230 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

If using macros is allowed bu PGI (and it is), then it isn't cheating BY DEFINITION. Period.

However, it is a crutch...

[oneproduct]

@Hotthedd
You're missing the point.

We know that PGI said it's okay, we're questioning whether or not that stance should change.

Laws can change, otherwise women wouldn't be able to vote.

[Damien Tokala]

One, this test does not carry any weight, as it is not a proper substitute for a mech with laser burn times.

Two, if you're dying from ghost heat as much as you claim to be, shut off your override.

Three, everyone has a rhythm for combat, some more than others. There are also some people who play that are actual wounded vets, or have some sort of ailment that has a negative effect on their hands, macros can allow them to play on a fair, even ground.

Then there's people who hardly have the time to sit and get good. So they use every little bit they can to make it easier, just to have fun.

And then you have the scum filled puss bag underhive of 3rd party program users, aimbotting and wall hack people who just want to troll the **** out of everyone.

You have to ask yourself, which is worse... Doing something that makes the mech perform under specifications, or doing something that wallhacks/aimbotting?

[Johnny Z]

They may make it against the rules some time. Other games have done it. I am not surprised so many are upset at the thought that macros may be considered cheating, some players need every advantage they can get and for some that includes scripts like macros.

Maybe some day 20 years from now I will need such crutches to play this game so I dont take offense to others needing such crutches.

[Hotthedd]

oneproduct, on 16 August 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

@Hotthedd
You're missing the point.

We know that PGI said it's okay, we're questioning whether or not that stance should change.

I get the point, but it isn't cheating. The OP is not asking for a change to the rules, he is stating that he thinks macros are cheating. I do not think that position is likely to change, nor do I believe PGI even HAS the resources to enforce any sort of macro ban whatsoever. I don't use them, I don't care for them, but if it isn't forbidden it is legal. I'm not here to tell other people how to have fun.

oneproduct, on 16 August 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Laws can change, otherwise women wouldn't be able to vote.

See what happens when you change the rules!

[oneproduct]

@Damien

All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge that a tiny bit of human error, 0.49 seconds instead of 0.5, can have severe, negative effects due to ghost heat being a game mechanic, and that the use of macros allows you to avoid this. My argument then stems from the point that this can potentially be seen as an unfair advantage. Whether or not it is unfair is not my decision.

Your arguments for allowing disabled people or people not willing to spend as much time learning to become good to use macros, which you refer to as something advantageous is another discussion. We don't allow athletes to take performance enhancing drugs for example, and we could draw a similarity between those and macros, which enhance your reaction times to the level of perfection when it comes to getting that 0.5 second timing right.

[Damien Tokala]

I don't see it as unfair, because to the few people that are capable of such timing, the mech is performing as intended.

If someone, hypothetically had the physical prowess to time it so perfectly, then the mech is... Still doing what it's capable of.

[oneproduct]

The problem is not for the people who can perform it correctly, because as you say they gain no advantage. The problem is the punishment for those who can't who will suffer ghost heat which puts them at a massive disadvantage that can be avoided through the use of macros.

To put it playfully, the advantage of macros is avoiding a disadvantage, not gaining an advantage.

But avoiding a disadvantage is an advantage.

Edited by oneproduct, 16 August 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[Damien Tokala]

All the more reason ghost heat is a ******** system.

For God's sake, we should be more angry at ghost heat, and less at macros

[oneproduct]

I can agree with you on that one.

But for so long as ghost heat does exist, to me that's a reason why macros can be considered unfair. The other things they do don't bother me so much.

[Kodyn]

Realistically, I could see PGI just making macros an actual part of the game before they get rid of them, for that very reason oneproduct.

They already did it with the cockpit glass..that used to be something that a lot of people achieved via the config files, so PGI just ended up making it an option. That'd be the best solution for creating an entirely fair playing field concerning macro use, since I'm fairly certain it would be impossible to prevent the use entirely, with the nature of macros.

(So I guess I have to eat my words from earlier when I said that PGI can, but doesn't care to deal with them..they probably can't, yet still don't care to.)

[L3mming2]

oneproduct, on 16 August 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

Everyone understands that PGI has said that macros are okay. The point of this thread is to discuss macros and whether or not PGI should consider changing their ruling.

Lets say you have a mech with 12 MLs. MLs have ghost heat at 6. Ideally you'd want to fire 6, wait 0.5 seconds then fire the other 6.

There are three outcomes:
1. You fire slightly before 0.5 seconds, in which case you literally kill yourself because of ghost heat.
2. You fire slightly after 0.5 seconds, in which case it takes you a longer period of time than necessary to deal your damage.
3. You fire after exactly 0.5 seconds, which is optimal.

#3 is essentially impossible for a human, and the closer you get to #3, the closer you get to killing yourself by accidentally doing #1.

jea it theory yes...
i have tested with macros to avoid GH and fire 6 / 0.5s / 6 i have even uped the time to 0.6s
as long as u stand still and dont use jj (in the traininggrounds) it works like a charm.

but dont try to use it wile you are running (ore even worse) using JJ then between 1/2 (0.5s) and 1/3 (for the 0.6s delay) of the times it will still triger GH and cook you...

the input delays might be perfect but MWO will mess this up... look at the rubberbanding and stuff ...

the funny thing is that only ppl who have actualy messed around with macros now

only usefull macro's (exept key binding)
- tag togle
- chainfire (doubletap) multiple uac's (the jamm chance douse not change in any way ore forme) but its so much cooler ==> RAMBO!!!

[Damien Tokala]

It's just one system. And most people are trained to watch their heat already.

My dire... 6 lbx5, three on mouse one, three on mouse two. Both set to chain fire. I click one after the other and hold it, it becomes an auto fire shotgun.

When that's not practical, I have all 6 set to mouse3 for alpha strike.

I've been accused of macros, but I'm just chain layering. It's a tactic that was meant to be in here as well, a grouping where you can set such builds like the Nova prime to chain fire sets of two or sets of 3.

But they were too damn lazy, and allowed macros as a substitute

[Mycrus]

DjPush, on 15 August 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

I know I am going to catch flack for this because macros are allowed in MWO. However, to me it is in the same catagory as a wall hack or aimbot. A program outside of MWO that allows players to play the game at a level not possible by any means other than a computer. A computer program is firing the weapon for you while all you do is hold the button down.

Here is an example:



Am I out of line with these feelings towards macros? I refuse to use them because I think it's fighting dirty. What do you guys think?

Ts3 = cheating then?

[sneeking]

If macro is wrong then half a brain and more than a two button mouse should be too....

[DjPush]

Hit the Deck, on 15 August 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

Brandon, are you the Executioner's pilot?

Nope

I was in the Warhawk

Edited by DjPush, 16 August 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[AEgg]

Macros can't do anything you can't do without them. They only offer an advantage when there's a fundamental problem in the games control scheme to begin with (in MWOs case, the fact that chain fire isn't customizeable). In our case, the lack of chainfire customization hardly matters, since using chainfire is a disadvantage almost all of the time anyway. It would be nice if PGI could implement it, though, let us choose how fast weapons in a group will fire when chainfired.

The only games that ban macros are games that are based on physical dexterity rather than on skill (primarily RTS and fighting games).

Fighting games, macros let you avoid memorizing dozens of button combos. Requiring people to memorize useless combinations serves absolutely no purpose other than making your game require a larger time investment before you can actually start playing it (well, that and appeasing people that want their games to work that way). Similarly, in RTS games, macros automate actions that exist exclusively to force players to have to click on more things (i.e. they automate actions that should have been automated to begin with, but weren't because that's what many players want). Some MMOs have the same problems, particularly with things like buff skills that should be passive but require reactivating every X seconds for no good reason.

[Fate 6]

I can run the game at 60fps, am I a cheater compared to someone who only runs at 30fps?

[Throat Punch]

I use a Naga mouse and a G710 keyboard, both programmed with macros. I have nerve damage in my left hand and often lose complete sensation in that hand and have to switch to my profiles on both devices that allows me to use 4 of the "G" keys on the keyboard mouse to control all my firing and consumables because they are the only buttons i can detect by feel without fat fingering my keyboard with my "dead" left hand and use the 1-12 keys on my mouse to control movement speed, zoom, armlock toggle etc. Without macroing things I wouldn't be able to play. So call it a cheat, or a crutch or whatever...just understand that some people need that "crutch" and im actually at a major disadvantage when i have to switch to playing that way.

Just my 2 c-bills.

[DjPush]

Damien Tokala, on 16 August 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

PRESSING W IS CHEATING, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DODGE MY SHOTS

pressing the fire button is cheating! Having a mouse with more than 2 buttons is cheating! Turning your torso is cheating!

Do you hear how ridiculous you sound? I don't even use macro keys because I don't have them, but I have grouped weapons and a damn good sense of timing!

Get the **** over yourself, it's a button that makes pewpew, it doesn't alter how fast it fires or how much damage It does.

Again... Get over yourself, and stop crying like a 3 year old.

Somebody hit a nerve LOL!