230 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

jss78, on 16 August 2015 - 02:11 AM, said:

Overall I think macros are a non-issue because (1) PGI explicitly alllows them, and (2) the consensus appears to be that they are not "breaking the game" anyway period.

FTFY.

[Mystere]

Mister D, on 16 August 2015 - 02:12 AM, said:

No its still cheating because at that point the macro is doing all the work.

Only reason you would defend it is because you're using one?

Quit being lazy.

Who said I use them?

And even if I do, THEY'RE ALLOWED.

And just to make things crystal clear, THEY'RE ALLOWED.

And just to reinforce a fact, THEY'RE ALLOWED.

And just in case you are still not getting it, THEY'RE ALLOWED.

[Cyborne Elemental]

LOL this guy.

Pushin dem buttonz!

See, now you're just making it fun.

Edited by Mister D, 16 August 2015 - 02:30 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Xetelian, on 16 August 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

Macros should be cheating and I don't care how cool your 30 button mouse with 10 DPI settings is, at some point you're no longer just augmenting you're breaking.

I've seen a 6 UAC5 DWF with a crazy macro drill people to pieces while avoiding the worst of the ghost heat.

Not that and Gauss charge up insta firing isn't already a huge advantage.

A 6 UAC5 Dire with chain macro generates more ghost heat than one that is alpha'd.

[Windsaw]

Considering that high alpha builds are far, far worse than chain fire macros I can't possibly call for a chainfire macro ban without first demaning a ban of high alpha builds or group fire in general.

[Jumping Gigolo]

I don't really care if my enemies are using macros. I cannot notice anything since they all just die the same.

[meteorol]

Don't see how UAC marcos have a use after the jam mechanic was changed.
You can't fire ACs faster than the refreshrate anyway. If anything, they gimp your damage output by spreading it even further.

The only mech where i "could" see macros be beneficial is a tripple gauss direwolf because it makes things a bit easier.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

I dont care if someone said, hey its allowed by PGI (hm, because they CANNOT HANDLE it).

I say, any form of macros = cheating. Its improving human reaction, and thus its advantage.

[TercieI]

El Bandito, on 15 August 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

You can just use the "use first/second consumable slot" key instead. Just put your strike consumable on the respective slot

That's true, but I've been using that macro since before the "slots" came in and prefer the hard mapping because in the heat of things I don't want to have to think about what's in what slot (and don't want to worry about it loading either). I know where strike/coolshot/UAV are and if the mech has them, it's consistent. I've actually unmapped the "slot" keys to reduce the visual clutter on my HUD a bit too.

[Kodyn]

Titannium, on 16 August 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

I dont care if someone said, hey its allowed by PGI (hm, because they CANNOT HANDLE it).

I say, any form of macros = cheating. Its improving human reaction, and thus its advantage.

Titannium, I don't think it's because they can't handle it, I'm fairly certain it's because they know that it doesn't actually confer any advantage.

None of the mouse macros actually improve your reaction time, the gauss ones tend to waste ammo and mess up the user's shots more than help, and the AC ones just used to avoid ghost heat(pretty much the only way to boat AC/2s at the time), or in the case of UACs, can help avoid jams, but not by any reliable enough amount to actually benefit the user in an unfair way.

Macros are an extremely common thing in online gaming, to the point where many games actually have macro toolkits included in the game UI itself now. I feel like MWO would even do that if they cared to bother, because that's just how common and harmless these macros are.

The only reason I don't use them myself? I don't feel like going through the work of setting them up. More work to set up than the benefit to me of using any, that's how little they matter or help.

[Escef]

Titannium, on 16 August 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

I dont care if someone said, hey its allowed by PGI (hm, because they CANNOT HANDLE it).

I say, any form of macros = cheating. Its improving human reaction, and thus its advantage.

Have you ever looked at just how fast human reaction can be?

[Damien Tokala]

PRESSING W IS CHEATING, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DODGE MY SHOTS

pressing the fire button is cheating! Having a mouse with more than 2 buttons is cheating! Turning your torso is cheating!

Do you hear how ridiculous you sound? I don't even use macro keys because I don't have them, but I have grouped weapons and a damn good sense of timing!

Get the **** over yourself, it's a button that makes pewpew, it doesn't alter how fast it fires or how much damage It does.

Again... Get over yourself, and stop crying like a 3 year old.

[oneproduct]

Everyone understands that PGI has said that macros are okay. The point of this thread is to discuss macros and whether or not PGI should consider changing their ruling.

Lets say you have a mech with 12 MLs. MLs have ghost heat at 6. Ideally you'd want to fire 6, wait 0.5 seconds then fire the other 6.

There are three outcomes:
1. You fire slightly before 0.5 seconds, in which case you literally kill yourself because of ghost heat.
2. You fire slightly after 0.5 seconds, in which case it takes you a longer period of time than necessary to deal your damage.
3. You fire after exactly 0.5 seconds, which is optimal.

#3 is essentially impossible for a human, and the closer you get to #3, the closer you get to killing yourself by accidentally doing #1.

[Damien Tokala]

Whatever weed you smoking, I'll take a hit of that, because if you pay attention to rhythm, and the little red bar, and those colored boxes on your reticle, you can pull it off juuuuust fine.

[Kodyn]

oneproduct, on 16 August 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

Everyone understands that PGI has said that macros are okay. The point of this thread is to discuss macros and whether or not PGI should consider changing their ruling.

Lets say you have a mech with 12 MLs. MLs have ghost heat at 6. Ideally you'd want to fire 6, wait 0.5 seconds then fire the other 6.

There are three outcomes:
1. You fire slightly before 0.5 seconds, in which case you literally kill yourself because of ghost heat.
2. You fire slightly after 0.5 seconds, in which case it takes you a longer period of time than necessary to deal your damage.
3. You fire after exactly 0.5 seconds, which is optimal.

#3 is essentially impossible for a human, and the closer you get to #3, the closer you get to killing yourself by accidentally doing #1.

You've clearly never been a chef, or a cook, or in any profession where you just have to time things in your head and get used to not thinking about it.

I think most of us non-macro users who use multiple weapon groups already have that .5 seconds so well embedded in our muscle memory that we can do it in our sleep. It seems complicated, and like it must be difficult when you look at it on paper, but in practice, it's just a firing cadence you get into.

And again, as has been mentioned, macros that fire stuff for you, like you're suggesting, or like the gauss one, actually confer a disadvantage because you can't stop the shot once you hit that button. If you fire half your weapons normally, then lose the target, you can hold off on that second shot, or let your gauss charge go. With a macro? you just wasted heat, ammo, etc.

It's not more efficient than human hands and eyes. People just want to think it is.

Edited by Kodyn, 16 August 2015 - 05:26 AM.

[oneproduct]

Go ahead and try something like this: http://www.humanbenc...ts/reactiontime
Post a video of you getting exactly 500ms 10 times in a row
If you ever get something even 1 ms below that, you die of ghost heat.

@Kodyn
I understand that you can get close to 0.5 seconds but the problem is if you have 0.49 seconds, you literally die from ghost heat, so making the tiniest of mistakes is fatal.

It is literally just a human limitation. I'm quite certain that there are a lot of people who can get 0.5 seconds within a small margin of error, but if the margin of error is on the side of less than 0.5 seconds, you die. If it's on the side of more than 0.5 seconds, you'll be outperformed by a macro.

Edited by oneproduct, 16 August 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[Damien Tokala]

As if such a miniscule amount of time ever made that much of a damn difference.

You sir, get a tinfoil hat, that is also a dunce hat.

Because no one in their right ******* mind will take a 12 med laser mech unless you're... Well... A dunce

[oneproduct]

It's not about whether someone or not actually makes a 12 ML mech, even though the nova prime is just that. It's about demonstrating situations in which macros allow you to gain an advantage.

And yes, because of ghost heat minuscule times makes a huge difference because if you get anything under 0.5 seconds you suffer ghost heat. It could be 4 PPCs fired in groups of 2 or 6 LLs fired in groups of 3 and the same problem occurs. 12 MLs was just an example.

For the 6 LLs (a top tier build for the stalker 4N) fired in groups of 3, if you get anything under 0.5 seconds it generates 78.9 heat instead of 42 heat. That is a real problem that macros allow you to avoid.

Edited by oneproduct, 16 August 2015 - 05:36 AM.

[Kodyn]

Yeah, you can mess up, I do it, I'm not saying we never do.

What I'm saying is that the advantage is so minimal, and in some cases not even an advantage, that you're actually better off not taking it.

I'd rather know I can mess up my own timing and heat than lose the choice of how and when to fire my weapons...as I said, once you start the macro, its going, so you end up with a lot of extra shots, which amounts to either too much heat or lost ammo anyway. I don't see either of those as a positive, and can achieve better results without the macro.

Of course there's human error, but there's also more control when it's an entirely organic interface.

[oneproduct]

Yea, I personally don't find it to be a huge issue, particularly since it is not realistically feasible to prevent people from using macros. I'm just arguing against macros because even though I don't think they're a huge problem, I still think it would be better not to have them.

The real problem I have is the fact that ghost heat activates in such a binary way. That's the only situation that I really find that macros really help. It just sucks that if you click after 0.49 seconds you can fry your mech.