1017 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

MaxFool, on 15 August 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

That data is simply old. That's why I said "I wonder when was the last time you played CW". You think really think CW demographics is the same as it was two months ago, if that data was fresh even then? You are not in touch with reality with that 1% 12-man crap.

I take screenshots of every drop I make. I just counted my CW drops from this week. 19 drops, I was defending each time (as Ghost Bear can't launch attacks these days). Counting biggest groups from attacker side, 9 times 12-man, 1x11, 1x10, 1x9, 2x8, 2x6, 2x5, 1x3. Just over 50% the attacker had 12-man, and 84% of times 8-man or bigger.

From defender side that same statistic was 1x6, 3x4, 4x3, 5x2, 6x1.

Even if CW would look hugely different from IS side (I of course have only my own current statistic from clans side, a month long contract just ended and this data was only from this week cause I wanted it fresh), and even if my sample was somehow totally unusual from clan side, it can't be that different from thruth that 1% 12-man crap would be somehow in the neighborhood of todays reality.

Btw, wins were only 10-9 on IS favor. This was not a rant about unfair matches, this was a rant about repeating old statistics everywhere that has nothing to do with reality anymore.

I've played about 30 matches in the last week. I don't recall a single 12man enemy, at least not with the same tag.I've been part of a few 12man groups though not all from the same unit.

So is my anecdotal experience more important than yours? The reality is that anecdotal experience is of minimal use.

[MaxFool]

MischiefSC, on 15 August 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

I've played about 30 matches in the last week. I don't recall a single 12man enemy, at least not with the same tag.I've been part of a few 12man groups though not all from the same unit.

So is my anecdotal experience more important than yours? The reality is that anecdotal experience is of minimal use.

If I take screenshots of every drop and do the count, it's not just anecdotal evidence anymore. For 1% to be true, my 9 out of 19 12-mans would have to be countered by 46 people getting 0 out of 19. And you just said yourself that you drop in 12-mans in CW.

And I bet you were mostly attacking. It's the attacking teams that get 12-mans, and defensive teams that get 12 solos.

Edited by MaxFool, 15 August 2015 - 08:07 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

MaxFool, on 15 August 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

If I take screenshots of every drop and do the count, it's not just anecdotal evidence anymore. For 1% to be true, my 9 out of 19 12-mans would have to be countered by 46 people getting 0 out of 19. And you just said yourself that you drop in 12-mans in CW.

Something something sample size, controlled variables, server-side confirmation. Yes, the plural of anecdote is data. But that doesn't make it good data.

Edit: I think the point MSC is trying to make is that your complaint is an old one. An ancient one. Something people have been moaning about since closed beta.

"Oh teh noes, PGI, every single game I play is against a 12-man and they stomp me. It's not fair fix it plox."

PGI has released group data a half dozen times already. Every time, and I mean every. single. time. groups have always made up an extremely small portion of the game population. 12-mans have never been involved in more than 1~2% of games played. Ever.

That hasn't stopped people like you from swearing up, down, and backwards that they fought ten million 12-mans every day for a week.

So yes, your claims are going to get dismissed pretty quickly, because pugs are the underhive. They are the swarm. They. Are. Batman (Batmen? Batpeople? Batman-tachi). And they make up the exceedingly vast majority of all games played, CW or otherwise.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 15 August 2015 - 08:21 PM.

[Ihasa]

Nathan K, on 15 August 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

*gasp* Oh how could I be so blind. Here I was thinking games are played for something as petty as fun. Now I know that the hole point of playing games is to win, and to prove that only I matter.

Thanks guys, you have really opened up my eyes. (*lol* rimes)

*whole
*rhymes

[ApolloKaras]

MischiefSC, on 15 August 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

I've played about 30 matches in the last week. I don't recall a single 12man enemy, at least not with the same tag.I've been part of a few 12man groups though not all from the same unit.

So is my anecdotal experience more important than yours? The reality is that anecdotal experience is of minimal use.

I can tell you in Stranamechty we have several units on the same comm, Smoke Adders, Black Sheep Mercs, Restless Adders -SC-, the list goes on. Those units have played quite a bit together and they play well together. I still view that as the same unit more or less. We drop constantly together in CW its fun stuff.

Edited by Saxie, 15 August 2015 - 09:13 PM.

[Armando]

http://imgur.com/r/195/XJKSGfo

Edited because Saxie won't let me have a little fun.

Edited by Armando, 15 August 2015 - 09:27 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

Armando, on 15 August 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

....couldn't blow your nose.

Be nice lol.

EDIT: You too Aresye lol

Edited by Saxie, 15 August 2015 - 09:16 PM.

[Aresye]

Nathan K, on 15 August 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

*gasp* Oh how could I be so blind. Here I was thinking games are played for something as petty as fun. Now I know that the whole point of playing games is to win, and to prove that only I matter.

Thanks guys, you have really opened up my eyes. (*lol* rhymes)

You're also playing a TEAM game, where you're part of a TEAM, and I'm willing to bet that the majority of those players don't enjoy losing, so what you're essentially saying is that your fun takes priority over the 11 other players on your side. If this was a deathmatch free for all then nobody would care what special snowflake build you wish to bring.

Do the game a favor and stick with solo queue. At least there (despite the fact it's still a team game mode) people expect to see players running terrible builds and doing their own thing. You'll fit right in.

[Armando]

Saxie, on 15 August 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

Be nice lol.

What... what .. what ?

Oh....alright. Why do you always have to take the fun out of everything Saxie? Edited my post, cuz nothing positive are relevant to conversation.....but Aresye is at least relevant so I think he'll be alright.

Edited by Armando, 15 August 2015 - 10:08 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

Armando, on 15 August 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

What... what .. what ?

Oh....alright. Why do you always have to that the fun out of everything Saxie?

http://imgur.com/r/195/XJKSGfo

lol. I just dont want to see people put in time out.

[HellAvenger]

you wonder why CW is dead? look at this thread. Have fun with few clans, if CW dont bring in money & players you can be sure PGI will refocus its resource. It is a business after all.

Edited by HellAvenger, 15 August 2015 - 11:26 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

HellAvenger, on 15 August 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

you wonder why CW is dead? look at this thread. Have fun with few clans, if CW dont bring in money & players you can be sure PGI will refocus its resource. It is a business after all.

CW isn't in trouble because of a forum thread in an echo chamber. It ultimately falls on PGI

[ApolloKaras]

Kin3ticX, on 16 August 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

CW isn't in trouble because of a forum thread in an echo chamber. It ultimately falls on PGI

Im not going to far as to say its dead... not yet. There is an event going on. There was suggestion in another thread just have a Champion CW weekend - of course you would have to fix the 'stock' clan mech thing.

[Chagatay]

Aresye Kerensky, on 15 August 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

You're also playing a TEAM game, where you're part of a TEAM, and I'm willing to bet that the majority of those players don't enjoy losing, so what you're essentially saying is that your fun takes priority over the 11 other players on your side. If this was a deathmatch free for all then nobody would care what special snowflake build you wish to bring.

Do the game a favor and stick with solo queue. At least there (despite the fact it's still a team game mode) people expect to see players running terrible builds and doing their own thing. You'll fit right in.

Actually, I am fine with losing. I believe the vast majority just want good fights (win or lose). I rank entertainment value in the following order:

1. Close hard fought match but we LOSE*.
2. Close hard fought match and we win**
3. Average CW game 40ishv28 etc (win or lose but some good fighting)
4. Stomp on the delivering end.
5. Stomp on the receiving end.

*Darn it, I zigged instead of zagged. I didn't carry harder enough.
** Down to the wire killing 2-3 mechs when we are behind the board for a one win in a 4X-4X deathmatch or body blocked omega to prevent its destruction at the last second and win by objective in counterattack (rare) or get that last second shot on omega before the buzzer.

I also usually run not meta approved chassis like Summoner (one of my favorites like a bigger Griffin (also one of my favorites)), Ice Ferret, Mist Lynx (fun as well). And my personal fun does take priority, if that means I run with a 12 flamer Nova so be it....(if only it weren't so damn wide that it doesn't work, damn you PGI). Still can have fun with the NARC Mist Lynx. I mean someone has to get our missile guys locks (so they can have fun too...see I am a team player).

Edited by Chagatay, 16 August 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Chagatay, on 16 August 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

Actually, I am fine with losing. I believe the vast majority just want good fights (win or lose). I rank entertainment value in the following order:

1. Close hard fought match but we LOSE*.
2. Close hard fought match and we win**
3. Average CW game 40ishv28 etc (win or lose but some good fighting)
4. Stomp on the delivering end.
5. Stomp on the receiving end.

There is a difference between loosing and have lost.

Those that have lost use that information and experience toward the next battle. They observe, learn, and adapt. They become better warriors from that lost battle.

Those that loose are the ones that do the same thing over and over, never learning anything, and place fault on everyone and everything that is not themselves.

The first player you want to play with. Will accept a loss so long as something is learned from it.

The second player you want to avoid. This one cannot accept loss. This is the players that cannot rise to any challenge but demands the bar lowered and everything changed to suit his usually solo-rambo playstyle.

[Armando]

I was just thinking....what if PGI actually made a solo mode (a REAL solo mode) for the game? A player would queue up solo, and actually be a team of 1... against 23 other teams of 1... death match style.

...then I realized that the 'solo player' would HATE that mode and never, EVER, queue for it, because when they lose (and they would lose a LOT) they would have no one to blame but themselves, and that is something 'solo players' will never, ever, do (take personal responsibility for their failures).

Please note the difference between 'solo players' and 'PUG' players.....PUGs know they are part of a team and ACT like they are part of a team, even when they queue up alone...while SOLOs think they are solo and ACT like they are solo, even though the reality is they are always part of a team.

Edited by Armando, 16 August 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Aresye]

Chagatay, on 16 August 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

I also usually run not meta approved chassis like Summoner (one of my favorites like a bigger Griffin (also one of my favorites)), Ice Ferret, Mist Lynx (fun as well). And my personal fun does take priority, if that means I run with a 12 flamer Nova so be it....(if only it weren't so damn wide that it doesn't work, damn you PGI). Still can have fun with the NARC Mist Lynx. I mean someone has to get our missile guys locks (so they can have fun too...see I am a team player).

I feel you are missing the point. You rank a stomp on the receiving end as the least fun, and part of what contributes to a horrible stomp like that is when you have too many players doing their own thing. One or two is fine. It's when you get the magical number of 11 solo players that ALL do their own thing where there's a problem.

I think that's one downside to the Clans. There's just too many ways to create a bad combination of weapons and hardpoints, whereas on the IS side, it's pretty hard to screw up a TDR-5SS or STK-4N.

[BSK]

Telmasa, on 14 August 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Not needing to talk to each other does not mean non-coordinated. I'm talking about players who are good enough at the game that they do not need to speak in order to coordinate, because they already pay attention to what's going on - they look at the minimap, they look around, they check the health of their teammates periodically, they shoot the same targets they see their teammates shooting - all of that is quite easy to figure out without the use of comms.

In fact, using comms can often be a detriment - a distraction with too many chatty players, or calling out the wrong or misleading information, or a "caller" who either too paranoid or too loosely aggressive, and so on.

Suffice it to say my experiences without comms have been leaps and bounds better in CW than with them. This includes being in random-"solo player" teams that repeatedly stomped all over 12-man premades, over and over and over again - a fact many of you seem to be forgetting.

Sure, there were A FEW premade 12 man teams that were better. Some of them we still held our own against; others elected to push right into the spawncamp and we all know how that goes.

But the vast majority were not up to that level, at all.

I said it before, I will say it again: wearing unit tags and using teamspeak does not make you better at the game. There is no tangible difference between grouped players and solo players, none whatsoever. It comes down to the individual players in question.

MWO isn't chess, not yet anyway. For the kind of thing you're talking about, we need a huge overhaul of the maps currently available, to be larger, broader, and open-er than the DOTA lanes we have now, not to mention the balance overhaul involving so many other factors affecting current 'mainstream' tactics.

Like other players here have pointed out, 'success' in current CW doesn't take alot, at all.

At some future date, after the balance overhaul, after the map overhauls, will there be room for that? Probably; will that mean that coordinated teams of individually good players will have that much more precedence over randomly-arranged teams of individually good players? Absolutely - though I still maintain that at a high enough level, communication is mostly a moot point, that seems to typically be the 1%, so it won't apply to most players once the game is opened up to be in the hands of the players as opposed to the map designers.

tl dr

[Sadist Cain]

Armando, on 15 August 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

@ Sadist Cain

I am the OP, I and I want to tell you that a FAILED HORRIBLY with my OP and didn't really 'say what I meant' until much deeper into the thread. (I know you don't like it when I use all caps to stress a point, but I hope you can agree that my use of caps in this case is justified)

With that said let me ask you a three questions...

1) Do you agree or disagree that every match that anyone can queue for in MWO is 12 real life players against 12 real life players?

2) Do you agree or disagree that if a player thinks they are dropping solo, acts like they are dropping solo, tells themselves and anyone who will listen they are dropping solo, that they are a 'solo player'?

3) Do you agree or disagree that the option of dropping in trial mechs makes community warfare less enjoyable for the teammates and enemies of the the players that chooses to do so?

No believe me I get the satire, the devils advocate, being deliberately inflammitory towards Forumlandia and all that good jazz. We're all just folk, the connotation of "Solo" isn't conducive to a team based game and a trial mech only queue would be brilliant for both new and old players alike and a fantastic place to learn imho.

No point in playing devils advocate without Jeebus, I'm just here on behalf of the underhive you elitist munchkin <3

Edited by Sadist Cain, 16 August 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Chagatay]

Aresye Kerensky, on 16 August 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

I feel you are missing the point. You rank a stomp on the receiving end as the least fun, and part of what contributes to a horrible stomp like that is when you have too many players doing their own thing. One or two is fine. It's when you get the magical number of 11 solo players that ALL do their own thing where there's a problem.

I think that's one downside to the Clans. There's just too many ways to create a bad combination of weapons and hardpoints, whereas on the IS side, it's pretty hard to screw up a TDR-5SS or STK-4N.

I feel you are missing the point. I play games for fun. If you don't well.....I feel sorry for you.