232 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Nightmare1, on 17 August 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

I just wish that some common sense would prevail.

This!!! I've been saying this for a long time now!!!

Agreed 100% but the "Common Sense" portion has to come from the Player base. That is currently not the case 99% of the time.

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 August 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Matthias Malthias, on 18 August 2015 - 12:02 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4115579

Start with reducing maximum heat capacity - baseline to be determined by playtesting. 30 seems acceptable, but 20 is probably guaranteed to enforce chainfiring.
Give SHS a role by increasing dissipation to 0.15-0.2 HPS or higher while also increasing heat capacity by a small amount (+1 heatcap)
Give DHS a role by increasing dissipation to 0.3 HPS but take away its contribution to heat capacity.
Give Clan DHS the same dissipation. Extra Clan DHS outside the engine gain +0.5 heatcap.
Add heat penalties to agility (torso twist rate, arm slewing, acceleration/deceleration, UI flickering) at 60-80% heat capacity to penalise alpha striking and make it a last resort tactic instead of du jour play.

Now everyone has to chainfire lasers; Autocannons are much more powerful, and the high pin-point and range of Gauss is less significant since everyone is firing a lot more often.
Stock SHS mechs are no longer ovens, and in fact approach heat neutrality. The SHS Awesome should be rightly feared; without the need for quirks.
DHS mechs are deadly brawly machines.
IS ACs are more significant, but packing enough heatsinks also allows brawling with lasers if heat is managed well.
Clan mechs allow for greater build diversity since their dissipation/capacity sit in between the IS SHS/DHS role dichotomy, but will need slot investment to groupfire Clan lasers

Role warfare emerges; in the form of an SHS backline and DHS frontline for the IS.

A fundamental refactoring of the heat system will achieve more in a single stroke than years of bandaid quirks and clan nerfs. After that, pinpoint convergence can and should be looked at, but if damage is already spread everywhere due to enforced chainfiring then it becomes less of a contributor to low TTK.
Actually useful SHS also removes a "noob trap" from the game, potentially improving player retention.

Instead of all that work, why not just take each class of Mechs, one at a time and reduce the weapons load-out to one(1) Energy per Arm, one(1) Ballistic and one(1)Missile in opposing Torsos and call it done.

No more meaningful firepower for anyone. That is what everyone wants right? What is the point of "building" Mechs when one can be superior to another, despite that some weight 3x as much as others.

Your Mech will die regardless, or it will survive under any regime. Imagine the outrage of trying to Kill a FS or the newest little ******* Light if Chain fire was you only option? Your kidding right?

At the rate this is going we will soon have Marshmallow guns for all and 14 minute TTK, if we all hurry to the center of the map and focus fire each other.

P.S. Yes I once advocated for forced CF, but now, with things the way they are... not so much. JUST ADD MORE HEAT to EVERYTHING...

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 August 2015 - 07:25 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Almond Brown, on 19 August 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Instead of all that work, why not just take each class of Mechs, one at a time and reduce the weapons load-out to one(1) Energy per Arm, one(1) Ballistic and one(1)Missile in opposing Torsos and call it done.

No more meaningful firepower for anyone. That is what everyone wants right? What is the point of "building" Mechs when one can be superior to another, despite that some weight 3x as much as others.

Your Mech will die regardless, or it will survive under any regime. Imagine the outrage of trying to Kill a FS or the newest little ******* Light if Chain fire was you only option? Your kidding right?

At the rate this is going we will soon have Marshmallow guns for all and 14 minute TTK, if we all hurry to the center of the map and focus fire each other.

P.S. Yes I once advocated for forced CF, but now, with things the way they are... not so much. JUST ADD MORE HEAT to EVERYTHING...

it not even a LOT work to just change a few variable numbers in a database. Whoever changign hardpoints is a lot work, because soemone needs to tweak all laodouts of all stock and trials and champions.

[Almond Brown]

Mazzyplz, on 19 August 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

large pulse damage was excellent and fair at 10.5;

out of the blue pgi raised it to 11 (doesn't seem like much but this is the reason we have a quadrillion pulse boats)

10.5 was perfect; why would you buff it anyways? there was no need.

you made this metagame with your own hand; willing or not

It was not the .5 damage, sorry. Players simply figured out that delivery time of their damage, when reduced, thus reducing exposure times, was the number one thing. Turns out Range is great but having to stay in the open for 2 seconds to deliver it, not so much.

Just look back to the initial Clan Burns times... wowzers. Where are they now? So close to IS times it is pretty much a joke given the extra range they get... Then came the IS Quirks too...

Mazzyplz, on 19 August 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

you know who did this now, and when (check the patch notes for a pulse laser buff)
why? who knows, maybe russ was strolling around in his pulse boat and all of a sudden 12 players jump him at once and shoot erppc. so in a knee jerk, he goes to the development build and changes the number;

that seems like what really happened the more i think about it

I heard Tinfoil Stocks went up just now. You should invest dude...

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 August 2015 - 07:32 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

did you not know that's what made him remove knockdown? lol. sorry if you can't get a reference

the .5 damage was unnecesary

when was laser burn diminished? i was doing ok with the long laser burn, haven't played clan in months

the IS is still pulsing strong from what i can see

[Almond Brown]

Lily from animove, on 19 August 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

it not even a LOT work to just change a few variable numbers in a database. Whoever changign hardpoints is a lot work, because soemone needs to tweak all laodouts of all stock and trials and champions.

Indeed. I was being facetious but none the less. Increase Heat levels across the board. No reason a GR can have 2 Heat and thus everything else gets a 2X increase. Make the builders do the adjusting, the game will play pretty much the same regardless. New Meta will emerge almost immediately but maybe the currently complained about TTK will get a true BUFF...

[Mazzyplz]

the more you think about it; the .5 damage makes a lot of sense;

why would you take a large laser or erll that do 9 damage, 10.5 was a small difference back then - but now it's 2 dmg difference makes the choice more clear; same with ppc; it was only .5 better before and had range tradeoff;

now ppc is inferior to pulse in a quantifiable way, thanks not in small part to pgi writing a .5 bigger number

so why would you take ppc? small things like that can sway the way people build mechs.
that's fact.

i am not so worried about clan laser because clan was using laser always, their other weaps are a bit gimped;

but inner sphere is now boating laser with the help of that .5 buff

and bad hitreg for srm/ppc of course, there is more factors, but still

shows poor judgement to make a buff like that without any sign of it coming, being needed or asked for

[kapusta11]

Holy shіt a whopping 0.5 more damage, this is an outrage!

[Mazzyplz]

may not do much dmg in game to you but it is changing what builds are coming out of the mechbay

[FupDup]

kapusta11, on 19 August 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Holy shіt a whopping 0.5 more damage, this is an outrage!

That's almost as much damage as an MG does after 1 second of firing!

[Mazzyplz]

except pulses were already good, 0.5 is a buff - what did you expect from a single buff - 0.5 is a typical buff; if you multiply it for all the pulses a team has that's a few extra lasers worth in damage, for free

[kapusta11]

FupDup, on 19 August 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

That's almost as much damage as an MG does after 1 second of firing!

Exactly! What we need is MGs buffed.

[Y E O N N E]

The LPL was serviceable before the buff, but not good. I'd argue that bumping its heat down to standard Large Laser levels did more to help its performance than a minor improvement in damage. If we were talking about an increase of 0.6 on a laser dealing 3.4 damage and comes in fives and sixes, then yes, it's huge. Proportionally, it's an increase of 17.6%.

But 0.5 on a big laser that already did 10.6 and only comes in threes or fours is nothing. That's a mere 4.7%. However, the lower heat and longer range make you able to fire for full effect more frequently, and that's the real buff.

[Lily from animove]

Mazzyplz, on 19 August 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

except pulses were already good, 0.5 is a buff - what did you expect from a single buff - 0.5 is a typical buff; if you multiply it for all the pulses a team has that's a few extra lasers worth in damage, for free

no they weren't on the entire line of laserrangs the pulselasers could not jsutify their weight vs the regular lasers on the IS side.
Only on the clanside did pulses well, because clans already paid for the "ER upgrade" with a lot of extra heat"

So PGI buffing pulselasers was to bring them in line with the IS non pulse which are alot lighter, much cooler and had the total upperhand on comparison to the pulses.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mazzyplz, on 19 August 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

except pulses were already good, 0.5 is a buff - what did you expect from a single buff - 0.5 is a typical buff; if you multiply it for all the pulses a team has that's a few extra lasers worth in damage, for free

Seriously? Pulse lasers were almost never used before that buff. Hotter, shorter range, and heavier? No thanks.

[Almond Brown]

Mazzyplz, on 19 August 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

except pulses were already good, 0.5 is a buff - what did you expect from a single buff - 0.5 is a typical buff; if you multiply it for all the pulses a team has that's a few extra lasers worth in damage, for free

Pulses weigh much more and have less range (clan exemption of course) . So they get their payoff when their optimal range is met with more damage and similar HEAT. Getting to optimal for the pay off is the key. An additional .5 damage per carried unit is not all that much when half your protection (armor) is gone when you finally reach it. The better the player, the more armor still left upon arrival.

You want to compare stuff. The IS SPL is a crazy good weapon @4 damage for 2 heat and weigh 1t. Again, just need to get to optimal, and the SPL has more than 3X the DPS/T than that of a LPL. Pretty much a WTF kinds of deal really. Especially when their are Mechs across all weight classes that can pack between 8 and 12 units per.

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 August 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Almond Brown, on 19 August 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

Agreed 100% but the "Common Sense" portion has to come from the Player base.

Yeah, that's what's so scary.

[Ordin Hall]

"THIS THING NEEDS NERFS"

Or maybe other things just need buffs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Weapons that could use minor buffs:

AC2
CUAC 2
CUAC 5 - higher velocity IMO
AC10
MGs (I guess)
IS ER PPC
IS Small lasers

Major buffs:
Flamers
Gauss rifles (jk)

[Dimento Graven]

cdlord, on 17 August 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

No specific mechs, no specific faction, no specific side, no specific laser, no specific quirk; as it should be.

Lasers across the board need substantial nerfs.

When I see 90% of mechs in matches run laserboats, there's something wrong. Had the honor of getting stomped by a well known comp group and guess what, they were all running laserboats. Nary a missile or AC among them.

And a nerf doesn't even have to apply to a laser, could be a general heat rescale.

#bringthehatred

WRONG!

What is needed is an ACTUAL heat affects table, THAT is the problem with all the massive boat builds we currently have.

What we have is this:

What we NEED is something like this:

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 August 2015 - 09:17 AM.