232 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Really the issue is the 50+alpha pulse laser spam with pin point damage. Next issue is the stupid crit system with clan computers blowing a mech apart as soon as the armor is gone.

[Aresye]

How about everyone learns how to torso twist damage? It isn't hard, and it turns that 50 pinpoint laser alpha into small fragments of 5-10 damage over multiple components.

The standard 2PPC+2AC5 meta had 30 pinpoint, FLD damage. TTK was actually LOWER during the poptarting Victor days, because there is no way to spread FLD.

The problem isn't lasers. The problem is all the players who stand still and tank the full duration of a laser burn into their CT.

[Spleenslitta]

Why not make some kinda mechanic that forces players to use a more flexible loadout? You could even get rid of Ghost Heat while you're at it.
For example a reactor energy bar. Everything consumes energy that has to be recharged by the mech engine.
The faster you move the more energy you use, using JJ's, ECM and weapons consume energy. Lasers use more energy than ballistics and so on.
Cooling down consumes energy too since heatsinks need energy to work. The hotter you are the more energy it takes to get rid of 1 point of heat.

Unforgiving mechanic and hard for newcomers to learn? So what....Then we would have fewer boats, longer Time To Kill and the game would take more skill to master.
More skill to master means more fun instead of simple click to shoot....wait.....click again.

[CDLord HHGD]

@ Gas Guzzler
Read past the title please. Lasers themselves need not be directly nerfed. There are ideas posted that have merit that have nothing to do directly with lasers.

And a big LOL to those saying they'll refund R2 if lasers got nerfed. As said many times in more games than just this one, in the dynamic world of an online game the ONLY thing you can count on is things will change. The knee-jerk refundists are usually just looking for an excuse to make it sound like your buck is worth more than mine or anyone else's. I will not be refunding R2 regardless of what happens.

[Spleenslitta]

You actually liked my suggestion Cdlord? I'd figured i'd catch loads of flak for that....Not that i wanted to be yelled and hounded.
I'm not a perv after all. Ok.....i'm a guy and we're all a bunch of pervs at heart. But just not that kinda perv you know. XP

Oh well. Thanks for the support anyhow Cdlord.

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 17 August 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

@ Gas Guzzler
Read past the title please. Lasers themselves need not be directly nerfed. There are ideas posted that have merit that have nothing to do directly with lasers.

And a big LOL to those saying they'll refund R2 if lasers got nerfed. As said many times in more games than just this one, in the dynamic world of an online game the ONLY thing you can count on is things will change. The knee-jerk refundists are usually just looking for an excuse to make it sound like your buck is worth more than mine or anyone else's. I will not be refunding R2 regardless of what happens.

Okay I skimmed them, but its all people wanting TTK longer because they have trouble spreading damage I guess, or try to stand in front of a firing line.

As far as refunding R2, I would have a tough time doing that, but I would be VERY PUT OUT if there was an across the board laser nerf. As it is, IS laser vomit is only good with substantial quirks. I bought R2 because I counted on them getting at least "okay" quirks, and would therefore be at least somewhat effective, like Grasshopper level of effectiveness at least, which isn't asking too much.

[Graugger]

Sounds like the route Mechwarriors competitor Earthsiege took using energy levels instead of heat. Certainly made ballistics and missiles more enticing.

A mixture of the two concepts would be nice to see.

An old suggestion I had was instead of doing the reactor power thing was to get rid of ghost heat and have the cooldown of your energy weapons determined by the number fired and charging at the time.

[FupDup]

This is what happens when you nerf PPCs and ACs, and also what happens when you let LRMs be a binary weapon for so long.

Also, some mechs will pretty much ALWAYS be energy/laser dependent no matter what we do to balance. Lasers offer a low-tonnage option for many mechs that lack the pod space to boat ballistics and missiles. This mostly applies to lights and many mediums, and even a few heavies/assaults (like the Summoner and Gargoyle).

Dakka and whoosh are just too heavy to work on many mechs.

[Nightmare1]

Almond Brown, on 17 August 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

So you DO NOT want PGI to listen to the Players then???? Ever... Remember that PGI only Nerfs based on the most QQ and whiney Posts they receive from the Players.

I just wish that some common sense would prevail.

Aresye Kerensky, on 17 August 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

How about everyone learns how to torso twist damage? It isn't hard, and it turns that 50 pinpoint laser alpha into small fragments of 5-10 damage over multiple components.

The standard 2PPC+2AC5 meta had 30 pinpoint, FLD damage. TTK was actually LOWER during the poptarting Victor days, because there is no way to spread FLD.

The problem isn't lasers. The problem is all the players who stand still and tank the full duration of a laser burn into their CT.

This!!! I've been saying this for a long time now!!!

[DivineEvil]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

Nope. The problem isnt high heat capacity. The problem is ghost heat is too easily circumvented.

By linking CERML and CLPL in the same ghost heat group, the problem would largely be solved. Linking the two weapons would massively increase the heat generated by CERML/CLPL laser vomit and would largely have the same effect as lowering heat capacity. The difference is, lowering heat capacity across the board nerfs ALL weapons that generate heat, even the ones that arnt a problem, while a ghost heat update only nerfs the weapons that are causing problems.

Im not saying the heat system isnt screwed up, it definitely is, but expecting a heatscale revamp is simply not being realistic. This game is 3 years in development theyre not going to strip out a core aspect of the game and completely redo it. The reality is were stuck with the current heat system, and any fixes that we come up with need to work within the confines of the current heat system.

Yes ghost heat is awful and I hate it but the truth is its not going anywhere... so lets at least make sure ghost heat is doing what its supposed to be doing which is stopping crap like laser vomit.

The ghost-heat itself is an attempt to migitate boating without affecting heat capacity. What causese the problem is alpha-strike emhasis in general, which does not rewards direct confrontations and brawling and does not punishes "fire everything!" combat tactics. The entire gameplay of PUG and CW right now is different mechs peeking and firing different lasers at each-other, with ocassional UltraWhale and GaussWolfs, which are also screwed quickly by laser pokers. DPS mechs work well only in premade groups and only if they can overrun pokers before taking any significant damage from them.

This is allowed by the notion of having 30 base heat capacity, which means, that having a 250 rated engine with DHS and heat capacity mastery unlocked gives you 60 heat capacity, which is more than enough for almost any laser-vomit build working unhindered, and adding extra heatsinks or losing them in combat does not affect heat efficiency nearly enough. Heat capacity in its core is what controls how much weapons you can fire at once, and heat dispersion/cooldown is what affects your potential DPS. Since there's no such thing as "base dispersion" and base heat capacity is that high, DPS weapons are always at disadvantage.

Thus the only way to fix the issue is to reduce the base capacity and increase per-heatsink dispersion to give DPS weapons a higher edge. It might just as well negate the need for ghost-heat mechanics in significant degree, since both are adressing similar issues.

[kapusta11]

PGI shouldn't have nerfed LRMs that much by putting ECM on everything, now casual players' self-esteem dropped to zero.

[Gas Guzzler]

kapusta11, on 17 August 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

PGI shouldn't have nerfed LRMs that much by putting ECM on everything, now casual players' self-esteem dropped to zero.

The increase of ECM mechs should be offset by the dramatic reduction in ECM's effective range. As much as people say "it won't make a difference" it certainly will, and will require more mechs carry to ECM to get the same coverage.

[Graugger]

Lazors need buffs!

[Spleenslitta]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

The increase of ECM mechs should be offset by the dramatic reduction in ECM's effective range. As much as people say "it won't make a difference" it certainly will, and will require more mechs carry to ECM to get the same coverage.

Especially if they decide that ECM disrupt mode will only work for the mech equipped with ECM.
If that happens ECM equipped mechs won't be the team babysitters anymore. The team won't bother asking me to follow those slow assault mechs all over the place.

[FupDup]

Graugger, on 17 August 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

Lazors need buffs!

Actually, I DO think that a few of the IS lasers might be just a tidge too weak, mainly the IS SL...

[Jack Shayu Walker]

A heat based nerf to lasers (and not ERPPCs) would be very understandable , just don't touch my damage.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 17 August 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

A heat based nerf to lasers (and not ERPPCs) would be very understandable , just don't touch my damage.

If by nerf you mean lowering IS ML heat then by all means.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

If by nerf you mean lowering IS ML SL heat then by all means.

Fixed.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

If by nerf you mean lowering IS ML heat then by all means.

Yeah, as a clan player I find the lower damage IS lasers to be majorly lackluster; I feel like they need some love. All I am saying is please don't ruin the clan small lasers, they're so fun without being overpowered.

[Lugh]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 17 August 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Yeah, as a clan player I find the lower damage IS lasers to be majorly lackluster; I feel like they need some love. All I am saying is please don't ruin the clan small lasers, they're so fun without being overpowered.

But they have less heat and can fire more frequently, at a lower burn times so they have more time to twist to mitigate incoming damage.