

So I can assure you, no single player has access to even a fraction of the insight that PGI's data analytics provide them. And no single Unit has enough nerds to collect real data to gain access to some of that insight.

For all the Mechwarrior community's harping about being a smart, science-y group of gamers, the closest the average MWO gamer has come to a science classroom is the Myomer Bundle page on Sarna.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 16 August 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Armando]

Draughluin, on 16 August 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Agreed and until that time when PGI gets its act together or that the existing resources are used properly then all solo Pug drops into CW should be actively discouraged by the community be made aware that they are NOT dropping 'solo' and are in fact ALWAYS part of a team.

It also follows that any requests for solo Pugs to join up or persist with CW is a very disingenuous thing to do until that time if they do so with a 'I am dropping solo' mindset.

Keep up the good work Armando, you and the other fellas are doing an excellent job on the forums. You have your game mode. Together, we'll soon dissuade that enlighten the solo pug "riff raff" from participating in CW, LIKE THEY ARE PLAYING SOLO and turn it into the ghost town that it clearly deserves in its present form so all solo players realize they are NEVER solo, and start playing as PUGs (pick-up-guys/gals in a pick-up-group).

Fixed that so it is more accurate to the point of the thread (removed PUG's from the post because they are not the real issue). Thank you for your input, to is genuinely appreciated.

Edited by Armando, 16 August 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[wanderer]

Vlad Ward, on 16 August 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

As long as you're using LRMs or some other trash tier nonsense, it's not really your fault if you lose. And hey, if you win, you won using garbage, so clearly you must be 10x more awesome than the other guy who may or may not have also been using garbage.

That entire classes of weapons are trash tier should be a sign that it's screwed up from the get-go, but this is CW. You either are organized (in which case you will be guided to better builds or ejected for failing to keep up), or you're solo rabble.

CW has always been about who can field the better organized unit- and organized units field better builds on average than solo rabble. Can you be solo in a good build? Of course. You're still rabble, because Derpatron over yonder decided to bring his LRM Locusts.

Rabble will inevitably fold vs. organized units. That's pretty much a law of warfare, even sci-fi warfare with giant robots.

[Lily from animove]

oldradagast, on 16 August 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

Why would any solo player WANT to play CW in its current mode?

And why is the first solution to every CW problem around here "So and so people should be forbidden from playing CW!"

The problem is that CW is a dull, unbalanced trainwreck of a game mode with full teams in meta-mechs seal-clubbing their way through random PUG's and Casuals who - wrongly - thought that "Community Warfare" would have some aspects of a community to it. Instead, they find a mindless slaughter, filled with "ggclose" and "why are you rotten PUG's even playing?" So, they leave, giving us the ghost town we have today.

So, no, forbidding MORE people from playing CW is not the answer. Instead, fix the dang game mode so people other than high-level 12-mans have some reason to play it. That being said, if somebody doesn't want to be part of a team, they should stay out of CW - and MWO - entirely.

As a good soloplayer you still can earn a lot in the matches, especially when you go for loyality points. because in a full unit of good players, mostly goal oriented playsytle there may be not much loyalitly points to gather when they rush objectives.

Further, CW matches are still more fun than the regular pug game, just less rewarding in cbills and such by earning/time.

The questionis what did Solo palyers expected? CW is is a RvR like gamestyle, it is where people band together and will play their best. You have to go there wit the best you have, and most likely a metamech as well.. Yes t would be nice if we had more working mech variety, but such a bbalance is hard to achive due to how TT designed mechs. And if you can not play the metamech properly, you should lern it before coming to CW. And even if you are good in a non meta mech, this mehc will be inferior by nature. (otheriwse it would be part of the developed meta). which emans even if you cna play it good, you are still gimped in comparison to others.

Well there is nothing wrong, to brng something gimped not maxed if you like to, but then do not rant about not being able to win. You can't bring a bicycle to th Indy 500 and expect to win, so don't rant when you see the result.

the 12 man premades play CW as intende,d and nearly every faction has a unit dropping with non unit members just ask them and group up with them.

[H I A S]

Quote

As a good soloplayer you still can earn a lot in the matches, especially when you go for loyality points. because in a full unit of good players, mostly goal oriented playsytle there may be not much loyalitly points to gather when they rush objectives.

A Unit full of good Players will allways kill all 48 Mechs and then go for the Objectives. They will never rush. The average Damage is 1200-1400 across the Board.

[Uncle Totty]

Vlad Ward, on 16 August 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

This. I don't get this. Is it really that boring to be good at mech design? Do so many people really think they're the Inigo Montoya of Big Stompy Robots, driven to fighting with their left hands because doing their best is boring?

No. I don't think that's it. I think you're a product of the internet age, incapable of doing your best because you're petrified with fright at the possibility that you could run a fully kitted out, top tier meta mech and still get your ass kicked (and therefore will get made fun of by all the other faceless usernames on the interwebs, I guess?).

As long as you're using LRMs or some other trash tier nonsense, it's not really your fault if you lose. And hey, if you win, you won using garbage, so clearly you must be 10x more awesome than the other guy who may or may not have also been using garbage.

This is obviously the safest route for people whose crippling insecurity prevents them from taking chances while playing under an alias in online robot fighting video games

Really? REALLY? If you just copy mech designs others are using then you are not "good at mech design" because YOU do not design them. (To think, all this thread eating BS is do to me finding ways where a pair of LRM 5s can be useful.)

Also, "still get my ass kicked"? What part of "I kill metas for fun" do you not understand? If you feel you HAVE to have metas to do well then who really sucks here?

[BSK]

HiasRGB, on 17 August 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

A Unit full of good Players will allways kill all 48 Mechs and then go for the Objectives. They will never rush. The average Damage is 1200-1400 across the Board.

Uhm, no. How would you know, your unit doesn't play CW. If a unit wants to conquer a planet, and a unit dropping in a 12 man implies right that, then you go for fast attack matches. Because in the following counter attack you will always have one player hiding with his light mech.

Conquering a planet takes 13 matches for 7 slots and you have 7 hours 20 minutes. You don't want to go for more than 6 hours with your 12 man if you don't have to ..

[Armando]

BSK, on 17 August 2015 - 01:35 AM, said:

Uhm, no. How would you know, your unit doesn't play CW. If a unit wants to conquer a planet, and a unit dropping in a 12 man implies right that, then you go for fast attack matches. Because in the following counter attack you will always have one player hiding with his light mech.

Conquering a planet takes 13 matches for 7 slots and you have 7 hours 20 minutes. You don't want to go for more than 6 hours with your 12 man if you don't have to ..

The answer to the question of 'go for the dunk or farm it out?' depends on the situation...if a faction still need 3 wins in 40 minutes then the answer is 'go for the dunk' (we need wins FAST).....if cease fire started 3 minutes after your drops starts then the answer is 'farm it out' (Time no longer matters....get the most c-bills possible).

Much like during the individual drops...situational awareness of the overall war for the planet is in most cases the difference between a win / loss during a close game.

Edited by Armando, 17 August 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Armando]

Nathan K, on 17 August 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

Really? REALLY? If you just copy mech designs others are using then you are not "good at mech design" because YOU do not design them. (To think, all this thread eating BS is do to me finding ways where a pair of LRM 5s can be useful.)

Also, "still get my ass kicked"? What part of "I kill metas for fun" do you not understand? If you feel you HAVE to have metas to do well then who really sucks here?

Outside of the first three days a new chassis is released, any load out you will ever 'create' someone else has already ran. so the idea that 'your' load out is really some special little snowflake is silly.

Good pilots can recognize what works (viable mech that 'solo/rambo' players dismiss as 'meta'), while the "uninformed" pilots (people who believe they ever drop solo) run LRMs and expect teammates to present / use UAVs / tag / NARC so they never have to show their face to the enemy....or running some other garbage load out that they think makes them cool / edgy (IR sO cOoL cUz IB rUnIn nOn-m3ta m3cKs).

Great pilots not only know what mech to load out, and how to load it out, as well as how to use it...but also realize they are part of a team, ACT like they are part of a team.

You can run the top of the line meta mech, but if you play like you have no teammates you are still steaming garbage. If you run garbage mechs AND you play like you have no teammates....you are THE problem with the game...period, end of story....and nothing PGI can ever do will 'save' you from yourself, you are and always will be FUBAR in the eyes of anyone who ever drops with you and knows better.

Now tell us again how running you running around in garbage mechs like you have no teammates is how the game is meant to be played Nathan K....that joke never gets old.

No joke: I hope you don't enjoy playing the victim in real life but instead take some personal responsibility for how your life turns out, unlike the victim mentality (teamwork is OP, nerf teamwork) you like to wear so well in the MWO forums.

*** Also no joke, and likely the most important and honest thing I will ever tell you Nathan K:***

I tell you these things because I like you, your post make for wonderful 'devil's advocate' and been very helpful for me to understand what I was trying to say much better now than when I started this thread...for this reason alone you can pull less than 10 damage, 0 kills, 0 assists every time we drop together and I will ALWAYS try my absolute HARDEST to put the hammer down on 12 enemy nails for YOU.

Edited by Armando, 17 August 2015 - 04:15 AM.